Skim Milk Caused A Surge Of Estrogen

DaveFoster

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Yesterday, March 18th of 2019, I worked outdoors and ran out of milk, so I ate about 20 grams of protein for the day. The next day, I ate some oatmeal without milk for breakfast and eventually bought another gallon, of which I drank a few cups at around 1:00 PM. About 20 minutes after drinking, I experienced this severe burning sensation behind my left nipple, where there lies a gynecomastia lump leftover from puberty. After about 15 minutes, the sensation decreased dramatically and went away completely within an hour.

I cannot ever recall experiencing symptoms of comparable severity after consuming food, and I can't remember a day in the past four years wherein I've eaten less than 50 grams of protein; I often eat closer to 150 grams. The only similar estrogenic symptoms appeared when I ate too many beans.

Dr. Peat has said that insufficient protein impairs liver function and retards the body's elimination of estrogen. If applicable to my case, the increased protein intake allowed the body to process estrogen over the previous two days. Similarly, those who use progesterone sometimes report a paradoxical increase in estrogenic symptoms from a lower dosage, whereas a higher dosage has the opposite effect.
 
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RobertJM

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As the metabolic rate increases there is a demand for sufficient animal protein that’s for sure. It’s the same with my body. Not having enough animal protein and my body punishes me with the cooling of extremeties, etc.
 
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DaveFoster

DaveFoster

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Olive hates milk. Whole milk > skim milk, why would you remove the anabolic saturated fats
Because the milk fat has the majority of the estradiol (E2), the most potent form of estrogen. E1 and E3 have more benign effects by comparison.
 

ilikecats

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don't forget androgens are in there too... there was a ton of mania in the hair loss community relatively recently about avoiding milk because it contains DHT metabolites... Progesterone is in there of course too. Meat should have some estrogen in it too... varying depending on the usual suspects but it should always be there. I would never ditch skim milk its objectively a bad move (not that youre planning on ditching it). Did you end up setting something up with Ray btw?
 

TripleOG

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Travis touched on this awhile ago.

The Travis Corner

I wouldn't be so sure about skim milk being lower in estrogen. Of course this is everyone's first impression as estradiol itself is lipid-soluble, but it does actually bind significantly to the protein fraction (albumin I think). Let me see what I can find (using sci-hub.tw and GoogleScholar):

Farlow, D. "Quantitative measurement of endogenous estrogen metabolites, risk-factors for development of breast cancer, in commercial milk products by LC–MS/MS." Journal of Chromatography B (2009)

Chromatography is going to be accurate; check-out their admirable calibration curves:


View attachment 8633

They had bought milk from a grocery store in Maryland, had extracted the steroids using methanol, had analyzed that, and then had hydrolyzed the sulfated and glucoronidated metabolites and had then measured those. Below is a graph showing both free and conjugated metabolites of estrogens:

View attachment 8634

The skim actually milk has more total estrogens as expressed per unit volume. Although the fatty fraction could have more than its fair share, it is less dense than the protein and water fractions. Moreover, the fatty fraction likely has more lipid-soluble steroids crowding-out the space available for estrogens: cholesterol, pregnenolone, progesterone, and the androgens are all slightly more lipid-soluble than estradiol because they have less polar groups. The estrogens are also quite unique chemically in that they have a planar ring which would be expected to give them extra protein affinity due to hypothetical π–π stacking with the aromatic amino acids phenylalanine, tyrosine, tryptophan, and histidine. And of course, the sulfate group makes a steroid much more water-soluble and is likely the very reason why mammalian enzymes use them for this purpose; the sulfate groups ostensibly prime the steroids for excretion in the urine. Some of these estradiols were also glucuronidated although they hadn't discriminated between the two conjugated species in the above study. I'd think the glucoronic acid conjugates would likely be even more water-soluble than the sulfates on account of their −1 formal charge on the carboxyl group in addition to the three partial charges contributed by their hydroxyl groups—and the two by their ether groups.

So I would vote going full-fat. If I were to buy cheese right now, I'd go full-fat (although Emmentaler is a good cheese made exclusively from part-skim, and a legal requirement to labeled as such). This would both raise the calories ingested by the fuel-efficient as sometimes beneficial (i.e. stearic aid) saturated fatty acids and lower the total amount protein ingested—which could be seen as a plus to body builders but protein is harder to metabolize for energy than are saturated fatty acids. Skim milk would also have more casein both per calorie and per unit volume, meaning that it would also have more β-casomorphin per calorie or lilter.

There's also the possibility that skim milk could have either an enriched estrogen∶androgen ratio and/'or and increased estrogen∶progesterone ratio—or both—than full-fat milk should the milkfat happen to have more than its fair share of those (you might expect this based on solubility, and also because progesterone is not conjugated as frequently). Perhaps it would be helpful to see the comparative fractionation of all steroids to get a better idea?

Courant, Frédérique. "Determination of naturally occurring oestrogens and androgens in retail samples of milk and eggs." Food additives and contaminants (2007)

As a side-note, there is great variability of egg steroid content from one hen to another.

'Purified Helix pomatia preparation was used for steroid deconjugation (Sigma, St Louis, MO, USA).' ―Courant

Suspicion confirmed: It looks as if the process of skimming not only increases the total estrogen concentration but also decreases the total androgen concentration:

View attachment 8636

Adding the total androgens together—(34 +32 +296)—yields a value of 362 nanograms per liter in the skimmed milk and also—(65 +78 +934)—a value of 1077·ng/L for the whole milk. Referencing Figure 4 above (the estrogen determination) yields value of 458 and 323·pg/mL, in skimmed and whole milk respectively. Although the authors had used different units, it's easy to show that they are equivalent (multiplying by 10³/10³ is the same as multiplying by one):

pg/mL × (10³/10³) = ng/L

So the process of skimming would obviously lead to a gross inflation of the estrogen∶androgen ratio—now in numbers:

Whole: 323/1077 = .300
Skim: 458/362 = 1.27

A quadrupling of the estrogen∶androgen ratio is observed upon skimming. And conversely, the cream would be expected to get the reciprocal—or a fourfold higher androgen ratio.

TL;DR:

So the process of skimming would obviously lead to a gross inflation of the estrogen∶androgen ratio—now in numbers:

Whole: 323/1077 = .300
Skim: 458/362 = 1.27

A quadrupling of the estrogen∶androgen ratio is observed upon skimming. And conversely, the cream would be expected to get the reciprocal—or a fourfold higher androgen ratio.
 

LuMonty

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If I've consumed something that shouldn't be estrogenic but may inhibit it, I get the same as well. Had a larger serving of protein with lunch today and had the same. Typically if I maintain that amount of protein for a week I can tell better how much I need overall. In this case, I had been a bit low on protein the last few days so I'm fairly certain I needed the large amount I've had today.

For comparison, I only get that feeling when I take vitamin E if I haven't had enough protein. If I have, there's still a reduction in swelling etc but no sorts of pain.
 

postman

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Dairy is the worst gyno fuel on the planet, way worse than soy or xenoestrogens or whatever else people worry about. And the fattier it is, the worse it's gonna be.
 

YourUniverse

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Dr. Peat has said that insufficient protein impairs liver function and retards the body's elimination of estrogen. If applicable to my case, the increased protein intake allowed the body to process estrogen over the previous two days. Similarly, those who use progesterone sometimes report a paradoxical increase in estrogenic symptoms from a lower dosage, whereas a higher dosage has the opposite effect.

^This was what I was thinking as I read your first 2 paragraphs. Concentration camp survivors grew breasts when they began eating normally, as they severe malnutrition was being processed.

Really dont think the sudden burst of milk intake caused your sensitive nipples - its the 20g protein the day prior (IMO)
 

ShotTrue

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Dairy is the worst gyno fuel on the planet, way worse than soy or xenoestrogens or whatever else people worry about. And the fattier it is, the worse it's gonna be.
I completely disagree .. coming from someone who drinks a lot of whole milk and zero gyno!
 

Inaut

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Doesn’t all of this come down to liver function and detoxification? If your liver is sluggish, it may be offensive but if it’s working efficiently.... shouldn’t have estrogenic effects in the body? Or am I viewing things far to simplistically?
 
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DaveFoster

DaveFoster

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As the metabolic rate increases there is a demand for sufficient animal protein that’s for sure. It’s the same with my body. Not having enough animal protein and my body punishes me with the cooling of extremeties, etc.
Just by itself, protein's thermogenic.
don't forget androgens are in there too... there was a ton of mania in the hair loss community relatively recently about avoiding milk because it contains DHT metabolites... Progesterone is in there of course too. Meat should have some estrogen in it too... varying depending on the usual suspects but it should always be there. I would never ditch skim milk its objectively a bad move (not that youre planning on ditching it). Did you end up setting something up with Ray btw?
He drank around a gallon every day, and frequently whole or 2%, for the past several decades, and he's mentally coherent and physically healthy at the age of 81. I haven't yet asked him, no. I really do want to give him a sizable gift to honor him and express gratitude for helping me so much over the past several years. I'm a student so not particularly financially secure, but I will see where I'm at by the end of this term.

Dairy is the worst gyno fuel on the planet, way worse than soy or xenoestrogens or whatever else people worry about. And the fattier it is, the worse it's gonna be.
I can't recall ever getting sensitive nipples after drinking lowfat or skim milk, but I believe I occasionally did while drinking a lot of whole milk, as in 1-2 gallons daily.
^This was what I was thinking as I read your first 2 paragraphs. Concentration camp survivors grew breasts when they began eating normally, as they severe malnutrition was being processed.

Really dont think the sudden burst of milk intake caused your sensitive nipples - its the 20g protein the day prior (IMO)
I agree. I've been drinking about a gallon of 1% fat or skim for the past several months, all while taking thyroid hormone, and my gyno lump actually significantly decreased in size , which is odd, as it's been fairly steady even while taking raloxifene and, temporarily, letrozole.

Doesn’t all of this come down to liver function and detoxification? If your liver is sluggish, it may be offensive but if it’s working efficiently.... shouldn’t have estrogenic effects in the body? Or am I viewing things far to simplistically?
This is what I figured. Caffeine can help the liver and also tends to spare protein, so coffee consumption may be able to compensate for a slight protein insufficiency. This might be part of the reason that we see benefits to both longevity and the healthspan of coffee-drinkers.
Travis touched on this awhile ago.

The Travis Corner



TL;DR:
This is an ad-hominem attack, but unlike Dr. Peat, Travis seems a bit short-tempered and critical of others. I'm not sure if it's because he's young or whatever, but he eats a mostly vegan diet. Anyway, I wouldn't bring this up if diet didn't directly influence one's mental state.
 
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RisingSun

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Dairy is the worst gyno fuel on the planet, way worse than soy or xenoestrogens or whatever else people worry about. And the fattier it is, the worse it's gonna be.

Take a good look at Aajonus Vonderplanitz and tell me how estrogenic he looks.

He was on 2 quarts of raw milk a day on average for most his life
 

CLASH

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@RisingSun
Source of dairy and individual tolerance matters. Animals milked not during thier pregnancy have way less hormones. A2 animals have way less opiogenic effects. A raw, properly produced grass fed goat dairy will most likely be way different in a person who tolerates dairy well than an industrial cow dairy in someone who does not.
 

Cirion

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High fernstrom ratio. Will probably never drink milk again personally.
 
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