Skim Milk Caused A Surge Of Estrogen

[DaveFoster]

Take a good look at Aajonus Vonderplanitz and tell me how estrogenic he looks.

He was on 2 quarts of raw milk a day on average for most his life

He's one of the most interesting people that I've ever listened to. It's a shame that he fell off that balcony, as I'd like to have seen how he aged and listened to how his lifestyle changed over time.

I mimicked his diet somewhat for several months.

Anything the medical profession says, do the opposite 99 percent of the time, and you'll be right.

 

[nwo2012]

Id blame the highly estrogenic oats over the milk every time tbh.

 

[ShotTrue]

Even beyond the estrogen content the opiate peptides in milk can directly lower dopamine and thus raise prolactin by blocking dopamines inhibition of prolactin.

Endogenous Opioid Peptides Contribute to Suckling-Induced Prolactin Release by Suppressing Tyrosine Hydroxylase Activity and Messenger Ribonucleic Acid Levels in Tuberoinfundibular Dopaminergic Neurons *

Effect of casein and beta-casomorphins on gastrointestinal motility in rats. - PubMed - NCBI

I think milk consumption depends on the person to a large extent.

Role of Milk-Derived Opioid Peptides and Proline Dipeptidyl Peptidase-4 in Autism Spectrum Disorders

Wheat has opiate peptides as well:
The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease | Journal of Health, Population and Nutrition | Full Text

Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier - ScienceDirect

The opiates, when digested well become inert

 

[ShotTrue]

@RisingSun
Source of dairy and individual tolerance matters. Animals milked not during thier pregnancy have way less hormones. A2 animals have way less opiogenic effects. A raw, properly produced grass fed goat dairy will most likely be way different in a person who tolerates dairy well than an industrial cow dairy in someone who does not.

Interesting point

 

[CLASH]

@ShotTrue
They can be found intact in the blood stream, so they arent really inert. Did you read the article on autism and opiate peptides, the peptides are found intact exerting an effect in human children. They are also found intact in many other animals.

Many peptides can be found intact, surviving digestion. This includes bromelain and serrapeptase which are whole proteins...

Dairy is not suitable for everyone, atleast in my experience and opinion. Research supports this. Anecdotal evidence supports this. All the fat people with digestion issues on this forum, once adopting a “ray peat” diet supports this. Theres only a few people here who actually adhere to a dairy based diet and are doing well. I have one friend who handles dairy like a champ, makes him lean and strong, but even he had to switch to A2 and he notices lack of motivation from the opiate effect. My other friends who used dairy got gyno, acne, hairloss, weight gain, messed up periods, bowel issues including diarrhea and constipation and sinus congestion. Despite what people believe and want to believe, the actual reality is different. I tried to eat dairy of all type for 2 years straight... i have posts on this forum discussing my usage and theories about it. It wrecked me. I got fat, slight gyno, acne, hairloss, extreme constipation, sinus congestion and prostate pain. I handled kefir better than dairy by far. I tolerated raw goat milk the best but still couldnt drink more than 16oz without hormonal issues. I had the libido of an old man on goats milk. When I dropped milk, i dropped 20lbs in 2 weeks of straight up water weight.

Also, one of the worst amino acid ratio of all the foods is dairy. It has some of the most tryptophan. Meat has a much better profile, especially ground beef and especially if collagen is added. Without dairy the hardest element to obtain is calcium.

 

[ShotTrue]

@ShotTrue
They can be found intact in the blood stream, so they arent really inert. Did you read the article on autism and opiate peptides, the peptides are found intact exerting an effect in human children. They are also found intact in many other animals.

Many peptides can be found intact, surviving digestion. This includes bromelain and serrapeptase which are whole proteins...

Dairy is not suitable for everyone, atleast in my experience and opinion. Research supports this. Anecdotal evidence supports this. All the fat people with digestion issues on this forum, once adopting a “ray peat” diet supports this. Theres only a few people here who actually adhere to a dairy based diet and are doing well. I have one friend who handles dairy like a champ, makes him lean and strong, but even he had to switch to A2 and he notices lack of motivation from the opiate effect. My other friends who used dairy got gyno, acne, hairloss, weight gain, messed up periods, bowel issues including diarrhea and constipation and sinus congestion. Despite what people believe and want to believe, the actual reality is different. I tried to eat dairy of all type for 2 years straight... i have posts on this forum discussing my usage and theories about it. It wrecked me. I got fat, slight gyno, acne, hairloss, extreme constipation, sinus congestion and prostate pain. I handled kefir better than dairy by far. I tolerated raw goat milk the best but still couldnt drink more than 16oz without hormonal issues. I had the libido of an old man on goats milk. When I dropped milk, i dropped 20lbs in 2 weeks of straight up water weight.

Also, one of the worst amino acid ratio of all the foods is dairy. It has some of the most tryptophan. Meat has a much better profile, especially ground beef and especially if collagen is added. Without dairy the hardest element to obtain is calcium.

Well I've drank whole milk for years without gyno, hairloss, fat gain, acne, bowel issues, diarrhea, constipation, or sinus congestion.
So you don't like any form of milk is what you're saying? I'm asking because it sounds like you are avoiding all forms of milk

What I said about the opiates being inert if you digest milk well was some study info another user posted previously. I'm not a fan of opiates either, however as far as I can tell I feel far weaker without whole milk in my diet, and lowering the fat levels by going 1% or skim makes me feel worse as well.
I'll probably try A2 milk or raw grassfed milk, I'm just here to say I drank whole milk for years with normal/low blood estrogen values and very little problems

 

[ShotTrue]

I think the best thing about dairy is it's pro male hormone/pro igf-1 and the fact it is such a easy and convenient form of protein. A glass of whole milk adds 10g of protein to any meal.

 

[ShotTrue]

Perhaps another fact in tolerating dairy is weight training congruently. This would lower estrogen and raise IGFBP-3 in balance to the IGF-1

 

[CLASH]

@ShotTrue
I personally dont but I think certain people tolerate it very well. My personal recommendation to anyone for most things is to test it out. I just dont think the idea that everyone should be able to tolerate milk is a reality. Some people such as yourself, my friend and ray peat seem to do quite well. Some people such as myself dont do so great.

I did better on whole milk than on skim. My friend prefers whole A2 milk.

This is from Travis:

 

[CLASH]

@ShotTrue
What I’m saying is If milk works for you I wouldnt avoid it. It is definetly one of the better foods, but its a grey area in my opinion. Many people dont do well with it, and i listed some plausble reasons as to why. For some people those reasons are non-issues. As far as ideal/ safest human foods go I would say these are it:

-ruminant animal meat
-specific seafood
-cocoa butter, coconut oil, beef tallow, butter (grey area)
-specific fruit
-specific vegeables
-starchy tubers (grey area, some people can do them, some cant)
-dairy (grey area, same as above)

 

[Waremu]

@ShotTrue
What I’m saying is If milk works for you I wouldnt avoid it. It is definetly one of the better foods, but its a grey area in my opinion. Many people dont do well with it, and i listed some plausble reasons as to why. For some people those reasons are non-issues. As far as ideal/ safest human foods go I would say these are it:

-ruminant animal meat
-specific seafood
-cocoa butter, coconut oil, beef tallow, butter (grey area)
-specific fruit
-specific vegeables
-starchy tubers (grey area, some people can do them, some cant)
-dairy (grey area, same as above)

I think white rice and greens combined are far superior to a complete diet than tubers are, personally. Especially if you’re cutting out dairy already, you’re already set back in trying to obtain sufficient quality calcium, and overburdening your diet with high phosphorus, low calcium foods makes it even harder, thus setting you back more (if you want to keep a favorable calcium to phosphorus ratio, more phosphorus generally means more calcium to offset that). And especially if you’re doing meat already, you need sufficient quality calcium to offset the phosphorus of that (which is worsened if tubers are included).

So if I were doing no diary, I would keep in meat and ditch/limit tubers and use low phosphorus starches like white rice. White rice is empty calories, so in that regard tubers are better, but tubers are heavily linked to digestive upset issues as well for many people, and most of the good stuff you get in tubers can easily be offset by adding greens with white rice, like many traditional Asian cultures have done and still do. Well cooked greens are likely far easier on the system for most people than potatoes are.

It’s extremely hard to do a dairy free and low PUFA diet which also has a favorable calcium to photoshops balance, but it can be done with lean proteins, plenty of leafy greens, fruit, and low phosphorus starches like white rice. I think this is probably the sweet spot for those looking to stay Peat if they are diary free. And if you cook it in a slow cooker or pressure cooker, you can get it to the point where it’s so well cooked in its own juices that it’s very digestible even for people with weaker digestive systems. There are plenty of low oxalate high calcium greens like Bok Choy, etc. Paired with low PUFA white fish like cod or lean meat and it’s pretty nutritionally dense. Oranges and greens can add enough calcium where calcium supplementation isn’t needed if phosphorus is kept relatively low enough in the diet by using lean meats and white rice over most grains.

 

[CLASH]

@Waremu
Thats why I listed tubers as a grey area, alot of people have issues with them. Especially yams and sweet potatoes.

I’d skip the white rice and just use fruit and fruit juice. Greens, fruit and fruit juice are much more nutritious than rice. I think over time rice can lead to a bacterial overgrowth as well. It seems that the refined foods, including sucrose stimulate bacterial growth pretty quickly. The polyphenols, flavonoids and other compounds in yams, sweet potatoes, fruit and fruit juice seem to inhibit microbial growth to some extent, atleast more so that refined foods like white rice and sucrose. In my experience initially white rice and sucrose digest quite well, but eventually I start to get some bloating from them. Takes a week or so to develop, eating these foods multiple meals a day. This may or may not be the reason but many asians have small pot bellies when they get older, i think this is due to bacteria from all the starch.

As for calcium, I currently supplement calcium carbonate to meet my needs. I wonder how much calcium is really needed considering the only real source available is dairy. You’d have to eat way too much greens to get what you need and they come with a bunch of issues themselves. Either way I feel better when i supplement the calcium, has a relaxing effect.

 

[Waremu]

@Waremu
Thats why I listed tubers as a grey area, alot of people have issues with them. Especially yams and sweet potatoes.

I’d skip the white rice and just use fruit and fruit juice. Greens, fruit and fruit juice are much more nutritious than rice. I think over time rice can lead to a bacterial overgrowth as well. It seems that the refined foods, including sucrose stimulate bacterial growth pretty quickly. The polyphenols, flavonoids and other compounds in yams, sweet potatoes, fruit and fruit juice seem to inhibit microbial growth to some extent, atleast more so that refined foods like white rice and sucrose. In my experience initially white rice and sucrose digest quite well, but eventually I start to get some bloating from them. Takes a week or so to develop, eating these foods multiple meals a day. This may or may not be the reason but many asians have small pot bellies when they get older, i think this is due to bacteria from all the starch.

As for calcium, I currently supplement calcium carbonate to meet my needs. I wonder how much calcium is really needed considering the only real source available is dairy. You’d have to eat way too much greens to get what you need and they come with a bunch of issues themselves. Either way I feel better when i supplement the calcium, has a relaxing effect.

Rice instead of fruit was mentioned because it was in context of replacing a starch with starch, hence tubers for white rice. If one wants to juice have fruit instead of starch, then yes, thats also doable and I'd do that personally. Having certain spices and coconut oil and maybe orange juice with white rice may make it more anti-bacterial as well, but fruit is always going to be better in my view. Without rice, well cooked greens mixed with meats go just as fine as well. I'm personally not comfortable relying on calcium supplements as it makes me feel my diet is not natural or is incomplete, among other things.

 

[CLASH]

@Waremu
Makes sense, in that context I agree, if you want starch and tubers are no go, rice would be a viable alternative.

When I mentioned the few on the forum who tolerate milk well, I was thinking of you and tca300. If I could tolerate dairy I’d for sure eat it, I do enjoy the taste, just not the effects.

 

[YourUniverse]

@WaremuAs for calcium, I currently supplement calcium carbonate to meet my needs. I wonder how much calcium is really needed considering the only real source available is dairy. You’d have to eat way too much greens to get what you need and they come with a bunch of issues themselves. Either way I feel better when i supplement the calcium, has a relaxing effect.

eggshell powder?

 

[CLASH]

@jamies33
Didnt agree with me and I dont eat many eggs so getting the shells is a conundrum. I did try it tho. I tried calcium malate, calcium citrate, calcium citrate malate and microcrystaline hydroxyapatite as well. Got GI issues from all of them. With the egg shells I boiled them to get the membrane off, then baked them to dry them out and then used a coffee grinder to ground them. Still no bueno.

 

[YourUniverse]

@jamies33
Didnt agree with me and I dont eat many eggs so getting the shells is a conundrum. I did try it tho. I tried calcium malate, calcium citrate, calcium citrate malate and microcrystaline hydroxyapatite as well. Got GI issues from all of them. With the egg shells I boiled them to get the membrane off, then baked them to dry them out and then used a coffee grinder to ground them. Still no bueno.

Can you link to the carbonate supplement u use?

 

[CLASH]

Calcium Carbonate (Mineral)

@jamies33

I mix it with ascorbic acid and magnesium gluconate into an 8oz glass of grape juice. The ascorbic acid reacts with it, making the grape juice carbonated and the ascorbic acid buffered. Its pretty refreshing.

 

[YourUniverse]

Calcium Carbonate (Mineral)

@jamies33

I mix it with ascorbic acid and magnesium gluconate into an 8oz glass of grape juice. The ascorbic acid reacts with it, making the grape juice carbonated and the ascorbic acid buffered. Its pretty refreshing.

Ordered for a friend, thanks

 

[RisingSun]

I think the best thing about dairy is it's pro male hormone/pro igf-1 and the fact it is such a easy and convenient form of protein. A glass of whole milk adds 10g of protein to any meal.

You measured serum androgens and igf-1 before and after dairy and you saw a significant increase?
What form of dairy? Milk? Cheese? Pasteurized? Full fat?