Soluble Fiber Causes Liver Cancer, Insoluble And Antibiotics Prevent/stop It

[Tarmander]

I find this one of the most difficult things to grapple with from Peat. Carrots are almost half soluble fiber from their fiber content. Many awesome fruits like Pears or berries all have decent amounts of soluble fiber. I am all for avoiding supplementing it, but it seems very difficult to avoid.

Top 20 Foods High in Soluble Fiber

 

[Mufasa]

I find this one of the most difficult things to grapple with from Peat. Carrots are almost half soluble fiber from their fiber content. Many awesome fruits like Pears or berries all have decent amounts of soluble fiber. I am all for avoiding supplementing it, but it seems very difficult to avoid.

Top 20 Foods High in Soluble Fiber

Maybe it is possible to be soluble but still non fermentable? It is clear that carrots dont ferment as quickly as an apple which has less soluble fiber.

 

[Cirion]

And that's in line with this quote:

Perhaps one of the most controversial topics in Peat-land is fiber. Over the years he has consistently recommended insoluble fiber, such as found in carrots/mushrooms/bamboo, while recommending explicitly against soluble fiber such as pectin and other fermentable starches. I think in one of his interviews he said something along the lines of "For people with low metabolism or sensitive GI tract, intake of fermentable starches should be zero". In addition, he has explicitly cautioned against pectin and resistant starches found in whole grain bread, legumes, and some roots.

Fermentable starches should be zero. That is going to be difficult to do lol

*FOUND THE FULL QUOTE*

5. Starch can irritate the gut lining, and starch granules can enter the bloodstream and urine (persorption) inappropriately. Chronic irritation of the gut lining makes serotonin, endotoxin, nitric oxide, and estrogen serious threats to the metabolism, the liver, and overall well being. Persorption promotes tissue injury and circulatory issues.

“Persorption refers to a process in which relatively large particles pass through the intact wall of the intestine and enter the blood or lymphatic vessels. It can be demonstrated easily, but food regulators prefer to act as though it didn’t exist. The doctrine that polymers–gums, starches, peptides, polyester fat substitutes–and other particulate substances can be safely added to food because they are “too large to be absorbed” is very important to the food industry and its shills.

When the bowel is inflamed, toxins are absorbed. The natural bacterial endotoxin produces many of the same inflammatory effects as the food additive, carrageenan. Like inflammatory bowel disease, the incidence of liver tumors and cirrhosis has increased rapidly. Liver damage leads to hormonal imbalance. Carrageenan produces inflammation and immunodeficiency, synergizing with estrogen, endotoxin and unsaturated fatty acids.”

“In the presence of bacterial endotoxin, respiratory energy production fails in the cells lining the intestine. Nitric oxide is probably the main mediator of this effect.”

“Intestinal inflammation is often behind recurrent tooth infectons, and a daily raw carrot can make a big difference (along with avoiding legumes, undercooked starches and raw or undercooked vegetables).”

“Volkheimer found that mice fed raw starch aged at an abnormally fast rate, and when he dissected the starch-fed mice, he found a multitude of blocked arterioles in every organ, each of which caused the death of the cells that depended on the blood supplied by that arteriole. It isn’t hard to see how this would affect the functions of organs such as the brain and heart, even without considering the immunological and other implications….”

“Tiny particles of insoluble materials — clay, starch, soot, bacteria — are all potential sources of serious inflammatory reactions, and the ultra-small particles are potentially ultra-numerous and harder to avoid.”

“Around 1988 I read Gerhard Volkheimer’s persorption article, and after doing some experiments with tortillas and masa, I stopped eating all starch except for those, then eventually I stopped those. Besides grains of starch entering the blood stream, lymph, and cerebral spinal fluid, starch feeds bacteria, increasing endotoxin and serotonin.”

“For people with really sensitive intestines or bad bacteria, starch should be zero.”

he says ALL starch should be avoided in the case of gut problems (can't be more clear than saying starch should be ZERO... well I've tried that before and it didn't work for me, why would that be? I tried an OJ/Milk/cheese/syrup/fruit diet before, and still had bloat issues. I feel like he is ignoring the fermentable carbohydrate problem, and that plenty of sugars do cause problems.

 

[Amazoniac]

I did mention some of these disclaimers in the beginning of my post. I said that inulin was a causative "precursor" that depended on dysbiosis for causing HCC. Btw, they also found pectin and FOS to be just as bad, so it is not like they are picking on inulin.
I also suggested that antibiotics could be tried to prevent the HCC. Avoiding soluble fiber completely is probably unrealistic, so it might be better to focus on the insoluble/soluble ratio instead of the absolute soluble amount, just as I mentioned in a previous response in regards to SFA/PUFA ratio.

The title is 'soluble fiber causes liver cancer..'. The logical step then is to reduce its intake. But the actual percentages have no practical relevance for the reasons mentioned before. The ratio maybe, but it can distract from more important aspects such as the vigor of intestinal activity.

It's common to find people here worsening their constipation by upping their non-fermetable carbs intake, so it can backfire. Some carbs in milk are fermentable and they don't cause problems for others. Fermentable to non-fermentable carbs ratio isn't a good guide to food selection, especially because it's another distraction to the intuition of choosing which ones do and don't work.

If I appear to be netpickling, it's not my intention, I'm just questioning because it helps to avoid issues of even information input on the forum, similar to the single fiber to the animals.

 

[Braveheart]

Lists of High Fiber Foods, Soluble and Insoluble Fiber Chart
- LINK
edit - LINK 2

good list/chart...thanks!

 

[Cirion]

The title is 'soluble fiber causes liver cancer..'. The logical step then is to reduce its intake. But the actual percentages have no practical relevance for the reasons mentioned before. The ratio maybe, but it can distract from more important aspects such as the vigor of intestinal activity.

It's common to find people here worsening their constipation by upping their non-fermetable carbs intake, so it can backfire. Some carbs in milk are fermentable and they don't cause problems for others. Fermentable to non-fermentable carbs ratio isn't a good guide to food selection, especially because it's another distraction to the intuition of choosing which ones do and don't work.

If I appear to be netpickling, it's not my intention, I'm just questioning because it helps to avoid issues of even information input on the forum, similar to the single fiber to the animals.

That's fair. But then what's the solution for folk like me with pretty bad bacterial problems, when a simple carrot or two, mushrooms, avoiding starches etc (the generic advice) doesn't really seem to work for? The "sensible" answers like eat a balanced diet don't really work for someone like me I need a more drastic solution (like antibiotics) it seems (Tried low FODMAP for a while and that also did not work, well it made me lose weight, but the moment I introduced carbs back in the diet, the bloat came back) and because low FODMAP brought my carbs down, it also brought my metabolism down with it, so this is not a good solution to ever recommend IMO.

 

[haidut]

The title is 'soluble fiber causes liver cancer..'. The logical step then is to reduce its intake. But the actual percentages have no practical relevance for the reasons mentioned before. The ratio maybe, but it can distract from more important aspects such as the vigor of intestinal activity.

It's common to find people here worsening their constipation by upping their non-fermetable carbs intake, so it can backfire. Some carbs in milk are fermentable and they don't cause problems for others. Fermentable to non-fermentable carbs ratio isn't a good guide to food selection, especially because it's another distraction to the intuition of choosing which ones do and don't work.

If I appear to be netpickling, it's not my intention, I'm just questioning because it helps to avoid issues of even information input on the forum, similar to the single fiber to the animals.

Noted, I just can't pack the information from the entire study in the title After all, the title of the study itself is "...Fermentation of Soluble Fiber Induces Cholestatic Liver Cancer", so my title is still accurate. Especially in the context of Peat's repeated recommendations about avoiding soluble fiber (especially pectin) in favor of insoluble one.

 

[Amazoniac]

That's fair. But then what's the solution for folk like me with pretty bad bacterial problems, when a simple carrot or two, mushrooms, avoiding starches etc (the generic advice) doesn't really seem to work for? The "sensible" answers like eat a balanced diet don't really work for someone like me I need a more drastic solution (like antibiotics) it seems (Tried low FODMAP for a while and that also did not work, well it made me lose weight, but the moment I introduced carbs back in the diet, the bloat came back) and because low FODMAP brought my carbs down, it also brought my metabolism down with it, so this is not a good solution to ever recommend IMO.

A good place to start is to not trick cravings by following the generic advice. Then there's this:

In hypothyroidism there is little stomach acid, and other digestive juices (and even intestinal movement) are inadequate, so gas and constipation are common. Foods aren't assimilated well, so even on a seemingly adequate diet there is "internal malnutrition."

If something is interfering with your nutrition and diet isn't enough, you should address it with supplements. Topical application is useful to nourish yourself but not any present infection. Instead of having a cooperating gut, you might have one working against you, so sometimes temporary supernutrition is needed to correct issues.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks. I have been taking AC every day lately with no visible results on my very bloated gut. I am starting to think antibiotics is my only option or going on a fairly strict high insoluble fiber to soluble fiber ratio for a while. I think like many other things (like the SFA/PUFA) ratio the more unhealthy you are the more you have to be strict on the ratios (higher) so I can't afford to cheat at all on either PUFA or soluble fiber that much it seems whereas someone who is healthy can get away with more PUFA and soluble fibers probably. How would I even convince a Dr. to prescribe me antibiotics? I'm guessing the average Dr. wouldn't do so "just because I think it will help my bloated belly"?

Either that or try taking thyroid. I have been trying to fix myself as best as I can through diet alone, but maybe that's just not possible.

There are some other over the counter gut cleaning options you could try, like Flowers of Sulfur, Lactoferrin, and products like "biofilm defense." You could also try digestive enzymes, or cascara or emodin. There's also places like All Day Chemist were you don't need a prescription for antibiotics.

 

[Mufasa]

Insoluble/Soluble ratio
Rice, brown, cooked 16.5
Lentils, cooked from dried 12.0
Wheat Bran (Arrowhead Mills) 11.5
Cashews 11.3
Mushrooms, cooked fresh 10.3
Tomato, raw 9
Almond 8.9
Blueberries 8.8
Pine nuts – pignolias 8.7
Pineapple 8.5
Raspberries 8.3
Coconut, fresh 8.15
Lettuce, iceberg 7.0
Quinoa, cooked 6.8
Persimmon 6.6
Tortilla, corn 6.0
Spinach, cooked 5.83
Dates 5.1
Cocoa powder, unsweetened 5.0
Rice, white, regular cooking, cooked 5.0
Guava 4.93
Blackberries 4.4
Pecans 4.1
Tomato paste 4.1
Bread, whole wheat 4.0
Squash, summer (green or yellow) cooked 4.0
Macadamia 3.8
Couscous, cooked 3.5
Kiwi 3.3
Banana 3.0
Spinach, raw 3.0
Cranberries 3.0
Cauliflower, cooked fresh 2.8
Strawberries 2.67
Bamboo shoots 2.6
Apple 2.4
Cherries 2.3
Nectarine 1.8
Sweet potato, cooked 1.7
Grapes 1.7
Pear 1.63
Mango 1.5
Oatmeal, dry 1.2
Carrots, raw 1.1
Papaya 1.1
Bread, white 1.0
Figs 0.9
Potato, boiled, without skin 0.8
Orange 0.7

Source: Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

 

[somuch4food]

Instead of having a cooperating gut, you might have one working against you, so sometimes temporary supernutrition is needed to correct issues.

I agree. I focus more on food quality and less on symptoms. Some digestive discomfort might be necessary on the path to recovery. Obviously, anything that keeps you in bed/on the toilet should be avoided.

 

[Amazoniac]

Insoluble/Soluble ratio
Rice, brown, cooked 16.5
Lentils, cooked from dried 12.0
Wheat Bran (Arrowhead Mills) 11.5
Cashews 11.3
Mushrooms, cooked fresh 10.3
Tomato, raw 9
Almond 8.9
Blueberries 8.8
Pine nuts – pignolias 8.7
Pineapple 8.5
Raspberries 8.3
Coconut, fresh 8.15
Lettuce, iceberg 7.0
Quinoa, cooked 6.8
Persimmon 6.6
Tortilla, corn 6.0
Spinach, cooked 5.83
Dates 5.1
Cocoa powder, unsweetened 5.0
Rice, white, regular cooking, cooked 5.0
Guava 4.93
Blackberries 4.4
Pecans 4.1
Tomato paste 4.1
Bread, whole wheat 4.0
Squash, summer (green or yellow) cooked 4.0
Macadamia 3.8
Couscous, cooked 3.5
Kiwi 3.3
Banana 3.0
Spinach, raw 3.0
Cranberries 3.0
Cauliflower, cooked fresh 2.8
Strawberries 2.67
Bamboo shoots 2.6
Apple 2.4
Cherries 2.3
Nectarine 1.8
Sweet potato, cooked 1.7
Grapes 1.7
Pear 1.63
Mango 1.5
Oatmeal, dry 1.2
Carrots, raw 1.1
Papaya 1.1
Bread, white 1.0
Figs 0.9
Potato, boiled, without skin 0.8
Orange 0.7

Source: Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

Thanks for posting but you must have realized how it's not useful. You can have problems with foods that are anywhere on the list. Some people don't tolerate figs, others do very well on lentils, others have no problem at all with brown rice, some have with oranges, bread, and so on.

 

[somuch4food]

Thanks for posting but you must have realized how it's not useful. You can have problems with foods that are anywhere on the list. Some people don't tolerate figs, others do very well on lentils, others have no problem at all with brown rice, some have with oranges, bread, and so on.

There's enough variety for it to be useful.

What you're saying is that we shouldn't recommend anything on the basis that it won't apply to everybody?

A forum is not a one-on-one conversation. It's a place to share knowledge and experiences. The reader has to make his own conclusion.

 

[Mufasa]

Thanks for posting but you must have realized how it's not useful. You can have problems with foods that are anywhere on the list. Some people don't tolerate figs, others do very well on lentils, others have no problem at all with brown rice, some have with oranges, bread, and so on.

You can kill any discussion with these kind of arguments.
You may also react allergenic to a lot of foods on those list.

And yes, some people react bad on insoluble fiber.
I have not always react well, when my digestion was horrible.
Some may initially react well on soluble fiber and finally end up worse.
That was the case for me (and with the mice in the study).

At this moment, if I increase nonfermentable fiber, it increases my amount of stools in a day.
On the other hand, fermentable fiber increases my gas production a lot.
This list may be useful if you have a small house and a girlfriend that is sensitive to smells.

My main concern with the list is that I don't understand that bamboo shoots and carrots are so low.
I guess they may have other anti-microbial action that resists fermentation of soluble fiber.

 

[somuch4food]

Another list: Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

Interestingly, cooking from frozen seems to favor more fibers.

As for why carrots/bamboo shoots are not high might be related to the classification, I remember reading a thread should be divided by fermentability instead of solubility. Some types of soluble fibers don't seem to ferment as readily as others.

 

[Cirion]

Nice, thanks for that list :) True, you probably can't say "brown rice is what everyone should have" (because of the IF/SF ratio), but if you can tolerate and like the taste of brown rice, maybe its worth a try! I will say brown rice was a staple in my diet a couple years ago, and I felt pretty good back then, for what its worth, although I am well aware that there are many variables that were different back then than just the brown rice, so its just an observation. I actually really like brown rice cooked in butter. Maybe I'm weird haha.

And you're right - healing takes time. I can be impatient and want the quick solution. I think as long as I'm doing most of the right things that things should slowly improve.

Currently I eat a lot of apples, which is 2.4 on the list, and sweet potato, which is 1.7 on the list, and continue to have bloated symptoms. Maybe this suggests that at least for me, I need to be something more along the lines of at least a 4-5 ratio on average.

 

[Cirion]

Another list: Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

Interestingly, cooking from frozen seems to favor more fibers.

As for why carrots/bamboo shoots are not high might be related to the classification, I remember reading a thread should be divided by fermentability instead of solubility. Some types of soluble fibers don't seem to ferment as readily as others.

Yeah I think the reality is more complex. Its probably both a function of fermentability AND solubility. To really classify how easily something is digested, we'd probably need to cross reference both lists. Is there a list of fermentability somewhere as well? I like to play with numbers, and its the weekend with nothing better to do, so if someone gets a list of fermentability maybe I can try to come up with a mathematical expression that combines the two lol

 

[somuch4food]

I actually really like brown rice cooked in butter. Maybe I'm weird haha.

I'm weird too I guess.

 

[somuch4food]

High cellulose diet protects mice against gut inflammation.

Dietary non-fermentable fiber prevents autoimmune neurological disease by changing gut metabolic and immune status

 

[CLASH]

1) Atleast in my experience and my reading dietary fats are paramount for proper intestinal function, both long chain and medium chain are needed (using just coconut oil wont provide the same effect). If your constipated, chances are your either on a low fat diet, a low fiber diet, a high dairy diet or a high grain/legume fiber diet. I would say, based on my reading, the ideal diet for human intestinal health would be a higher mostly saturated fat diet that incorporates adequate fruits and vegetables.

2) isolated fibers of different type when fed to rats cause colon issues in many studies. There are studies with negative effects for both insoluble and soluble fibers. However, vegetables and fruits generally seem protective. The polyphenols in fruits and vegetables are antibiotic in and of themselves and greater than something like 95% arent absorbed by the body and are sent to the colon. If they are fermented they encourage non-pathogenic species for the most part. Isolated, freely fermentable compounds whether sugar, inulin, pectin, free glucose, free fructose, fructooligosaccharides etc. All cause issues due to bacterial overgrowth in the gut. The reason fruit juice doesnt encourage fatty liver disease yet soda does, is, atleast I believe, because the soda’s sugar is easily fermentable by the bacteria due to the lack of polyphenols/ flavonoids etc.

3) coarse insoluble fibers like grape skins, raw leafy greens and wheat bran can irritate the intestine in some people, regardless of whether it cleans the intestine out or not. When I was in europe (spain/ france) most people peeled the skin off of the fruit like pears, plums, apples etc. The skin of fruits logically contains the majority of the protective compounds/ pesticides in the fruit. It is the protectice layer keeping insects, fungi, bacteria and molds away from the sugar containing portion of the fruit. The same goes for vegetables, the outer layers contain the most noxious compounds. The compounds can irritate us, just as much as they irritate other organisms, atleast in my experience. Also, chimpanzees practice something called “wadging”, meaning they chew the plant matter to a pulp, suck out the juices by pressing the matter against the roof of thier mouth with thier tongue and then spit out the fiber.

4) As intelligence increases amongst the apes, less dense fiber foods are consumed and more energy dense easily extracted nutrient foods are chosen.

Gorilla= leaves, stems, shoots
Chimps= fruit, leaves, insects, honey, shoots
Humans= meat, animal fat, fruit, roots, specific leaves, cooked tubers

The digestive tract of the apes also changes as intelligence increases favoring more absorptive capacity over fermentative capacity. Btw most apes are eating high fat diets as the fermentation taking place in gorillas and chimps colons is producing mostly short chain fatty acids. I think thier diets are something like 40% fat. Humans, in my mind, are essentially apes who adapted to eating the fat/ protein from other animals. Our GI tract is a hybrid between carnivores and fruit/ plant eating species; large small intestine with massive surface area and gallbladder, this is in conjunction with a much smaller colon than our ancestors yet a much larger colon than say a wolf. In practicality I’ve found a 40% mostly saturated fat, 40% sugar from fruit/ juice/ vegetables, 20% protein diet to work best for myself (basically a high fat, high sugar diet... sugar for the thyroid, fat for the androgens).

5) the opiate effect of milk/ cheese from the casien fraction of the protein, in conjunction with the high calcium content of the milk is constipating as F*ck for some people. I literally became a cement mixer when eating lots of dairy, plus I got bacne, poor motivation and my sex drive was in the garbage (btw genetically, I’m a lactase persistent, so it wasnt a lactose issue).