Sleep Difficulties

[Terma]

Glycine CAUSES me and some other people to wake up after 3 hours. It improves the first few hours of sleep for us then ruins the rest of the night. Make sure you're not taking it on faith and assuming it's benign. I never found what causes this.

Honey is about the only thing that's usually safe to consume before bed. However you should heat it up in some water (don't heat up the honey, just put it in hot water) and ditch the other foods (yogurt), and not eat 3-5 hours of anything else before bed, especially protein. It's better to take a pure cal/mag supplement at night than try to eat dairy. Check Ca/Mg/K/Na intake.

You could ask for gabapentin, pregabalin or baclofen as quick measure but you might have to make ***t up to get the prescription (research indications beforehand).

 

[AlphaD]

A

Yeah it's really bad. I've tried most of them, but they all make my feel like an extreme lethargic/depressed zombie with brain fog. When i met my GF... It took me 6 months to remember her sisters names and her birthday... That bad! Because i used a low dose mirtazepine. I was in a sleeping clinic that time. They never saw anyone fall asleep during the day so fast <1 min after a nap test (8 times). They said i had CFS, but all symptoms subsided when i stopped using mirtazepine , lol.

The only thing that worked is Seroquel, but it has serious side effects and a horrible withdrawal (i really felt like a junkie for 3 weeks).

I feel you. It's so frustrating to not be able to sleep properly and see everyday subside because you're tired all day...

About doxylamine and diphenhydramine - they can only be used short-term as effectiveness decreases vastly with regular use. Also, in Holland, i too need a prescription for these... But Cypro is different then most anti-histamines, that's why i would like to try it. Just to catch up on some sleep in the weekends.

LOL! I have the same memory problems as you too! Today I had a cousin message me on Whatsapp that I haven't spoken to for 2 years and she's asked me "guess who this is?" and I couldn't respond because I couldn't remember her name, had to ask my wife :/

I was actually prescribed Mirtazepine in Holland, use to go to Achen to pick up doxy and diphenydramine. I been on and off diphenhydramine for 20 years and it's the only one that seems to work for me for extended periods (over a year of use and effects still good). These sleeping problems started after I tried to come off all the antihistamines and escalated into this disaster I'm in now. I'm also at a point where diphenhydramine will work (this would not be the case 6 months ago due to elevated cortisol levels that built up from all the insomnia). You can come to Istanbul and pick up Cypro over the counter in liquid form!

Keep me posted with your progress and good luck to you man!

 

[tara]

I can' tell for sure as i got no thermometer. But my body temperature is mostly hotter during the night/morning then day (allot of sweating also).

If you don't have a thermometer, then it's hard to know. If you are interesting in understanding what your metabolism is doing, it could be worth getting one. Sweating can be just an indicator of being above the body's current set point - it doesn't tell whether the set point is high or low. My hunch would be that night/early morning sweats are more likely driven by stress at the time than strong metabolism, and don't indicate high base body temperature. A thermometer could be used to measure whether actual temps go up or down after breakfast, etc.

I do wake up sweating allot, sometimes accompanied with high pulse. It's really hard to get sleep again from that point.

I've experienced that in the past. Seldom these days. Hunger stress makes it near impossible for me to get back to sleep. Eating enough carbs and getting more alkaline minerals are factors that I think made a difference. (Could be other changes too.)

Can you tell me more about PUFAS?

See articles on fats and oils on Peat's site: raypeat.com

I already do eat allot of fruit (about 4-6 different pieces a day)

It's relative. If you have other good carb sources, that may be good. Some here eat/drink much more to good effect. (Assuming they are not big melons or something.)
My point was to aim replace some of the fat and as much as possible of the PUFAs in what you say is a relatively high fat diet. If you are looking to put something it its place, fruit has some things going for it - eg minerals, as long as you don't have difficulties with it. The balance of sweet fruit and starchier foods that works seems to vary a bit. If starchy foods work for you, then roots and tubers can be good - potatoes, sweet potatoes, taro, etc - whatever you have access to and agrees with you etc.

How much glycogen your liver can store probably depends on current liver health, hormonal factors affecting when and whether it will actually do it, and available substrate. The first thing to check is that you are supplying enough carbs to allow the body to store some to get you through the night. Cronometer or similar is a relatively easy way to see how much you are getting (ignore it's restrictive low-cal advice). You can post results if you want to. Again, the balance of what works best probably varies by person, but I I'd be surprised if your optimum was as low as 300 (that would be lowish for me as a sedentary middle-aged female) or higher than 600g. If you work hard through the day, you are more likely to burn through the carbs you eat, leaving less to store, though training can improve your muscles' ability to store glycogen.

 

[AlphaD]

Forgot to ask, have you tried sunbathing? I recall my insomnia issues escalated when I moved to Holland and the only thing that changed for me was the amount of sun I was getting compared to where I came from (California). I spent an hour today sunbathing and my mind feels a lot calmer than it has in a long while!

 

[LucasZ]

Glycine CAUSES me and some other people to wake up after 3 hours. It improves the first few hours of sleep for us then ruins the rest of the night. Make sure you're not taking it on faith and assuming it's benign. I never found what causes this.

Honey is about the only thing that's usually safe to consume before bed. However you should heat it up in some water (don't heat up the honey, just put it in hot water) and ditch the other foods (yogurt), and not eat 3-5 hours of anything else before bed, especially protein. It's better to take a pure cal/mag supplement at night than try to eat dairy. Check Ca/Mg/K/Na intake.

You could ask for gabapentin, pregabalin or baclofen as quick measure but you might have to make ***t up to get the prescription (research indications beforehand).

I mostly take glycine whenever i wake up in the night and take a 5g dose. That makes me sleep trough the rest of the night. I wake up almost everyday after about 4 hours.

I'm take raw honey (1table spoon) and magnesium citrate now 30 min. for bedtime. Sometimes accompanied with Inositol. This works quite OK!
Thanks for the suggestions :)

Exercise does seem to worsen my insomnia almost a tenfold. I don't understand...

If you don't have a thermometer, then it's hard to know. If you are interesting in understanding what your metabolism is doing, it could be worth getting one. Sweating can be just an indicator of being above the body's current set point - it doesn't tell whether the set point is high or low. My hunch would be that night/early morning sweats are more likely driven by stress at the time than strong metabolism, and don't indicate high base body temperature. A thermometer could be used to measure whether actual temps go up or down after breakfast, etc.

Ok ill check! I'm one of those persons who still walks in shorts when it's freezing outside lol.

I've experienced that in the past. Seldom these days. Hunger stress makes it near impossible for me to get back to sleep. Eating enough carbs and getting more alkaline minerals are factors that I think made a difference. (Could be other changes too.)

I noticed my sleep is allot better without eating protein at night and switch it for honey and magnesiun. Symptoms seem to exacerbate after fysical activity (weight lifting)

See articles on fats and oils on Peat's site: raypeat.com

I will check. Thanks!

It's relative. If you have other good carb sources, that may be good. Some here eat/drink much more to good effect. (Assuming they are not big melons or something.)
My point was to aim replace some of the fat and as much as possible of the PUFAs in what you say is a relatively high fat diet. If you are looking to put something it its place, fruit has some things going for it - eg minerals, as long as you don't have difficulties with it. The balance of sweet fruit and starchier foods that works seems to vary a bit. If starchy foods work for you, then roots and tubers can be good - potatoes, sweet potatoes, taro, etc - whatever you have access to and agrees with you etc.

Ok i understand! :) I only use olive and coconut oil in my diet and allot of nuts. I scrapped the nuts for the time being.
Most carbs come from sweet potatoes, oats and brown rice.

How much glycogen your liver can store probably depends on current liver health, hormonal factors affecting when and whether it will actually do it, and available substrate. The first thing to check is that you are supplying enough carbs to allow the body to store some to get you through the night. Cronometer or similar is a relatively easy way to see how much you are getting (ignore it's restrictive low-cal advice). You can post results if you want to. Again, the balance of what works best probably varies by person, but I I'd be surprised if your optimum was as low as 300 (that would be lowish for me as a sedentary middle-aged female) or higher than 600g. If you work hard through the day, you are more likely to burn through the carbs you eat, leaving less to store, though training can improve your muscles' ability to store glycogen.

I will check it out. But i think it's quite low since exercise get's me really exhausted. I'm in overly good health though. That's what i don't understand.
I will post a picture soon of how my body looks.

A



LOL! I have the same memory problems as you too! Today I had a cousin message me on Whatsapp that I haven't spoken to for 2 years and she's asked me "guess who this is?" and I couldn't respond because I couldn't remember her name, had to ask my wife :/

I was actually prescribed Mirtazepine in Holland, use to go to Achen to pick up doxy and diphenydramine. I been on and off diphenhydramine for 20 years and it's the only one that seems to work for me for extended periods (over a year of use and effects still good). These sleeping problems started after I tried to come off all the antihistamines and escalated into this disaster I'm in now. I'm also at a point where diphenhydramine will work (this would not be the case 6 months ago due to elevated cortisol levels that built up from all the insomnia). You can come to Istanbul and pick up Cypro over the counter in liquid form!

Keep me posted with your progress and good luck to you man!

Omg it's really bad huh? I'm trying to stay away as much as possible from medicine for sleep, because of these symptoms. I will consider your tip about cypro and keep you updated

 

[LucasZ]

I feel for you, I had the same issues for a long time. Since I started to eat 80% plant based with a lot of raw foods and excluded dairy, I sleep VERY well. Prior to this..I followed Ray's dietary guidelines.

Glad to hear that fixed it for you! :) I tried a diet with no nuts and diary. The only thing it resulted in was that i lost allot lean body mass

 

[danishispsychic]

I finally gave in to the ice cream before bed thing- it really does work for me - but only full fat and just like 1/2 cup or so. I have also had great luck with tart cherry juice concentrate before bed ( amazon ) and not eating ( except a little ice cream ) for like at least 4 hours before bed. I have a deviated septum - so after taking Serrapeptase every day on empty stomach- it has made my breathing better so sleep is better.

 

[tara]

I noticed my sleep is allot better without eating protein at night and switch it for honey and magnesiun.

IIRC, Peat recommends not having too much protein after dark. Personally, I usually do best eating my biggest protein meal around midday, and more lightly in the evening. Good if the honey and Mg work for you.

Ok i understand! :) I only use olive and coconut oil in my diet and allot of nuts. I scrapped the nuts for the time being.

Not sure how much you are eating, but Peat has suggested a teaspoon of olive oil being reasonable. It's about 10% PUFA, which is less than the common seed oils, but still counts if one eats a lot of it. I enjoy a little of it occasionally. Most nuts have quite a bit of PUFA.

Most carbs come from sweet potatoes, oats and brown rice.

I used to eat large quantities of brown rice regularly as my main staple, and at times oats regularly. These days I've backed off to white rice, less frequently, and only occasional oats, in favour of a lot more potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc. I think it serves me better both digestion and mineral-wise. Grains, especially whole grains, have some down-sides in large quantities. (personally there are limits to how much sweet potato I can eat, too - possibly carotenes or something can get excessive if I try to make them too big staple.

 

[LucasZ]

Ok, i followed most of your advice lately and i've been getting better sleep.

I take 1g of glycine with my last big meal (around 8 o'clock) and magnesium citrate 400-600mg when going to sleep.
I skipped the protein before bed and replaced it with one tablespoon of raw honey + glycine 1 1g.

My sleep is better, but i still wake up at 5 o'clock now, very hungry. I cannot resume sleep without eating quite some calories.
So it's properly something with my blood glucose or something.

I know (thanks to these forums that glycine also lowers blood sugar. But bear with me: it's the only supplement which relieves my insomnia and makes me somewhat rested when waking up.

So what can i do to prevent this wake up? Eat more? Maybe some oats with honey?

For a reminder. I have an insanely high metabolism: I can eat 4000-5000 calories daily without gaining fat
To put it bluntly... I'm on the same diet is as i was weightlifting every day and gained (18kg lean mass in 6 months, lol)

 

[AlphaD]

Check out cornstarch.

A randomized, blinded trial of uncooked cornstarch to diminish nocturnal hypoglycemia at diabetes camp. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[fradon]

Hello everybody...

I've been reading allot about sleeping difficulties for a while now and have tried allot.

I've tried several pharmaceutical compounds from amitriptaline to zoldipem (mirtazeojne, seroquel, trazodone, etc). They all work but I'm lethargic and not motivated to do anything. Only seroquel worked wonders! But I also had to quit that because I had terrible anxiety attacks and I was sweating non stop.

Also tried almost every natural compound. Melatonin, glycine, inositol, ornithine, valerian, etc but none seem to help enough. Glycine works OK, but I keep waking up after four hours.

The problem is that I have problems with sleep maintenance. I wake up quite often and have been dealing with this problem like 20 years (I'm 30 now). It has put my professional career on a low level and also working out is really hard because I'm always tired. If I do too much I don't sleep at all.

I've also visited 4 sleeping clinics and tried cbt-i, but that didn't work out anything. This problems even occur when I'm on holiday... Sleep hygiëne is good.

I'm at a loss what to do next because my quality of life is crap like this. Any advice on medication or what I can try because I feel groggy as hell in the morning...

Thanks allot!
I calling my doc to morrow for cypro

do you ever fall asleep on the couch watching tv late at night but when you go to bed you can't sleep? it could be depression

sleep depravation increases dopamine and dopamine antagonizes serotonin which converts to melotonin and helps you sleep....this is brain serotonin and not gut serotonin.

so staying awake is raising your dopamine levels...you should get your histamine levels checked to see how you are methylating...maybe your dopamine/adreanline is too high and you may be able to decrease them by eating folate rich foods not folic acid supplements...turnip greens are good source

 

[Terma]

Well, unlike you I experimented and concretely convinced myself that a lot of my nightly awakenings including Glycine response was not caused by low blood sugar or depleted liver glycogen. However it's quite possible that's the case for others. It sounds plausible for your case.

Still I should point out, one guy I briefly corresponded with used Glycine before bed for a few weeks and started waking up exactly 3 hours after falling asleep. Except, it continued even after he stopped the glycine, and became permanent. Somehow the glycine messed up his circadian rhythm, I never knew. There's something going on there that's not sufficiently explained on these forums.

If your problem is truly low blood sugar, it's problematic, because you also need to avoid too much fiber before bed, because the fiber stimulates gut microbiome and also keeps you awake. Despite that the fiber would otherwise help to promote a steady glucose release into the night [AND keep you satiated]. So fiber is both good and bad for this, and accordingly I've had mixed experiences with it. You could try a little more fiber, maybe later in the evening, but most likely it's suboptimal and may backfire. You should be able to go for a good 12 hours without glucose infusion, when you're better. Usually women seem to have a harder time with this, and coincidentally RP worked especially with women.

Deranged immune activity is also tightly linked to circadian rhythm issues, and gut microbiome, so keep that in mind, though I have no specific solutions for you there. In my opinion Paul Jaminet's advice on circadian rhythm is better than than Ray Peat's, for men especially, because it deals with these things more explicitly. Although neither of them would specifically endorse honey.

KEEP IN MIND: Although I've had sleep issues much like you most of my life, my metabolism is very different. In fact if I tried to eat 4000 cal, that would keep me awake even more. So I'm trying to imagine your case, but it sounds as though you're the "easily mTor-activated" type that Joe Cohen from self-hacked described some people to be (I don't particularly value his opinion but he and his editors compile a lot of valuable information): All About mTOR and Natural mTOR Inhibitors - Selfhacked

I'm not in the best state to evaluate your situation further but I figured you'd rather get some ideas now than spend more time staring at the ceiling waiting for more replies to come in.

 

[burtlancast]

At what time do you usually fall asleep at night?

You seriously need to give iodine a try: it's known to regularize the circadian rhythm.

It will detoxify both bromine and fluoride from your brain, which can both affect the sleep centers.

It will neutralize pufas by reducing them, and will chelate heavy metals: be careful with eating too much fish: it contains mercury.

Give as well blue blocking glasses a chance, and look for microwave radiation sources inside your home ( do you have cordless phones or use WIFI?).

 

[LucasZ]

do you ever fall asleep on the couch watching tv late at night but when you go to bed you can't sleep? it could be depression

sleep depravation increases dopamine and dopamine antagonizes serotonin which converts to melotonin and helps you sleep....this is brain serotonin and not gut serotonin.

so staying awake is raising your dopamine levels...you should get your histamine levels checked to see how you are methylating...maybe your dopamine/adreanline is too high and you may be able to decrease them by eating folate rich foods not folic acid supplements...turnip greens are good source

I never fall asleep on the couch. Im tired and sleepy, but i can only sleep in bed :P

Well, unlike you I experimented and concretely convinced myself that a lot of my nightly awakenings including Glycine response was not caused by low blood sugar or depleted liver glycogen. However it's quite possible that's the case for others. It sounds plausible for your case.

Still I should point out, one guy I briefly corresponded with used Glycine before bed for a few weeks and started waking up exactly 3 hours after falling asleep. Except, it continued even after he stopped the glycine, and became permanent. Somehow the glycine messed up his circadian rhythm, I never knew. There's something going on there that's not sufficiently explained on these forums.

If your problem is truly low blood sugar, it's problematic, because you also need to avoid too much fiber before bed, because the fiber stimulates gut microbiome and also keeps you awake. Despite that the fiber would otherwise help to promote a steady glucose release into the night [AND keep you satiated]. So fiber is both good and bad for this, and accordingly I've had mixed experiences with it. You could try a little more fiber, maybe later in the evening, but most likely it's suboptimal and may backfire. You should be able to go for a good 12 hours without glucose infusion, when you're better. Usually women seem to have a harder time with this, and coincidentally RP worked especially with women.

Deranged immune activity is also tightly linked to circadian rhythm issues, and gut microbiome, so keep that in mind, though I have no specific solutions for you there. In my opinion Paul Jaminet's advice on circadian rhythm is better than than Ray Peat's, for men especially, because it deals with these things more explicitly. Although neither of them would specifically endorse honey.

KEEP IN MIND: Although I've had sleep issues much like you most of my life, my metabolism is very different. In fact if I tried to eat 4000 cal, that would keep me awake even more. So I'm trying to imagine your case, but it sounds as though you're the "easily mTor-activated" type that Joe Cohen from self-hacked described some people to be (I don't particularly value his opinion but he and his editors compile a lot of valuable information): All About mTOR and Natural mTOR Inhibitors - Selfhacked

I'm not in the best state to evaluate your situation further but I figured you'd rather get some ideas now than spend more time staring at the ceiling waiting for more replies to come in.

Thanks allot for responding! Really interesting! :)

I don't know for sure. As it still seems to happen even though i change my fiber or carb intake before bed.
Maybe it does has something to do with the fact that glycine has some strange effect on circadian rhytm? I do love the effects of glycine though. It makes my body seem cooler and ready for sleep.
Normally that's doesn't really happen... I can't really find any scientific studies about the wake up after 4 hours when using glycine. It's recommended on allot of places to sleep through the night, lol.

Maybe i should try to skip it for a while, or double dose when i wake up?

About mTOR, this might be going on indeed. But i've been always really skinny (naturally). I had no bodyfat whatsoever. I just started to workout more and eat more. That seemed to fix it. Nowadays i can't train like i used too, because i'm to tired...

At what time do you usually fall asleep at night?

You seriously need to give iodine a try: it's known to regularize the circadian rhythm.

It will detoxify both bromine and fluoride from your brain, which can both affect the sleep centers.

It will neutralize pufas by reducing them, and will chelate heavy metals: be careful with eating too much fish: it contains mercury.

Give as well blue blocking glasses a chance, and look for microwave radiation sources inside your home ( do you have cordless phones or use WIFI?).

I wish i found these forums earlier! So much good and constructive feedback :)

i naturally fall asleep around 11:30-0.00. I live in an apartment building with lotsa wifi signals, so it's hard to escape that :P

I will give iodine a try :)

 

[burtlancast]

I live in an apartment building with lotsa wifi signals, so it's hard to escape that :P

You can protect yourself with a Faraday cage.

 

[LucasZ]

Ok, it's been a while now since my last post... And allot has been changed... For the good :)

I've had contact with my doc. I asked for a prescription for silenor (or low dose doxepin). At first i was a little anxious because i've tried tons of meds, all with horrible side effect profile.

My routine:
Drink a alcohol-free beer with 1g glycine + 1 g inositol 3 hours before sleep.
30 mins before sleep i take 1.5-3 mg doxepin.

Why doxepin?
Low dose doxepin has the ability to restore endogenous melatonin secretion within 2-3 weeks

After three weeks of oral doxepin intake by the patients, the area under the curve of total nocturnal plasma melatonin concentration was significantly increased by 26% and the peak values were increased by 30%

and it normalizes cortisol secretion at night bij inhibiting the HPA-axis

 The sleep-improving effects of doxepin are paralleled by a normalized plasma cortisol secretion in primary insomnia.

The results have been consistent for a while now. I've been catching up on sleep tremendously now! Finally no more daytime fatigue, lethargy and brain fog. I don't really notice any side effects atm, except for more sweating (but its exceptionally hot here atm) and a unsatisfiable libido lol. But that's no problem

I do wake up sometimes now and have to go to the bathroom, but i fall asleep quite easily again. I do like sleeping again

 

[Aymen]

hey , try this :
sunlight.
calories surplus .
good carb meal 2 hours before bed like white rice or milk and fruits and honey .
breath exercice 5 min when you wake up in the morning and 5 min before bed.
sleep preferably in dark .
when you drink coffee let at least 3-6 hours before going to bed ( caffeine affects sleep ).
avoid using computer or phone or TV 30 min before bed , you can do a little walk instead .
write what you did today in journal and say i did everything good ( don't think about tomorrow ).
exercice in the day helps too.
Done !

 

[Terma]

Ok, it's been a while now since my last post... And allot has been changed... For the good :)

I've had contact with my doc. I asked for a prescription for silenor (or low dose doxepin). At first i was a little anxious because i've tried tons of meds, all with horrible side effect profile.

My routine:
Drink a alcohol-free beer with 1g glycine + 1 g inositol 3 hours before sleep.
30 mins before sleep i take 1.5-3 mg doxepin.

Why doxepin?
Low dose doxepin has the ability to restore endogenous melatonin secretion within 2-3 weeks

After three weeks of oral doxepin intake by the patients, the area under the curve of total nocturnal plasma melatonin concentration was significantly increased by 26% and the peak values were increased by 30%

and it normalizes cortisol secretion at night bij inhibiting the HPA-axis

 The sleep-improving effects of doxepin are paralleled by a normalized plasma cortisol secretion in primary insomnia.

The results have been consistent for a while now. I've been catching up on sleep tremendously now! Finally no more daytime fatigue, lethargy and brain fog. I don't really notice any side effects atm, except for more sweating (but its exceptionally hot here atm) and a unsatisfiable libido lol. But that's no problem

I do wake up sometimes now and have to go to the bathroom, but i fall asleep quite easily again. I do like sleeping again

That's great, whatever works (when you get to this point). Hadn't heard of doxepin but seems interesting: "At low doses, below 25 mg, doxepin is a pure antihistamine"

 

[LucasZ]

hey , try this :
sunlight.
calories surplus .
good carb meal 2 hours before bed like white rice or milk and fruits and honey .
breath exercice 5 min when you wake up in the morning and 5 min before bed.
sleep preferably in dark .
when you drink coffee let at least 3-6 hours before going to bed ( caffeine affects sleep ).
avoid using computer or phone or TV 30 min before bed , you can do a little walk instead .
write what you did today in journal and say i did everything good ( don't think about tomorrow ).
exercice in the day helps too.
Done !

Lol, if it only was that easy. I've been trying that for years. But still i wake up constantly ...

That's great, whatever works (when you get to this point). Hadn't heard of doxepin but seems interesting: "At low doses, below 25 mg, doxepin is a pure antihistamine"

Yeah indeed. It's highly selective on the H1 receptors when used in low dosages.
I've not noticed any side-effects like most medicine (and i really sensitive for side-effects).

The increased sweating is properly because i use inositol, so i'm gonna try to skip it for a few days.
To paint a picture here. I worked out in the moring (6 hours ago) and im still drenched in sweat (already took a shower 2 times today, lol).

 

[shepherdgirl]

Hi there - i have tried many things to sleep thru the night. Occasionally if I ate a lot of food throughout the day i could sleep well, but mostly i would wake up and have to eat something. But what works the best for me for sleeping through the night is taking taurine and a casein shake before bed (and eating enough during the day). i make the shake with lots of fructose or sugar and some salt. Recently had to stop because the casein was upsetting my stomach. but i will be slowly adding it back in since i am waking up again. This idea comes from natedawggh's old posts - check them out, they are very useful!