Slippery Slope SUPPLEMENTS

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"When a person uses a drug, there is generally an awareness that the benefit has to be weighed against the side effects. But if something is treated as a “nutrient,” especially an “essential nutrient,” there is an implication that it won't produce undesirable side effects." -Ray Peat


I have always taken an interest in vitamins and herbs, starting in my teens. My mom had apothecary jars lined up across the kitchen counter, with various loose leaves, and books too that told of the miracles they could do. I would read about foods and the different vitamins and minerals that they had in them and would set out to eat two bites of "this" and three bites of "that" to make sure I got everything I needed and more. I use to envision my body as parts that had minds of their own, with feelings and temper tantrums. When I ate that two bites of cottage cheese, I pictured a mouth wide open at the end of the chute ready to catch it. After all the mouths were fed with the kidneys happy and the liver happy and the rest, I felt good moving on to my school homework. My only dabbling in vitamin suppliments was my mom telling me to try a niacin tablet, and the flush that came soon after was nearly unbearable! Yeah that was really funny mom. She got out of any criticisms by telling me how much good that "flush" was doing me. I did it a few more times , with more discomfort, and eventually the flush became less and less.

So in my adulthood I continued my vitamins, and of course in my 20's finding them as cheap as possible was the goal, after all a vitamin is a vitamin and those chewables and gummies made them a positive experience. ALL through my twenties I wasn't well. I had a lot of stomach problems and vomiting was a weekly occurrence. I lost a lot of weight, with much talk behind my back accusing me of having anorexia or bulimia. Those were frustrating times because I cooked gourmet meals and ate as much as anyone else, and of course got a lot of extra nutrients from vitamins.

After I had children it was more of the same. I discovered the miracles of bee pollen and never suffered menstrual cramps again. Then came "The Miracles Of MSM" (that is actually the title of the little book I read). MSM really was a miracle, reversing my wrinkles and it helped many friends and family with arthritis and other chronic pains. Finally I came upon a time when I could feel something brewing deep within. I had a deep itch on my collar bone that I could not get to, until one day I used one of my suppliments and my collar bone body broke out into an unbearable deep rash. I struhgled with that rash for months, being careful not to move too much snd keep ice packs and anti-histamines around to get through each day. I finally matched the name to my ailament, "Histamine Intolerance". I continued to use my supplements and everytime I did my symptoms got worse and worse, with now new symptoms like extreme puffy eyes, nonstop vomiting with any notice of nausea, insomnia, and a trickle of many other symptoms. Now I found myself taking suppliments out one at a time, and saw my symptoms get less and less, hanging on to only one for awhile, nettle. The final act was a horrible arm rash that would come on within minutes of ingesting any flouride, and the miserable rash would last for days. A gravity water filter finally resolved that rash and my health finally got to the other end of the tunnel.

Nowadays when I see a suppliment and know the quick fix I can get from it with better "this" or better "that", i resist the temptation and eat my beef liver or squeeze and strain some oranges. I don't ingest ANY suppliments anymore and i have ZERO health issues at 58. It took some time to let each of my "supposed" friends go, but I have learned through it all that with 'friends" quantity isn't as important as the quality.
 

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Jon2547

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That's very interesting. I would say my background has some similar elements. I feel good every time I cut out one more supplements.

Its really sick. Before breakfast, I've popped two chromium capsules, memantine, some rosemary tincture, scoop of Lysine, cistanche, vitamin C and sometimes milk thistle.

Last couple of days I've cut out the methylene blue because I began to notice it in the urine. I feel better being off of it. I may or may not continue to use it.
 
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That's very interesting. I would say my background has some similar elements. I feel good every time I cut out one more supplements.

Its really sick. Before breakfast, I've popped two chromium capsules, memantine, some rosemary tincture, scoop of Lysine, cistanche, vitamin C and sometimes milk thistle.

Last couple of days I've cut out the methylene blue because I began to notice it in the urine. I feel better being off of it. I may or may not continue to use it.


That is a bunch of "extras". Funny, well before discovering Ray Peat, I read many articles warning about suppliments, and how detrimental to one's health they can be because real food offers vitamins in balance with other vitamins. It is common mainstream knowledge that taking a surplus of one vitamin can put things out of balance, and I ignored it. Now add in Ray Peat's warnings about their contaminants and toxicity and I still turned a blind eye. Now when I hear about how good Methylene Blue and pregnenolone is, I just say "no thanks" I don't wanna get greedy and possibly mess up this excellent health I have going on now.
 

FitnessMike

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I didn't sleep past two nights at all I believe its due to magnesium before bed, so frustrating. I also am stopping b complex I think and it leaves me with Vit D3 plus k2.

I don't know man.
 

amd

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Is easy to get cheap supplements with a nice "certificate of analysis" (high 90s).

Only need to repackage and sell for many times what they cost in bulk.

In such markets it's hard to compete when buyers don't demand quality, but how do you quantify it? Personal symptoms?

And can't trust they are the "same" as the natural counterparts.

Is a tug of war between producers and consumers, same for food products.
 
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I didn't sleep past two nights at all I believe its due to magnesium before bed, so frustrating. I also am stopping b complex I think and it leaves me with Vit D3 plus k2.

I don't know man.

Oh I feel for you not sleeping, and therein lies that "slippery slope", you gave up a good night sleep to eat some magnesium. An Epsom bath would have been a better swap. I think ingesting suppliments is hard on the organs and alters natural digestion.

I feel my body is calmer without suppliments. Honey at bedtime, or if I wake up in the might, does wonders for sleep. I would be willing to do as RP does and try some liquid vitamins on my skin come this winter. I am not seeing how that can go wrong, yet.
 
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Is easy to get cheap supplements with a nice "certificate of analysis" (high 90s).

Only need to repackage and sell for many times what they cost in bulk.

In such markets it's hard to compete when buyers don't demand quality, but how do you quantify it? Personal symptoms?

And can't trust they are the "same" as the natural counterparts.

Is a tug of war between producers and consumers, same for food products.

Even if the vitamins are made from "natural counterparts" the process they go through to compress it into a tiny pill should speak to it's quality.
 
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"Butter contains natural vitamin A and D and some beneficial natural hormones. It is less fattening than the unsaturated oils. There is much less cholesterol in an ounce of butter than in a lean chicken breast [about 1/5 as much cholesterol in fat as in lean meat on a calorie basis, according to R. Reiser of Texas A & M Univ., 1979.]." -Ray Peat
 

Jon2547

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I'm thinking of quitting also creatine and berberine.

The ones I will most likely stick with are the hawthorne powder and the bilberry powder as these are minimally processed.
 
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I'm thinking of quitting also creatine and berberine.

The ones I will most likely stick with are the hawthorne powder and the bilberry powder as these are minimally processed.

Are you taking hawthorn powder for heart?
 
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I know I have been lacking in K since giving up vegetables five years ago, so I started making my own K ice cubes this past couple of weeks boiling greens, kale or dandelion, for two minutes, cooling, blending a hint and straining into ice cube trays. I just put a couple of cubes in a glass with a sprig of mint and a few chunks of frozen pineapple to offset the bitter taste. I know it takes that extra 10 15 minutes to make them, but it sure is better than swallowing something fake.
 

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I have been getting a lot of nutrient from frozen fruit just soaking it in water several hours of overnight. It is really flavorful without having to disturb the seeds and skins or ingest the fiber. I make fresh squeezed and strained orange ice cubes too for my vitamin C.
 

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Jon2547

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I know I have been lacking in K since giving up vegetables five years ago, so I started making my own K ice cubes this past couple of weeks boiling greens, kale or dandelion, for two minutes, cooling, blending a hint and straining into ice cube trays. I just put a couple of cubes in a glass with a sprig of mint and a few chunks of frozen pineapple to offset the bitter taste. I know it takes that extra 10 15 minutes to make them, but it sure is better than swallowing something fake.
What is your take on vitamin K capsules? I take a high dose version.
 
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What is your take on vitamin K capsules? I take a high dose version.

I have what I would consider a good K vitamin that I was occasionally supplimenting, but I just don't know what that might lead to if I keep it up. Again, if I had no fresh options I would find myself taking it. I am just finding I feel amazing without anything, so instead I am trying some inventive ways to make my own "vitamins". I know it is way too hard micromanaging my daily intake to get everying, so I have let go of some of that worry, and just stick to fresh. Like managing my weight, some days I eat less and some days I eat more and it all averages out in the end.
 
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Yes, It is a good one as far as I can tell. I can feel the difference in my heart energy.

I have liquid hawthorn for my husband and a doggie version for my little fluffy girl, but I only use it with them when there seems to be a problem, more like medicine.
 
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I have been getting a lot of nutrient from frozen fruit just soaking it in water several hours of overnight. It is really flavorful without having to disturb the seeds and skins or ingest the fiber. I make fresh squeezed and strained orange ice cubes too for my vitamin C.

Just looking at the colors of fresh berries, oranges and greens makes it so obvious that a dead pill is no match.
 

InChristAlone

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Were you consuming the multi-vitamin gummies when you started experiencing the skin rashes? That could be the added vitamin A building up to toxic levels. I think the vitamins A and D are some of the worst ones to experiment with. The water soluble B vitamins less so. Of course the niacin flush can be really uncomfortable but can shows how much histamine you have floating around.

I am currently playing around with some b vitamins because of my high sugar diet for years I think I go through them pretty quick. Even when I was eating liver I had terrible terrible symptoms, I was consuming very few supplements during that time as my orthorexia prevented me from taking stuff that could mess up my body. The only thing I took religiously was a glob of progest-e two weeks a month. I still had very concerning symptoms. Then I found vitamin C and started using that after going through a month of panic attacks from a failed experiment of adding coffee back into my diet. I finally was getting some relief of the constant anxiety. Even better when I added in niacinamide for a time. Then I was able to drink coffee for over a yr before some mental stress made me remove it again, I was only taking ascorbic acid at that point along with mag oil on my jaw muscles before sleep. I have been struggling with some energy problems along with restless sleep towards morning from extremely vivid dreams so I thought experimenting with some b vitamins would be helpful. It feels like maybe I became imbalanced in B6 from eating bananas in comparison to thiamine as evidenced by the vivid dreams but more likely to stop breathing at night. I am going off the ascorbic acid for a while to see if I can see how my baseline is before doing more experimenting. I think for those who are going through extreme stress, the foods we have access to are probably not going to cut it. For those with relatively low stress happy lives then sure liver oysters and fruit is perfectly fine. My kids are fairly high needs and so I go through periods of extremely high stress. Of course the cure for that is self care and a good diet, but I feel myself burning through things I can't replace easily.
 
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Were you consuming the multi-vitamin gummies when you started experiencing the skin rashes? That could be the added vitamin A building up to toxic levels. I think the vitamins A and D are some of the worst ones to experiment with. The water soluble B vitamins less so. Of course the niacin flush can be really uncomfortable but can shows how much histamine you have floating around.

I am currently playing around with some b vitamins because of my high sugar diet for years I think I go through them pretty quick. Even when I was eating liver I had terrible terrible symptoms, I was consuming very few supplements during that time as my orthorexia prevented me from taking stuff that could mess up my body. The only thing I took religiously was a glob of progest-e two weeks a month. I still had very concerning symptoms. Then I found vitamin C and started using that after going through a month of panic attacks from a failed experiment of adding coffee back into my diet. I finally was getting some relief of the constant anxiety. Even better when I added in niacinamide for a time. Then I was able to drink coffee for over a yr before some mental stress made me remove it again, I was only taking ascorbic acid at that point along with mag oil on my jaw muscles before sleep. I have been struggling with some energy problems along with restless sleep towards morning from extremely vivid dreams so I thought experimenting with some b vitamins would be helpful. It feels like maybe I became imbalanced in B6 from eating bananas in comparison to thiamine as evidenced by the vivid dreams but more likely to stop breathing at night. I am going off the ascorbic acid for a while to see if I can see how my baseline is before doing more experimenting. I think for those who are going through extreme stress, the foods we have access to are probably not going to cut it. For those with relatively low stress happy lives then sure liver oysters and fruit is perfectly fine. My kids are fairly high needs and so I go through periods of extremely high stress. Of course the cure for that is self care and a good diet, but I feel myself burning through things I can't replace easily.

My gummy vitamin days were in my early 20's, I am 58 now. My histamine intolerance reared it's ugly head about 7 years ago and continued until about two years ago. After I resolved my histamine issue, I still had some sleep issues and energy issues until this year, when I got off all of the suppliment and now I feel like a younger person again for it. Before I went on the "Blood Type Diet" and later gave up grains I had pain issues, gall bladder and adrenal/heart issues and panic attacks. I even had some cyctic adult acne through part of my 40's. Fortunately for me I was not a huge fad dieter for any length of time, as I enjoy food too much for that, but I was a mess until 10+ years ago. Each health change I made has inched me to the best health of my life now. Don't give up, you will get to a better place. As they say "What heals you kills you". I couldn't drink milk until this year, but now I drink as much as I like.
 
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This thread is to my point about supplimenting one thing causing an imbalance in another area. In this case it was supplimenting vitamin D & K, which caused a calcium imbalance and real food aka cheese resolved it.

 
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

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