Soluble Fiber Causes Liver Cancer, Insoluble And Antibiotics Prevent/stop It

[Wagner83]

How do people eat a diet high in saturated fats without dairy?

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Anti-Microbial, Anti-Fungal Carrot Salad 2.0

 

[CLASH]

@Wagner83

Beef tallow, cocoa butter, coconut oil. Dairy fat should be ok, I should have clarified I meant dairy protein. I do think that the hormone content of dairy fat can cause issues for some people though. I personally use a 50/50 mix of coconut oil and beef tallow, giving me about 148g of fat per day, 93g saturated, 34g monounsaturated, 7g polyunsaturated (this is in the context of 3400kcal/ day so the PUFA is less than 2% of calories within peats range of 4g/2000kcal per day and within the ratio mentioned by haidut of 10:1 saturated to PUFA).

 

[SOMO]

How do people eat a diet high in saturated fats without dairy?

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Anti-Microbial, Anti-Fungal Carrot Salad 2.0

1. Coconut oil
2. Grass-fed Beef (about half-MUFA, half-SFA.)
3. Tallow
4. Suet
5. Cocoa Butter
6. Chocolate

Butter/Ghee can be enjoyed by people who can't digest dairy, unless they're against dairy for ethical/moral reasons. (I'm not sure if most would consider this "dairy" because even lactose-intolerant people can have butter. Is the person abstaining from dairy for health or moral reasons?)

Not ideal, but these are still fine if you're eating out/social gatherings (higher in SFA and lower in PUFA than other vegetable oils)
6. Olive Oil
7. Palm Oil




Also the ratio of SFA:PUFA matters too.
Another "way" you can eat a "high" SFA diet is to simply reduce/abstain from PUFA.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks. Most of these are void of nutrition besides calories, beef does contribute depending on which parts are eaten but it isn't a high fat food.

 

[CLASH]

@Wagner83
The fatty acids are nutrition. In regards to the micronutrients those would come from your protein sources (beef/ seafood) and fruits and vegetables. The only micro I have a hard time getting is calcium, everything else is more than met. I dont think purely focusing on micros is a good idea. Carbs and fats are just as important as calcium, magnesium, b vit, vit d etc.

 

[Amazoniac]

There's enough variety for it to be useful.

What you're saying is that we shouldn't recommend anything on the basis that it won't apply to everybody?

A forum is not a one-on-one conversation. It's a place to share knowledge and experiences. The reader has to make his own conclusion.

You can kill any discussion with these kind of arguments.
You may also react allergenic to a lot of foods on those list.

And yes, some people react bad on insoluble fiber.
I have not always react well, when my digestion was horrible.
Some may initially react well on soluble fiber and finally end up worse.
That was the case for me (and with the mice in the study).

At this moment, if I increase nonfermentable fiber, it increases my amount of stools in a day.
On the other hand, fermentable fiber increases my gas production a lot.
This list may be useful if you have a small house and a girlfriend that is sensitive to smells.

My main concern with the list is that I don't understand that bamboo shoots and carrots are so low.
I guess they may have other anti-microbial action that resists fermentation of soluble fiber.

Even if the ratio was reliable as a guide, you don't know the actual amounts: you can have a desired ratio but negligible carb content. According to the list lentils should be a safe food, but it can be problematic for a lot of people. There can be too much fermentantion along with retention.

It's also about the quality of the carbs, some are inaccessible to germs. There are people who have solved their gut issues with garlic, which is quite fermentable, but has all the protective antimicrobials along (Lancaster, 2017).

There's the tolerance aspect as well, because you can do fine on some foods irrespective of their fiber content.
And then you have meals, which make everything more complex.
People will seek some crunchy foods for roughage when they're selecting their diets. They will also shy away from a food when it doesn't agree with them.

So the point is indeed discarding such list, it's just not useful, unless you're after the sense of control that it gives (Jennifer, 2017).

If I had created this thread, I would title it:
Excess fermentable carbs in dysbiosis damage the liver and can cause cancro

 

[Henry]

...Over the years he has consistently recommended insoluble fiber, such as found in carrots/mushrooms/bamboo, while recommending explicitly against soluble fiber such as pectin and other fermentable starches...

This sentence is misleading, as it mixes the term soluble/insoluble with fermentable/infermentable, while the two dont imply the same. It also suggests that the above foods only contain insoluble fiber, which is not correct.

In fact, carrot - in wide contrast to wheat bran - is as nearly as fermentable as apples in humans (1). This can be seen in a study in humans in which consumption of raw carrot significantly increases breath hydrogen, showing that carrot consumption - in contrast to peatarian claims - increases numbers of gut bacteria and fermentation (2).

1. Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI
2. The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Mufasa]

This sentence is misleading, as it mixes the term soluble/insoluble with fermentable/infermentable, while the two dont imply the same. It also suggests that the above foods only contain insoluble fiber, which is not correct.

In fact, carrot - in wide contrast to wheat bran - is as nearly as fermentable as apples in humans (1). This can be seen in a study in humans in which consumption of raw carrot significantly increases breath hydrogen, showing that carrot consumption - in contrast to peatarian claims - increases numbers of gut bacteria and fermentation (2).

1. Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI
2. The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI

Can you include quotes of the study that support the claims you make here. I could not find it in the abstract.

 

[somuch4food]

@CLASH I think you are unto something. We couldn't have developed our brains without the fuel from added sugars and fats. My cognitive function is improving since upping saturated fats.

I remember my grandma always peeling cucumbers. My father was telling her that most nutrients are in the peel and that she should not peel it. Something went wrong between those two generations... More media, more education, more propaganda.

It might be a lack of fruits and veggies when I was younger that caused my digestive issues.

Was you're dairy with added D3? I'm suspecting that the additional D3 makes the body absorb too much calcium which is constipating in itself.

 

[Henry]

Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI:

Wheat bran. The wheat bran preparation contained 597 g dietary fibre/kg consisting mainly
of arabinose, xylose, glucose and lignin in expected proportions (Table 1).
The fermentative breakdown of the dietary fibre saccharides averaged 34% in man and
41 % in rat (Table 1 and Fig. 1). The faecal recovery of the main components, arabinose,
xylose and glucose were respectively: 73, 45 and 93% in man and 63, 48 and 68% in rat.
Thus, xylose values were similar in man and rat, whereas faecal excretions of arabinose
(P < 0.01) and glucose (P < 0.05) were higher in man.
Apple. The apple fibre preparation studied contained 766 g dietary fibre/kg, with
approximately 50% glucose and 20% uronic acids. Significant amounts of arabinose,
xylose, galactose and lignin were also detected (Table 2).
The fermentability of the fibre in appie was very similar in both man and rat. The faecal
recovery of the neutral sugars averaged 19% in man and 22% in rat (Table 2 and Fig. 1).
Excretion of the main components arabinose, xylose, galactose and glucose was also similar
in the two species. Although there was considerable individual variation in both man and
rat given this material, the mean values were in good agreement.
Cabbage. The dietary fibre content in the cabbage preparation was 703 g/kg. Approximately
70% of the fibre consisted of glucose and uronic acids. Other fibre components
detected in significant amounts were arabinose and galactose (Table 3).
Cabbage was an easily fermented dietary fibre and only 10 and 13% of the neutral-fibre
saccharides were recovered in faeces from man and rat respectively (Table 3 and Fig. 1).
Both species showed similar ability to degrade the main components, arabinose, galactose
and glucose.
Carrot. The total dietary fibre content in the carrot preparation was 799 g/kg. The relative
distribution of main components was rather similar to that in cabbage (Table 4).
Similar amounts of the neutral fibre-saccharides were recovered in faeces in both species.
The faecal recovery was 25% in man v. 29% in rats (Table 4 and Fig. 1). The main
neutral-dietary-fibre components arabinose, galactose and glucose also showed a similar
availability to bacterial breakdown. However, there was large individual variation,
especially in the human experiment.
Guar gum. Guar gum, which is a rather pure galactomannan, was almost completely
fermented in rat, whereas in man it seemed somewhat more resistant (Table 5). Of the
neutral sugars 13% were excreted in man v. 4% in rat. However, during the guar-gum
feeding period in man, additional xylose, glucose and rhamnose + fucose appeared in the
faeces. The additional fucose and possibly some of the glucose excreted could be explained
by increased mucus secretion. However, most of the glucose excretion was derived from
a glucan that had many of the characteristics of starch in vitro. The large standard deviation
of glucose is because one subject excreted very large quantities of this materiaf. In the rat
experiment glucan excretion, corrected for free glucose, was 75% of the ingested amount.
The glucan, however, was a minor component (< 10 g/kg) in the guar-gum preparation,
and the rat experiment did not provide evidence for faecal starch excretion during feeding
with guar gum. Excluding the faecal excretion of these non-fibre saccharides and only
considering the excretion of the main fibre components mannose and galactose improved
the correlation between man and rat. Less than 2% of the mannose and the galactose were
recovered in the faeces of both species (Fig. 1 and Table 6).

The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI:

The total breath hydrogen increased by the
3rd week from 17 to 39 ppm. The increase
did not occur until 10 days after the start of
eating carrot.

 

[Wagner83]

How do people eat a diet high in saturated fats without dairy?

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Anti-Microbial, Anti-Fungal Carrot Salad 2.0

Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI:


The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI:

Thanks for making the effort to post them.

@Wagner83
The fatty acids are nutrition. In regards to the micronutrients those would come from your protein sources (beef/ seafood) and fruits and vegetables. The only micro I have a hard time getting is calcium, everything else is more than met. I dont think purely focusing on micros is a good idea. Carbs and fats are just as important as calcium, magnesium, b vit, vit d etc.

It sounds a bit similar to VisionofStrength mct oil - based diet. I'm sure you are great at monitoring your health so it's interesting to hear about your ideas.

Regarding fibers it may be helpful to note the difference in stools smell and gas produced between various types of fibrous foods, although I don't know if the organism adapts to what is regularly part of the diet as Ray suggested before. If so, could initial bad reactions be ignored?

 

[Collden]

This only occurred in genetically engineered mice with severely altered gut immune function, and even in these mice it only occurred when the fiber was added to a highly refined diet, but not when the fiber was added to standard unrefined chow. I doubt you can extend these findings to consumption of fiber from whole foods. Several studies find consumption of legumes and other dietary fiber is inversely associated with liver cancer and liver disease in humans.

Maybe yes certain people should stay away from dietary fiber, and certainly using refined fiber supplements rather than whole foods seem like a bad idea. But it is way overstating these results to say that consuming fibrous foods is generally unhealthy.

 

[Amazoniac]

20 min have passed and I'm feeling guilty right now for using a different account just to pretend that I'm not alone with this thought.

 

[somuch4food]

But it is way overstating these results to say that consuming fibrous foods is generally unhealthy.

Good point. I like controversial radical opinions though as it makes me question my current approach.

I won't be avoiding fibers, but there could be something to balance here. I seem to eat too much soluble fibers and less insoluble fibers. Soluble fibers draw water and increase stool volume which can contribute to constipation.

I also seem to enjoy/crave high insoluble fiber foods like brown rice and pinto beans.

 

[somuch4food]

20 min have passed and I'm feeling guilty right now for using a different account just to pretend that I'm not alone with this thought.

Your interventions are still useful to the thread. They will help others think things through before going overboard and become obsessed with fibers.

You have made a good job reminding that the journey to health is a very personal one.

 

[Suikerbuik]

And personal it is. For me a daily carrot salad is definitely stimulating microbial growth and fermentation after a week of continued use. You could argue about transit time, but very often my morning toilet visit reveals what I have eaten the night before.
Why does no one mention psyllium husk is that too old-fashioned?

 

[Mufasa]

And personal it is. For me a daily carrot salad is definitely stimulating microbial growth and fermentation after a week of continued use. You could argue about transit time, but very often my morning toilet visit reveals what I have eaten the night before.

How do you know it stimulates microbial growth?
If the carrots end up in your stool, I guess not all of it is fermented.
Also, IIRC, fermentable fibers decrease transit time and unfermentable fibers increase it.

Why does no one mention psyllium husk is that too old-fashioned?

Well, I was looking more for fibers with a high insoluble/soluble ratio. Psyllium husk has probably one of the lowest of all fibers.

 

[Suikerbuik]

How do you know it stimulates microbial growth?
If the carrots end up in your stool, I guess not all of it is fermented.
Also, IIRC, fermentable fibers decrease transit time and unfermentable fibers increase it.

Gas production, bloating but most annoying a weird but profound change in breath composition; a persistent 'taste/smell' of a dilute vinegar drink comes most close. I have not been able to do a hydrogen breath test during these events unfortunately, if I leave carrots aside or use them occassionaly everything becomes normal soon. I have been tested for sibo and that test was negative.

Well, I was looking more for fibers with a high insoluble/soluble ratio. Psyllium husk has probably one of the lowest of all fibers.

But psyllium is resistant to fermentation and has been mentioned by Ray. For me it's a safe fiber and I have been using it to substitute the carrot fiber.

 

[Mufasa]

Gas production, bloating but most annoying a weird but profound change in breath composition; a persistent 'taste/smell' of a dilute vinegar drink comes most close. I have not been able to do a hydrogen breath test during these events unfortunately, if I leave carrots aside or use them occassionaly everything becomes normal soon. I have been tested for sibo and that test was negative.



But psyllium is resistant to fermentation and has been mentioned by Ray. For me it's a safe fiber and I have been using it to substitute the carrot fiber.

RAY PEAT: Starches and indigestible fibers have been tested on various animals, from horses to rats and practically all of the fibers that are used as food additives carrageenan and guar gum, various other gums, oat bran and even some of the semi-synthetic things, Metamucil, agar and psyllium, all have been identified as carcinogens for the intestine and possibly other organs and getting those out quickly before they support bacterial growth...

 

[Dave Clark]

And personal it is. For me a daily carrot salad is definitely stimulating microbial growth and fermentation after a week of continued use. You could argue about transit time, but very often my morning toilet visit reveals what I have eaten the night before.
Why does no one mention psyllium husk is that too old-fashioned?

Wondering myself. If psyllium seed husk is almost all soluble fiber, why do so many people (especially older people) have such great luck using it for constipation? Didn't really want to get into this fiber debate, but some here say that eventually the soluble fiber contributes to constipation, yet no one I know that uses soluble fiber products, or eats soluble fiber foods complain about constipation, in fact, they rave that they rely on it to keep them regular. I know some say it keeps you regular because it is a gut irritant, which I suppose is part of the debate. There are some health experts that say psyllium seed helps seal leaky gut. I know for me, I don't use it regularly, but if I get a bout of constipation, I take a tablespoon of psyllium seed husk, and it works like a charm. Carrots do nothing for me in terms of relieving constipation, neither does wheat.