Sleep Worse Since Starting Ray Peat Diet

James_001

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Anyone else notice a decrease in quality of sleep since improving their thyroid function?

When I was hypo I could always sleep through the night without waking up, now I get an adrenaline surge at 3 am like clockwork. I have tried a variety of sup and nothing seems to help this. I am off everything at the moment and even considering stopping the diet because the disturbed sleep is driving me crazy.

So, in short even though I have higher pulse and temps when I am peating my sleep is worse, and feel better during the day. My sleep is worse.

I know that increased thyroid will make a person more susceptible to the effects of adrenaline until the body re-adjusts but how long should this take? I have been peating for about a year now.

And no I do not want to take clonidine or any other drug that causes drowsiness because I need to be high functioning during the day. I was taking cyproheptine for a while and got into two car accidents because I was so drowsy.
 

Stilgar

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Hmm, it sounds like something else is causing the adrenaline surges - because being not hypothyroid and bordering slightly hyperthyroid is actually very relaxing and sleep inducing.

How much thyroid did you used to take, if at all?
What is your diet like?
 
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James_001

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Stilgar said:
Hmm, it sounds like something else is causing the adrenaline surges - because being not hypothyroid and bordering slightly hyperthyroid is actually very relaxing and sleep inducing.

How much thyroid did you used to take, if at all?
What is your diet like?

I don't take any thyroid currently, but when I was taking thyroid I was on three grains. My pulse was at 85 bpm and my temps were at 98.6 degrees. I still could not sleep through the night.

My diet is mostly the Danny Roddy interpretation of ray peat. Except I use yogurt instead of milk and concentrated orange juice instead of liquid juice to decease the amount of liquids in my diet. The yogurt is strained so lactic acid shouldn't be an issue.
 

Nicholas

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for what it's worth, i found that this issue was resolved in my life (i would wake up at 5am) when i began doing epsom baths (magnesium). i also vaguely remember that i might have started taurine around the same time (liver glycogen). There's obviously nutritional routes to both.
 
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I encourage people to use the term Ray Peat "Template" instead of "Diet." I think when the Peat-inspired documentary comes out, "On The Back Of A Tiger," people will see that Peat himself thinks an official "diet" is silly. There is no official Peat diet but there is a basic template to play with based on what you like and your financial status. There are also some key Peaty things that people often forget; express yourself creatively and don't be angry/authoritative. To some people, "Peating" is drinking a half gallon of orange juice and whole milk a day, mixed with a package of gummy bears, some liver, and oysters. My definition of "Peating" is nothing like that at all.

Getting adequate direct sunlight without a shirt on has been key for my sleep. I think things like cyproheptine, even when stopped, can mess with sleep.
 

jyb

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James_001 said:
post 114434 Anyone else notice a decrease in quality of sleep since improving their thyroid function?

When I was hypo I could always sleep through the night without waking up, now I get an adrenaline surge at 3 am like clockwork. I have tried a variety of sup and nothing seems to help this. I am off everything at the moment and even considering stopping the diet because the disturbed sleep is driving me crazy.

So, in short even though I have higher pulse and temps when I am peating my sleep is worse, and feel better during the day. My sleep is worse.

I know that increased thyroid will make a person more susceptible to the effects of adrenaline until the body re-adjusts but how long should this take? I have been peating for about a year now.

And no I do not want to take clonidine or any other drug that causes drowsiness because I need to be high functioning during the day. I was taking cyproheptine for a while and got into two car accidents because I was so drowsy.

How long can you go without food without adrenaline or suffering from stressful hunger? I used to have that when I ate in a very frequent feeding mode. Not surprisingly I would be more prone to need feeding and wakeup during the night. Note that a diet which induces "adrenaline surge" is not healthy in my opinion, it should never, ever occur -- adrenalin seems like severe energy deficiency. On a more positive note, in my experience it is intimately related to diet, so you have the ability to change it.
 
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InChristAlone

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jyb said:
post 114614
James_001 said:
post 114434 Anyone else notice a decrease in quality of sleep since improving their thyroid function?

When I was hypo I could always sleep through the night without waking up, now I get an adrenaline surge at 3 am like clockwork. I have tried a variety of sup and nothing seems to help this. I am off everything at the moment and even considering stopping the diet because the disturbed sleep is driving me crazy.

So, in short even though I have higher pulse and temps when I am peating my sleep is worse, and feel better during the day. My sleep is worse.

I know that increased thyroid will make a person more susceptible to the effects of adrenaline until the body re-adjusts but how long should this take? I have been peating for about a year now.

And no I do not want to take clonidine or any other drug that causes drowsiness because I need to be high functioning during the day. I was taking cyproheptine for a while and got into two car accidents because I was so drowsy.

How long can you go without food without adrenaline or suffering from stressful hunger? I used to have that when I ate in a very frequent feeding mode. Not surprisingly I would be more prone to need feeding and wakeup during the night. Note that a diet which induces "adrenaline surge" is not healthy in my opinion, it should never, ever occur -- adrenalin seems like severe energy deficiency. On a more positive note, in my experience it is intimately related to diet, so you have the ability to change it.

So then what changes to diet should be done if there are adrenaline surges? I get them sometimes in the morning, and sometimes in the evening, not at night. I used to get them at all hours of the day and night but just now working on specific times as my sleep is a lot better. I just want even energy during the day it seems like such a balance.
 
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tara

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James_001 said:
post 114579 My diet is mostly the Danny Roddy interpretation of ray peat. Except I use yogurt instead of milk and concentrated orange juice instead of liquid juice to decease the amount of liquids in my diet. The yogurt is strained so lactic acid shouldn't be an issue.

How much? Increased thyroid function usually burns through more fuel, so you can run down sugar stores quicker. That's one way to get night-time adrenaline. I haven't had to do this for quite a while, but a small sweet snack used to let me go back to sleep if I woke up in the night , so I took this as confirmation that low blood sugar was at play. Easy to test.

Do you breath through your nose when you sleep? That's another way to set up a stress reaction. (This can be remedied mechanically.)

I think some people are fine with strained yogurt, but unfortunately not me. You could try swapping it for fresh milk and see if it makes a difference.

How much magnesium are you getting in your diet? And other minerals?

I just came off a different (probably also somewhat antiserotonergic) drug a couple of weeks ago, and am waking up spontaneously alert a bit earlier (not 3am, thankfully). And able to stay alert and focussed and active through the day better.
 
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milk_lover

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tara said:
Do you breath through your nose when you sleep? That's another way to set up a stress reaction. (This can be remedied mechanically.)
How can it be remedied mechanically? Do you close your mouth with a tape?
 

Giraffe

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milk_lover said:
post 114714
tara said:
Do you breath through your nose when you sleep? That's another way to set up a stress reaction. (This can be remedied mechanically.)
How can it be remedied mechanically? Do you close your mouth with a tape?
Yes, it is a tape what Tara meant. Another possibility is a different sleeping postures. Check here post 34635.
 
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tara

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milk_lover said:
post 114714
tara said:
Do you breath through your nose when you sleep? That's another way to set up a stress reaction. (This can be remedied mechanically.)
How can it be remedied mechanically? Do you close your mouth with a tape?
I used a very small piece of a light tape down middle of mouth. Put some grease on and around lips first so it can be removed in the morning without ripping off skin.
Some people use a chin strap.
 
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James_001

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jyb said:
James_001 said:
post 114434 Anyone else notice a decrease in quality of sleep since improving their thyroid function?

When I was hypo I could always sleep through the night without waking up, now I get an adrenaline surge at 3 am like clockwork. I have tried a variety of sup and nothing seems to help this. I am off everything at the moment and even considering stopping the diet because the disturbed sleep is driving me crazy.

So, in short even though I have higher pulse and temps when I am peating my sleep is worse, and feel better during the day. My sleep is worse.

I know that increased thyroid will make a person more susceptible to the effects of adrenaline until the body re-adjusts but how long should this take? I have been peating for about a year now.

And no I do not want to take clonidine or any other drug that causes drowsiness because I need to be high functioning during the day. I was taking cyproheptine for a while and got into two car accidents because I was so drowsy.

How long can you go without food without adrenaline or suffering from stressful hunger? I used to have that when I ate in a very frequent feeding mode. Not surprisingly I would be more prone to need feeding and wakeup during the night. Note that a diet which induces "adrenaline surge" is not healthy in my opinion, it should never, ever occur -- adrenalin seems like severe energy deficiency. On a more positive note, in my experience it is intimately related to diet, so you have the ability to change it.

I can go without food for probably 4 hours and then I get vey hungry. I agree that any diet that induced a surge of adrenaline is not healthy. However, what can I do to change this? I have gone with and without starch, with and without meat, etc..

Nothing seems to make a difference. I eat as many calories as I can and it is usually around 4000 a day. What would you suggest?

I might go back to eating pufa and all kinds of other crap as an experiment to see what works.
 
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James_001

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Westside PUFAs said:
post 114588 I encourage people to use the term Ray Peat "Template" instead of "Diet." I think when the Peat-inspired documentary comes out, "On The Back Of A Tiger," people will see that Peat himself thinks an official "diet" is silly. There is no official Peat diet but there is a basic template to play with based on what you like and your financial status. There are also some key Peaty things that people often forget; express yourself creatively and don't be angry/authoritative. To some people, "Peating" is drinking a half gallon of orange juice and whole milk a day, mixed with a package of gummy bears, some liver, and oysters. My definition of "Peating" is nothing like that at all.

Getting adequate direct sunlight without a shirt on has been key for my sleep. I think things like cyproheptine, even when stopped, can mess with sleep.

I live in a place that is very dark this time of year so that is not a option for me. I have incandescent light bulbs that I use everyday though.

I have tired a lot of variations of the diet and nothing works.
 
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jyb

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James_001 said:
I can go without food for probably 4 hours and then I get vey hungry. I agree that any diet that induced a surge of adrenaline is not healthy. However, what can I do to change this? I have gone with and without starch, with and without meat, etc..

Nothing seems to make a difference. I eat as many calories as I can and it is usually around 4000 a day. What would you suggest?

I might go back to eating pufa and all kinds of other crap as an experiment to see what works.

I tend to view that meal frequency depends a lot on how much carb and fat you eat. On one extreme, I'd do 100% carbs but small frequent meals. On the other, 100% fat much more spaced out. Just need to find the sweet spot, but to me needing frequent feeding barely to avoid stress response is not a robust diet because you'll get it sooner or later if not during the night when you can't snack unless you're not sleeping. In fact it goes against everything Peat writes about, minimising that kind of serious stress. On a good diet you feel good for a while, and then you develop hunger if not eating too long but the build up is gradual and manageable not stressful. It should be that you wake up after a night sleep still fairly relaxed, not immediately thinking about the kitchen for survival. Obviously there are other factors to insomnia, one could be exposure to bright light in the evening, but to me diet was one big part of the puzzle.
 
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James_001

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jyb said:
post 114818
James_001 said:
I can go without food for probably 4 hours and then I get vey hungry. I agree that any diet that induced a surge of adrenaline is not healthy. However, what can I do to change this? I have gone with and without starch, with and without meat, etc..

Nothing seems to make a difference. I eat as many calories as I can and it is usually around 4000 a day. What would you suggest?

I might go back to eating pufa and all kinds of other crap as an experiment to see what works.

I tend to view that meal frequency depends a lot on how much carb and fat you eat. On one extreme, I'd do 100% carbs but small frequent meals. On the other, 100% fat much more spaced out. Just need to find the sweet spot, but to me needing frequent feeding barely to avoid stress response is not a robust diet because you'll get it sooner or later if not during the night when you can't snack unless you're not sleeping. In fact it goes against everything Peat writes about, minimising that kind of serious stress. On a good diet you feel good for a while, and then you develop hunger if not eating too long but the build up is gradual and manageable not stressful. It should be that you wake up after a night sleep still fairly relaxed, not immediately thinking about the kitchen for survival. Obviously there are other factors to insomnia, one could be exposure to bright light in the evening, but to me diet was one big part of the puzzle.

So what do you suggest? I am always starving in the morning. Pulse is at 80 bpm without thyroid, Not sure about temps.
 
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DaveFoster

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So what do you suggest? I am always starving in the morning. Pulse is at 80 bpm without thyroid, Not sure about temps.
Cyproheptadine. You're starving in the morning says that you don't eat enough. You're not eating enough because of elevated stress hormones, which suppress appetite. Caffeine does not help.
 

Peata

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Besides eating enough, you could try a supplement to increase glycogen. I think high dose biotin and/or taurine works the best for me out of what I've tried. Famotidine (Pepcid) is another one that some people like.
 
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marikay

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for what it's worth, i found that this issue was resolved in my life (i would wake up at 5am) when i began doing epsom baths (magnesium). i also vaguely remember that i might have started taurine around the same time (liver glycogen). There's obviously nutritional routes to both.

I had the same issue. And solved it the same way:)
 

tara

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As suggested, epsom salt baths, or some other form of Mg supp, and taurine both seem worth trying.

Didn't Peat at some stage recommend someone set an alarm clock to just before their typical night-time wake up so they could have some juice or something to avoid running sugar low and triggering adrenaline? I don't think that would work for me - I find alarm clocks too alarming. But back when I used to wake up in the middle of the night, a couple of dates as soon as I woke up, preferably without having to sit up or open my eyes, was usually enough to have me asleep again within 5-10 mins.

Possibly meal timing could have an effect too.
 
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James_001

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Cyproheptadine. You're starving in the morning says that you don't eat enough. You're not eating enough because of elevated stress hormones, which suppress appetite. Caffeine does not help.

Cypro makes me feel disoriented that next day, which is weird because I like low dose lsd a lot and to me its feels very different from cypro.

I think I can feel cypro lowering my dopamine levels as I feel very lethargic on it...
 
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