Sodium deficiency, in cell or in serum?

Pina

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Could someone be deficient in sodium while having normal serum levels?
This is a contentious issue. There is a thread on the forum that mentions the work of Dr. Jens Titze on tissue bound sodium. I think healthy individuals can regulate sodium but in sickness and metabolic illness (diabetes and insulin resistance), injury, or infection sodium tends to accumulate in the tissue. Dr Titze demonstrated that hypertensive elderly patients tended to have high tissue bound sodium whilst maintaining normal blood tissue sodium levels. He was involved in a clinical trial on salt and hypertension which ended Dec 2020. I don’t think the results have been published yet. I am keeping a keen eye on this subject myself because I have spoke to a few doctors about issue bound sodium and they don’t seem know much about it.


How the body regulates salt levels

Dr Peat has often empathised that the sodium hypertension theory tends to ignore the fact that calcium deficiency is likely to be the contributing factor. Both arguments could be concurrently true. If stressed tissue retains sodium (and calcium) then Titze argument is valid. If calcium deficiency is a contributing factor in soft tissue calcification thus stressing the tissue then Dr Peat is right too. The issue then prompts the question, which comes first calcium deficiency or sodium overload? This question could also be irrelevant. Magnesium and potassium statues are also important. I suspect PUFA comes into the equation somewhere along the line. The end result is energy failure which points to thyroid?

Taurine is involved in sodium regulation too.

So, the answer to your question is yes, based on the work of Titze but based on Dr Peats work it is more complex than just looking at the sodium levels. Pufa status, thyroid, hormones and electrolyte balance are all implicated.

If you find any new research on this subject please post.
 

Pina

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This is a classic case of not reading the question. I answered the opposite of what you asked. I hope the info is still of some use.
 
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One study showed that a low potassium intake lowers the excretion of sodium. The explanation they gave is that it is an adaptation, since, in times of famine, you barely ingest sodium or potassium But now, people, especially in the west, ingest a bunch of sodium and very little potassium. What happens is that the former accumulates due to the low intake of the latter.

Sick people may have hyponatremia, but I think that's caused by too much sodium inside the cell( the cell soaks it up, and if enough tissues do this, you end up with low blood sodium, not because the person isn't ingesting enough salt, but because the tissues are absorbing too much of it). These people may also suffer from conditions related to edema, since excess intracellular sodium is known for causing it. Thyroid is necessary to energize the cell so that it can keep proper mineral balance. I believe it goes something like:
-thyroid activates the oxidative metabolism( electron transport chain is where most of the ATP is formed)
-ATP extends the protein in the cell( hemoglobin for example), which is normally curled up
- this protein is now free to attract water and potassium, which will form a gelatin- like structure. This structure naturally repels certain substances and absorbs others, without any membrane pumps or anything like that.( this I got, of course, from Gilbert Ling).
- if the cell doesn't have access to enough T3, then it's ATP content goes down. This makes the protein in the cell become less extended, so the water that was linked to it turns into normal, liquid water, making the cell less organized. Less potassium ions stay linked to the protein, since it's more curled up. The cell leaks K and absorbs Na. This causes more liquid water to enter the cell, increasing the disorganization more and more.

I don't think this necessarily means that you need to go ultra low on the salt intake. If the person isn't hypothyroid, then the cell will have enough energy to keep sodium and calcium out, while keeping potassium in. A sick person is probably gonna have difficulties on a high salt diet. Their cells don't have enough ATP, and so can't keep the sodium out. Edema, heart problems, hypertension may arise.

I do think a high intake of potassium is needed though, or else you can't excrete the excess sodium in the urine effectively. Also, potassium is absolutely essential for cell life. The proteins in the cell can't perform their job if they are linked to sodium.
 

Pina

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One study showed that a low potassium intake lowers the excretion of sodium. The explanation they gave is that it is an adaptation, since, in times of famine, you barely ingest sodium or potassium But now, people, especially in the west, ingest a bunch of sodium and very little potassium. What happens is that the former accumulates due to the low intake of the latter.

Sick people may have hyponatremia, but I think that's caused by too much sodium inside the cell( the cell soaks it up, and if enough tissues do this, you end up with low blood sodium, not because the person isn't ingesting enough salt, but because the tissues are absorbing too much of it). These people may also suffer from conditions related to edema, since excess intracellular sodium is known for causing it. Thyroid is necessary to energize the cell so that it can keep proper mineral balance. I believe it goes something like:
-thyroid activates the oxidative metabolism( electron transport chain is where most of the ATP is formed)
-ATP extends the protein in the cell( hemoglobin for example), which is normally curled up
- this protein is now free to attract water and potassium, which will form a gelatin- like structure. This structure naturally repels certain substances and absorbs others, without any membrane pumps or anything like that.( this I got, of course, from Gilbert Ling).
- if the cell doesn't have access to enough T3, then it's ATP content goes down. This makes the protein in the cell become less extended, so the water that was linked to it turns into normal, liquid water, making the cell less organized. Less potassium ions stay linked to the protein, since it's more curled up. The cell leaks K and absorbs Na. This causes more liquid water to enter the cell, increasing the disorganization more and more.

I don't think this necessarily means that you need to go ultra low on the salt intake. If the person isn't hypothyroid, then the cell will have enough energy to keep sodium and calcium out, while keeping potassium in. A sick person is probably gonna have difficulties on a high salt diet. Their cells don't have enough ATP, and so can't keep the sodium out. Edema, heart problems, hypertension may arise.

I do think a high intake of potassium is needed though, or else you can't excrete the excess sodium in the urine effectively. Also, potassium is absolutely essential for cell life. The proteins in the cell can't perform their job if they are linked to sodium.
This is useful info thanks for posting.
Dr Peat often talks about hypothyroid persons losing sodium easily. You seem to be suggesting that the opposite is true, or have I misread it?
 
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This is useful info thanks for posting.
Dr Peat often talks about hypothyroid persons losing sodium easily. You seem to be suggesting that the opposite is true, or have I misread it?
I'm trying to reconcile what Peat said with what people like Max Gerson have found in treating sick people( with tuberculosis or cancer, for example). So far, I haven't really succeeded.

I know Ray has said that fluids( such as the blood) become hyponatremic when the person is low in thyroid hormone:
"Hypothyroidism tends to cause the blood and other body fluids to be deficient in both sodium and glucose. Consuming salty carbohydrate foods momentarily makes up to some extent for the thyroid deficiency." ( from Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease)

Low blood levels of sodium are harmful, so it makes sense that eating salt replenishes momentarily the blood sodium content.
"Blood volume changes during the normal menstrual cycle, and when the blood volume is low, it is usually because the water has moved into the tissues, causing edema. When estrogen is high, the osmolarity of the blood is low. (Courtar, et al., 2007; Stachenfeld, et al., 1999). Hypothyroidism (which increases the ratio of estrogen to progesterone) is a major cause of excessive sodium loss." ( from Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity)

Now that I'm thinking about it, has Ray said that people with hypothyroidism lose sodium in their urine? I thought he had said that somewhere, but if he didn't, it would diminish the contradictions between him and Gerson. In terms of low blood sodium, I don't think there is any contradiction between them, because I'm pretty sure Gerson didn't consider low blood sodium good. His goal was to lower intracellular sodium and increase intracellular potassium. When you decrease the former, it goes into the blood. If it's excessive, it's eliminated in the urine, but the body is very good at conserving blood sodium, if the cells aren't absorbing much of it.

So, to answer your question, I agree with Peat that hypothyroidism makes bodily fluids( such as blood) hyponatremic, but I'm not sure if I agree with him that it's because of a low intake of sodium. If a person who is hypo and is having an episode of low blood sodium eats salt, it will make them feel better, but soon the tissues are gonna absorb that salt and accumulate it, then they will feel low sodium again, and so on. I think it may be better to solve the hypothyroidism first( while making sure to not ingest too much sodium), then, after the person is no longer hypo, they can eat more salt if they desire it.
 

Pina

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I'm trying to reconcile what Peat said with what people like Max Gerson have found in treating sick people( with tuberculosis or cancer, for example). So far, I haven't really succeeded.

I know Ray has said that fluids( such as the blood) become hyponatremic when the person is low in thyroid hormone:
"Hypothyroidism tends to cause the blood and other body fluids to be deficient in both sodium and glucose. Consuming salty carbohydrate foods momentarily makes up to some extent for the thyroid deficiency." ( from Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease)

Low blood levels of sodium are harmful, so it makes sense that eating salt replenishes momentarily the blood sodium content.
"Blood volume changes during the normal menstrual cycle, and when the blood volume is low, it is usually because the water has moved into the tissues, causing edema. When estrogen is high, the osmolarity of the blood is low. (Courtar, et al., 2007; Stachenfeld, et al., 1999). Hypothyroidism (which increases the ratio of estrogen to progesterone) is a major cause of excessive sodium loss." ( from Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity)

Now that I'm thinking about it, has Ray said that people with hypothyroidism lose sodium in their urine? I thought he had said that somewhere, but if he didn't, it would diminish the contradictions between him and Gerson. In terms of low blood sodium, I don't think there is any contradiction between them, because I'm pretty sure Gerson didn't consider low blood sodium good. His goal was to lower intracellular sodium and increase intracellular potassium. When you decrease the former, it goes into the blood. If it's excessive, it's eliminated in the urine, but the body is very good at conserving blood sodium, if the cells aren't absorbing much of it.

So, to answer your question, I agree with Peat that hypothyroidism makes bodily fluids( such as blood) hyponatremic, but I'm not sure if I agree with him that it's because of a low intake of sodium. If a person who is hypo and is having an episode of low blood sodium eats salt, it will make them feel better, but soon the tissues are gonna absorb that salt and accumulate it, then they will feel low sodium again, and so on. I think it may be better to solve the hypothyroidism first( while making sure to not ingest too much sodium), then, after the person is no longer hypo, they can eat more salt if they desire it.
Thanks. I am hypothyroid and have hypertension. I also have soft tissue injuries which seem to attract sodium (and calcium). I have been trying to figure this out since I started peating. Your explanation is much appreciated
 
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Thanks. I am hypothyroid and have hypertension. I also have soft tissue injuries which seem to attract sodium (and calcium). I have been trying to figure this out since I started peating. Your explanation is much appreciated
You're welcome! Thanks for those links to Jens Titze from your other post.. It makes me think of what Gerson noticed in his cancer patients after he put them on a saltless diet: their excretion of salt was higher than their ingestion. The question is where is that salt coming from? I thought it would be coming from the edematous tissues only, but that study you posted about osmotically neutral sodium( sodium accumulation without water retention) is quite interesting, since, according to it, even non- edematous tissue can be overloaded with sodium.

I'm hypothyroid too. Even though it's much better now, I still have myxedema. I also have SIBO, which makes me bloated most of the time. Right now I'm doing a no- salt diet( certainly not Peaty, but I had to try it). I noticed some benefits with regards to edema. I also noticed some very good improvements with heart palpitations. I used to get one or two everyday, especially after breathing deeply and after going from standing up to lying down too quickly. Now, most days I have no heart palpitations. I went completely saltless since 10 days ago. Before that, I had been slowly lowering my salt intake for about 2 months( suggestion from forum member Tristan Locha). Even when I didn't remove salt completely( so perhaps still a fourth to an eight of a teaspoon per day), my heart palpitations were pretty much gonne, so certainly not necessary to go zero salt to get some benefits.

How much salt do you eat a day on average? Are you taking thyroid?
 

Pina

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You're welcome! Thanks for those links to Jens Titze from your other post.. It makes me think of what Gerson noticed in his cancer patients after he put them on a saltless diet: their excretion of salt was higher than their ingestion. The question is where is that salt coming from? I thought it would be coming from the edematous tissues only, but that study you posted about osmotically neutral sodium( sodium accumulation without water retention) is quite interesting, since, according to it, even non- edematous tissue can be overloaded with sodium.

I'm hypothyroid too. Even though it's much better now, I still have myxedema. I also have SIBO, which makes me bloated most of the time. Right now I'm doing a no- salt diet( certainly not Peaty, but I had to try it). I noticed some benefits with regards to edema. I also noticed some very good improvements with heart palpitations. I used to get one or two everyday, especially after breathing deeply and after going from standing up to lying down too quickly. Now, most days I have no heart palpitations. I went completely saltless since 10 days ago. Before that, I had been slowly lowering my salt intake for about 2 months( suggestion from forum member Tristan Locha). Even when I didn't remove salt completely( so perhaps still a fourth to an eight of a teaspoon per day), my heart palpitations were pretty much gonne, so certainly not necessary to go zero salt to get some benefits.

How much salt do you eat a day on average? Are you taking thyroid?
I use around half a teaspoon. My liquid intake is high because of milk consumption. I've tried going salt free but I get dizzy. I'm on telmisartan for blood pressure, plus I supplement pregnenolone, they both increase sodium excretion. I want to drop pregnenolone. I am experimenting with idealabs thyroid, mainly tyromax and tyronene. So far my hypertension has not improved. It seems to increase adrenaline. My gut is also mess. I think endotoxin is playing a big role in my current health issues. Perhaps I ought to limit fluids.

Selenium might help myxedema.

I listened to a few of peat interviews again today. I was searching to see if he talks about tissue bound sodium in sick people. Mostly he emphasises that calcium deficiency is the problem not sodium. TItzer suggests that bacteria plays a part in injured tissue taking up sodium. Things that i know that lower sodium are, zinc, taurine, vit d, b6, vit e. I think I am replete in all of these. Could hypervitaminosis be the issue? All this speculation drives me crazy.

Ultimately thyroid is the answer but with high body pufa it feels impossible to get results. In th uk where I live its impossible to find a doctor that will accept that I am hypo. They refuse to test t3 t4 or rt3. This is one of the reasons I am so grateful for Dr Peats willingness to share his knowledge so freely.
 
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I use around half a teaspoon. My liquid intake is high because of milk consumption. I've tried going salt free but I get dizzy. I'm on telmisartan for blood pressure, plus I supplement pregnenolone, they both increase sodium excretion. I want to drop pregnenolone. I am experimenting with idealabs thyroid, mainly tyromax and tyronene. So far my hypertension has not improved. It seems to increase adrenaline. My gut is also mess. I think endotoxin is playing a big role in my current health issues. Perhaps I ought to limit fluids.

Selenium might help myxedema.

I listened to a few of peat interviews again today. I was searching to see if he talks about tissue bound sodium in sick people. Mostly he emphasises that calcium deficiency is the problem not sodium. TItzer suggests that bacteria plays a part in injured tissue taking up sodium. Things that i know that lower sodium are, zinc, taurine, vit d, b6, vit e. I think I am replete in all of these. Could hypervitaminosis be the issue? All this speculation drives me crazy.

Ultimately thyroid is the answer but with high body pufa it feels impossible to get results. In th uk where I live its impossible to find a doctor that will accept that I am hypo. They refuse to test t3 t4 or rt3. This is one of the reasons I am so grateful for Dr Peats willingness to share his knowledge so freely.
Bacteria being a part of the puzzle makes a lot of sense to me. Endotoxin is known for poisoning the energy system of the body. This will lower ATP and allow sodium in. I think this can be an even bigger problem than accumulated PUFA, because it's ongoing all the time. At least, with PUFA, we can limit foods that are high in it , as well as take vitamin E and niacinamide to restrain the free fatty acid elevation in the blood. PUFA which is away from the blood and more localized in the fat tissues are much less dangerous than free PUFA. With SIBO/ excess bacteria in the gut, it's quite hard to tackle it for good. Usually what people do is just avoid all the things that cause a surge of endotoxin, but this strategy comes with its own set of problems.

About the speculation, it does get quite puzzling sometimes, kinda makes my head spin a little bit lol. I wish I was born to a family of native indians in the middle of a jungle tbh.

I think sodium restriction while on meds for blood pressure can be dangerous. How long have you been taking telmisartan?
 

Pina

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Bacteria being a part of the puzzle makes a lot of sense to me. Endotoxin is known for poisoning the energy system of the body. This will lower ATP and allow sodium in. I think this can be an even bigger problem than accumulated PUFA, because it's ongoing all the time. At least, with PUFA, we can limit foods that are high in it , as well as take vitamin E and niacinamide to restrain the free fatty acid elevation in the blood. PUFA which is away from the blood and more localized in the fat tissues are much less dangerous than free PUFA. With SIBO/ excess bacteria in the gut, it's quite hard to tackle it for good. Usually what people do is just avoid all the things that cause a surge of endotoxin, but this strategy comes with its own set of problems.

About the speculation, it does get quite puzzling sometimes, kinda makes my head spin a little bit lol. I wish I was born to a family of native indians in the middle of a jungle tbh.

I think sodium restriction while on meds for blood pressure can be dangerous. How long have you been taking telmisartan?
Lol to native indians in the middle of the jungle. Genetics does play its part. My reality is 3 generations with collagen issues and hypertension.

I have been on telmisartan for a year now. It really helps with scar tissue/collagen build up. But I am undecided if it is really helping or hindering me. I have developed plantar fasciitis recently, not sure if its linked to telmisartan. I am trying to work up to I teaspoon of salt a day.

Do you know if hydrolysed collagen/gelatin should be avoided if one has excess collagen build up.
 
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Lol to native indians in the middle of the jungle. Genetics does play its part. My reality is 3 generations with collagen issues and hypertension.

I have been on telmisartan for a year now. It really helps with scar tissue/collagen build up. But I am undecided if it is really helping or hindering me. I have developed plantar fasciitis recently, not sure if its linked to telmisartan. I am trying to work up to I teaspoon of salt a day.

Do you know if hydrolysed collagen/gelatin should be avoided if one has excess collagen build up.
I think gelatin( or hydrolyzed collagen) would actually help, because glycine has an anti- fibrotic effect, which is one of the reasons it's good for liver diseases. Fibrosis, if I recall correctly, is a build up of collagen, but it's not coherent, and it represents the degenration of the tissue( with the next step being cancer). It eventually makes it impossible for the tissue to perform it's normal functions( think of fibrosis in the heart, altering the muscle contractions). Since glycine has anti- inflammatory effects, and inflammation is very important for the appearance of fibrosis, I think it can help in this regard.

There was one study where rats whose ancestors( in this case the parents) made the association between the smell of cat urine and the threat that the cat represents were born knowing this association. The rats whose ancestors didn't make this association were born without knowing that that particular urine was produced by a cat( which is of course a threat). I subscribe to the theory what we experience( be it good or bad) gets passed to our offspring. From this perspective, if a person's father or grandfather or greatgrandfather or any other ancestor was exposed to a bad environment, it absorbs that environment and adapts to( gets changed by) it, passing down such adaptation. A person whose father had heart disease( due to hypothyroidism or stress or excess PUFA consumption) may inherit the weakness in this particular area. I personally find this view really interesting, because it ties a certain disease or a certain positive characteristic not to random mutations, but to a defined, non- random cause( the environment the organism was in). It also is a more hopeful view of the organism.

About the fasciites, I don't know of any causative relation between that med and it. Do you know what your diet was like when it appeared? I get some cankle pain if I eat too much spinach, and if I insist, it starts to make hard to walk. Oxalates probably in my case.
 
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Lol to native indians in the middle of the jungle. Genetics does play its part. My reality is 3 generations with collagen issues and hypertension.

I have been on telmisartan for a year now. It really helps with scar tissue/collagen build up. But I am undecided if it is really helping or hindering me. I have developed plantar fasciitis recently, not sure if its linked to telmisartan. I am trying to work up to I teaspoon of salt a day.

Do you know if hydrolysed collagen/gelatin should be avoided if one has excess collagen build up.
Also, I was listening to an interview with Georgi( haidut) and he mentioned that progesterone up until the 70s was known to be the most powerful natural anti- fibrotic agent. So that's something that could be useful for your condition.
 

Pina

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Also, I was listening to an interview with Georgi( haidut) and he mentioned that progesterone up until the 70s was known to be the most powerful natural anti- fibrotic agent. So that's something that could be useful for your condition.
Thank you for this link. I have heard it before; I think this is the episode where Haidut insults Nigerians.

I am conflicted about progesterone. I have used progest E on and off over the past 4 years. Had great results with using it on burns and a head injury. It made me gain weight and I was also convinced that, along with telmisartan, it is dropping my androgens too much. Interestingly, telmisartan has the same functions as progesterone except it lowers levels of other nutrients such as zinc, Q10, magnesium, and lowers androgens. I have progest E in the fridge so I might try it again. Yesterday I stopped pregnenolone and started Q10. I am still not sure if collagen/gelatin is good or bad for my conditions.
 
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Thank you for this link. I have heard it before; I think this is the episode where Haidut insults Nigerians.
Lol, to be fair he did say that it was the research institute personnel that asked whether he was nigerian.
I am conflicted about progesterone. I have used progest E on and off over the past 4 years. Had great results with using it on burns and a head injury. It made me gain weight and I was also convinced that, along with telmisartan, it is dropping my androgens too much. Interestingly, telmisartan has the same functions as progesterone except it lowers levels of other nutrients such as zinc, Q10, magnesium, and lowers androgens. I have progest E in the fridge so I might try it again. Yesterday I stopped pregnenolone and started Q10. I am still not sure if collagen/gelatin is good or bad for my conditions.
In another interview, he said vitamin K( along with vitamin D3 I think) lowered his blood pressure significantly. I imagine CoQ10 would preserve K, which is good. Do you use any vitamin K supplement right now? It can increase androgens pretty well.

How did you feel last time you used gelatin( if you have ever used it)?
 

Pina

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Lol, to be fair he did say that it was the research institute personnel that asked whether he was nigerian.

In another interview, he said vitamin K( along with vitamin D3 I think) lowered his blood pressure significantly. I imagine CoQ10 would preserve K, which is good. Do you use any vitamin K supplement right now? It can increase androgens pretty well.

How did you feel last time you used gelatin( if you have ever used it)?
I have been using Vitamin (k1, Mk4, mk7) for years. Even tried the high does 30 - 45mg mk4, this did nothing for my blood pressure. MK7 raises my blood pressure. I do drink around 1.5 - 2 litres of milk a day, my vitamin D is good and magnesium too. Taurine lowers my blood pressure but gives me ulcer like pain. I have gained weight since Peating but I am not overweight, most of it is fluid retention.

I started using collagen/gelatin 4 years ago. I use around 20g a day. Sometimes I think it is contributing to my floppy muscles, but without it I cannot tolerate milk or coffee. If my body is making too much collagen then that could explain the hypertension.


Dr Peat suggestes thyroid, progesterone and low PUFA in such cases. I have not heard him comment on the effect of supplemental collagen in compromised individuals.
 
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