"Soft Mucles" Even Though I Work Out

[Mr.Tayto]

I don’t even know what panesterone is.
I don’t know why prog would increase estrogen but it’s anti androgen as much as people want to deny that

I don’t see why you need any of that.
Maybe you should try dropping all the supplements except K and
Magnoil.
The prog is apparently an abnormal amount so I would think that’s something to target change.
I mean I drank like 12-16 glasses of water in a normal temp day. You want to pee a lot it actually works for liver. It’s not just hydration it’s like a flushing

I don’t know what’s with Peatists with the pansterone, prog, MB, thyroid syntethic hormone supplements. What’s wrong with a well rounded diet?

Seriously though what is pansterone

@Arrade
A well rounded diet hasnt been doing it for me hence im thinking im missing some link in the chain...
i drink m enough water i know that for sure. ive heard drinking excess water can be excitatory for the cells which is bad and can cause excess estrogen Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging
i actually think that could have a contributing factor to my fatigue drinking excess water, training too hard and sweating way to much and not replacing enough salt.
Panesterone is idealabs mix of Dhea/pregnenolone 5mg

@baccheion the tests above are before i started back on progesterone 3 weeks ago after being off it for a year. And ive had more than gradual softening mucles the last few years whether ive been on and or off progesterone.

Would glucose have that much of a role in soft or hard mucles? i know after i eat a big carb meal i get more pump but not neccessarily hard muscles?

 

[baccheion]

@Arrade
A well rounded diet hasnt been doing it for me hence im thinking im missing some link in the chain...
i drink m enough water i know that for sure. ive heard drinking excess water can be excitatory for the cells which is bad and can cause excess estrogen Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging
i actually think that could have a contributing factor to my fatigue drinking excess water, training too hard and sweating way to much and not replacing enough salt.
Panesterone is idealabs mix of Dhea/pregnenolone 5mg

@baccheion the tests above are before i started back on progesterone 3 weeks ago after being off it for a year. And ive had more than gradual softening mucles the last few years whether ive been on and or off progesterone.

Would glucose have that much of a role in soft or hard mucles? i know after i eat a big carb meal i get more pump but not neccessarily hard muscles?

That much progesterone would worsen muscle tone by further countering estrogen. Lower amounts of progesterone (<= 6 mg) tend to increase androgens in males, while higher amounts tend to be inhibitory.

Estrogen increases acetylcholine release (/depletion), though I suppose testosterone does as well. Acetylcholine is associated with muscle tone.

 

[Mr.Tayto]

@baccheion ok il lay off the progestrone for now amd see how i go. might look into getting a lower does product.

 

[baccheion]

@baccheion ok il lay off the progestrone for now amd see how i go. might look into getting a lower does product.

Pansterone (5 mg pregnenolone + 5 mg DHEA) should fill any progesterone gaps anyway.

 

[superhuman]

Your too fat

 

[Mr.Tayto]

@superhuman this softness started waaay before i got supposedly fat back when i sat at 85kgs. "Fat" is not the cause.

 

[superhuman]

@superhuman this softness started waaay before i got supposedly fat back when i sat at 85kgs. "Fat" is not the cause.

It is. Combined with little muscles

 

[aquaman]

The men in the balanced quintile—with the fewest deaths—had serum estradiollevels between 21.80 and 30.11 pg/mL. This is virtually the ideal range that Life Extension® has long recommended male members strive for.

The men in the highest quintile who suffered 133% increased death rates had serum estradiol levels of 37.40pg/mL or above. The lowest estradiol group that suffered a 317% increased death rate had serum estradiol levels under 12.90 pg/mL.

Estrogen Balance and Aging Men - page 1 | Life Extension

His oestradiol was measure in pmol/L !!!

76 pmol converts to 20.6 pg/mL :)

So he’s below the life extension target range!

 

[Arrade]

His oestradiol was measure in pmol/L !!!

76 pmol converts to 20.6 pg/mL :)

So he’s below the life extension target range!

My bad
Also that’s not below that’s in range and ideal

 

[Mr.Tayto]

@superhuman hahaha i dont have a ego man so yeah there smaller than what i would like, hence the reason im here.

 

[Mr.Tayto]

@aquaman @Arrade thanks guys! glad we got to the bottom of the estrogen conundrum!

 

[Mr.Tayto]

Does anyone have any theories or proof of ssris effecting muscle tone?

 

[Arrade]

Did we agree it was the progesterone?
You should get ur DHT checked

 

[Luckytype]

He clearly has high estrogen... aromasin exists for this reason.
I like how you are imagining this vacuum. What hormones do are often cut and dry, estrogen increases water weight and fat gain, especially the face and abdomen. This is the direct problem OP is complain of.
DHT increases myofibrillar muscle, which is "harder" and fast twitch, creating more power and is denser than sarcoplasmic. If I made something up feel free to point it out.
I agree with looking into liver health and food intake.

Life doesnt happen in a vacuum based on internet reading and "oh i read that dht does x, and anti-e does this" on steroid forums. Blindly taking things with no purpose are a good way to further unbalance yourself.

Intersting mention about "this vacuum" considering if you search enough of my posts thats a theme I push strongly.

Yes I can read his results, his estradiol is higher than ideal.

Whether you care to admit it or not, or dig further to understand intermingled relationships of the body systems the reality is that hormones do have distinct(I believe is the word you should use here) actions but to say "cut and dry" is a term relative to the environment around it.

If these actions were so incredibly cut and dry, the scalp progesterone thread here would have larger successes, hair loss a major symptom here on the forum would have already been rectified by all the shotgun approaches because "x does y". The guys still suffering from hairloss would be as simple as cramming tons of nutrient dense calories, thyroid for accelerator, AI to control E, prog for pro thyroid and protection, aspirin for reduction in PG and other food based inflammation - boom, fixed. Orrrmaybe since the new discussion is moving toward less prog and more E, guys should be topically applying E and then shut down all DHT and floor their cortisol since...wait...(sarcasm).

Unfortunately it doesnt work like that as you probably know.

Respectfully, I can appreciate your efforts of sharing information you read but assimilation is different than analysis and considerably different than a full long term comprehensive understanding of homeostasis. Obviously pharm intervention is useful and helpful when application is correct but without knowing the entire picture recommending something may be mildly irresponsible and probably a bit premature. For example not being able to envision how progesterone affects things that effects an increase in estrogen in a stressed is probably good cause not to recommend blindly. But hey, anything in theory could work.

You havent considered this guys energy state. Look at the guys LH/FSH. Look at the accumulation of Estrogen and how it relates to clearance.

Not saying its even specifically related but you havent considered neural input and resting tone. There are metabolic states of dysfunction that have inputs on the nervous system - again, not pointing to but informing you of the big picture that you may not be aware of..

@Mr.Tayto - how many calories do you get in a day and what is the macro breakdown of it? Are you using cronometer by chance?

Whats your waking temp and your daily average temp?

 

[aquaman]

@aquaman @Arrade thanks guys! glad we got to the bottom of the estrogen conundrum!

NP.

One thing that has worked for me for hardening muscles, is resistance band exercises (not only, in combo with normal weights). Because you can't use momentum, they massively increases the brain-muscle connection for me. Doing a slower rep cadence comes automatically - I like to go 4 seconds up, 4 down (or often, just do the concentric part, but that's another story), with a 1 second hold at the top and bottom of the rep.

Lifters rarely talk about Time Under Tension, but talk in reps. But if 1 rep is 1 second, 8 reps is 8 seconds of time under tension, and certain portions of the movement the muscle is hardly being utilised. Slowing down to a 4-1-4-1 second cadence, means you're getting 10 seconds of TUT per rep. So 6 reps you're doing 60 seconds of work.

I use this rep cadence with normal free weights, machines and bands. But the bands seem to get the best muscle connection.

Bodybuilders practice tensing their muscles for shows. This helps with their mind-muscle connection, but is also a concentric followed by isometric exercise. I haven't checked, but I assume this also helps with hardening their muscles.

 

[Lowdose69]

@aquaman @Arrade thanks guys! glad we got to the bottom of the estrogen conundrum!

Did we agree it was the progesterone?
You should get ur DHT checked

Your recent labs don't show SHBG or Free test, so you aren't seeing the whole picture. If E2 is good then checking DHT would be a good next step. DHT is what makes a man a man. You also mentioned lack of libido, which could indicate low dht if your total test is in range. Can you grow a beard? Hairy body?

I eat a lot of salt (per Stan Efferding) and it keeps my muscles full/hard/strong, but I don't know if that works for everyone.

I did not realize that coconut oil interfered with DHT. I have to start reading up on that now.

 

[Arrade]

Your recent labs don't show SHBG or Free test, so you aren't seeing the whole picture. If E2 is good then checking DHT would be a good next step. DHT is what makes a man a man. You also mentioned lack of libido, which could indicate low dht if your total test is in range. Can you grow a beard? Hairy body?

I eat a lot of salt (per Stan Efferding) and it keeps my muscles full/hard/strong, but I don't know if that works for everyone.

I did not realize that coconut oil interfered with DHT. I have to start reading up on that now.

I believe it's both lineolic and lauric acid that mess with the 5ar enzyme. Topically it can directly enter the blood, I have yet to ascertain orally what its effects are.

 

[Mr.Tayto]

Intersting mention about "this vacuum" considering if you search enough of my posts thats a theme I push strongly.

Yes I can read his results, his estradiol is higher than ideal.

Whether you care to admit it or not, or dig further to understand intermingled relationships of the body systems the reality is that hormones do have distinct(I believe is the word you should use here) actions but to say "cut and dry" is a term relative to the environment around it.

If these actions were so incredibly cut and dry, the scalp progesterone thread here would have larger successes, hair loss a major symptom here on the forum would have already been rectified by all the shotgun approaches because "x does y". The guys still suffering from hairloss would be as simple as cramming tons of nutrient dense calories, thyroid for accelerator, AI to control E, prog for pro thyroid and protection, aspirin for reduction in PG and other food based inflammation - boom, fixed. Orrrmaybe since the new discussion is moving toward less prog and more E, guys should be topically applying E and then shut down all DHT and floor their cortisol since...wait...(sarcasm).

Unfortunately it doesnt work like that as you probably know.

Respectfully, I can appreciate your efforts of sharing information you read but assimilation is different than analysis and considerably different than a full long term comprehensive understanding of homeostasis. Obviously pharm intervention is useful and helpful when application is correct but without knowing the entire picture recommending something may be mildly irresponsible and probably a bit premature. For example not being able to envision how progesterone affects things that effects an increase in estrogen in a stressed is probably good cause not to recommend blindly. But hey, anything in theory could work.

You havent considered this guys energy state. Look at the guys LH/FSH. Look at the accumulation of Estrogen and how it relates to clearance.

Not saying its even specifically related but you havent considered neural input and resting tone. There are metabolic states of dysfunction that have inputs on the nervous system - again, not pointing to but informing you of the big picture that you may not be aware of..

@Mr.Tayto - how many calories do you get in a day and what is the macro breakdown of it? Are you using cronometer by chance?

Whats your waking temp and your daily average temp?

i wouldnt know my calorie intake but it would be something like
breakfast: 5.30am 4 egg omelette with vegetables, 3 sausages, 2 oranges and a large glass of OJ

maybe a piece of fruit of 2 inbetween

lunch 10am, potatoe/rice with meat or 2 chicken breasts with a salad with butter drizzled all over, almost always finished with a large fruit salad.

fruit or carrot in between

lunch 2pm rice/potatoes meat 2 pieces of fruit

fruit in between

dinner 6.30pm: rice/potatoes, vegetables, meat

i dont know my temps. i bought thermometer so i mist start measuring.

@aquaman its funny u mention the mind/muscle connection about 3 weeks ago i started some Maxick training, excerising the mind muscle connection through a series of poses and holding for a number of seconds. i spend about 20mins 3 nights a week doing it and wow!!! i havent trained in the gym in the last 3 weeks and this had been an outstanding substitute for it! highly recommend it!! but still there is something missing is regards to having hard muslces. i do eat a fair bit of salt more than i used too and more than from what i observe other people but i dont know is it alot. il up my intake for a few weeks a see how i go.

i do find it hard to grow a beard so from what a few here are suspecting it could be DHT. j will definitely be looking into getting it checked... should be an interesting result either way.

I found out last night that my cortisol is above the range so that would definitely have something got to with it aswell. Also TSH is outside the Peat range.

 

[baccheion]

i wouldnt know my calorie intake but it would be something like
breakfast: 5.30am 4 egg omelette with vegetables, 3 sausages, 2 oranges and a large glass of OJ

maybe a piece of fruit of 2 inbetween

lunch 10am, potatoe/rice with meat or 2 chicken breasts with a salad with butter drizzled all over, almost always finished with a large fruit salad.

fruit or carrot in between

lunch 2pm rice/potatoes meat 2 pieces of fruit

fruit in between

dinner 6.30pm: rice/potatoes, vegetables, meat

i dont know my temps. i bought thermometer so i mist start measuring.

@aquaman its funny u mention the mind/muscle connection about 3 weeks ago i started some Maxick training, excerising the mind muscle connection through a series of poses and holding for a number of seconds. i spend about 20mins 3 nights a week doing it and wow!!! i havent trained in the gym in the last 3 weeks and this had been an outstanding substitute for it! highly recommend it!! but still there is something missing is regards to having hard muslces. i do eat a fair bit of salt more than i used too and more than from what i observe other people but i dont know is it alot. il up my intake for a few weeks a see how i go.

i do find it hard to grow a beard so from what a few here are suspecting it could be DHT. j will definitely be looking into getting it checked... should be an interesting result either way.

I found out last night that my cortisol is above the range so that would definitely have something got to with it aswell. Also TSH is outside the Peat range.

TSH could be lower, as 0.8 - 2.0 is optimal. Free T4, free T3, reverse T4, reverse T3, etc are more telling.

 

[superhuman]

@superhuman hahaha i dont have a ego man so yeah there smaller than what i would like, hence the reason im here.

Thats good. So just build some muscle and loose fat and you dont need to worry about all the ***t people are talking about here in terms of estrogen and all that ***t being the problem