Simple Copper Complexes Are A Powerful Alternative To Antibiotics

[Amazoniac]

- Effect of Dietary Copper on Intestinal Microbiota and Antimicrobial Resistance Profiles of Escherichia coli in Weaned Piglets

1x, 5x, 15x, 35x the usual intake (food consumption was similar). The extremes are what they call'd Control and High Cu groups throughout the publication.​

I would be mindful with chronic high doses (something that wasn't encouraged by the Bulgarian supercentenarian), it should be risky for various reasons.

- Critical Review of Exposure and Effects: Implications for Setting Regulatory Health Criteria for Ingested Copper

"Ingested Cu(II) is readily reduced to Cu(I) by metalloreductase activity at the apical membrane of the gastrointestinal enterocytes (Ohgami et al. 2006; Ellingsen et al. 2015). Changes in absorption rate depending on the cellular copper status are likely related to the activity/efficiency of this enzyme and transporters like Ctr1. Higher copper exposure results in internalization of Ctr1 within the enterocytes, thereby reducing transport (Lonnerdal 2008; Van den Berghe and Klomp 2009). Ctr1 on the basement membrane side of the enterocyte can also transport copper into the enterocyte from the blood. Normal shedding of enterocytes (4-day average lifespan) into the gastrointestinal tract results in another source of elimination for the regulation of copper. Copper delivered to portal circulation is bound to histidine or serum proteins such as Diokine2-macroglobulin and albumin (Van den Berghe and Klomp 2009)."​

 

[Amazoniac]

- Does Copper Metal React with Acetic Acid?

"While most [textbooks] state that copper reacts with concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids, copper is usually described as unable to displace hydrogen from acidic solutions or unreactive with nonoxidizing acids (2–4). While it might be inferred from this that copper does not react with acetic acid, other publications such as The Merck Index states that 'copper is attacked by acetic acid' (5)."

"A review of the literature indicates that oxygen does play an important role in the reaction between copper and acetic acid. The mechanism that has been proposed involves the formation of a free radical and an electrochemical corrosion process (1). While mechanistic details are not appropriate for introductory students, suffice it to say that the mechanism does involve formation of a strong oxidizer, peroxoacetic acid (CH3COOOH), from dissolved oxygen, as well as the production of a copper oxide and a copper ion. It is highly likely that a copper oxide is responsible for the tarnish on the surface of the copper metal, while the production of copper(II) ion accounts for the blue color change in test tubes #1 and #2."​

- Copper(II) acetate - Wikipedia

"Anhydrous Cu(OAc)2 is a dark green crystalline solid, whereas Cu2(OAc)4(H2O)2 is more bluish-green."​

Copper is responsible for 35% of copper acetate salt weight, the acetates are then 65%. For the ratio, we can divide both values by one or the other, resulting in Cu 0.54:1 Ac or Cu 1:1.86 Ac.

1 tablespoon of vinegar is about 15 ml or g.

15 g vinegar * 6% acetic acid = 0.9 g of acetic acid​

The availability of acetate is going to limit how much of the salt can be formed, therefore:

0.9 g acetic acid * 0.54 = 0.48 g copper​

For simplification, it may yield at most half of the amout of acetate. But it doesn't seem realistic, it's too much copper; the reaction must be incomplete (does it fizzes with the addition of carbonates?) or other weaker species are formed.

According to this publication, the absorption of oxidized copper in excess as oxide would be poor, but reduced copper oxide (check out second-last link) is not:
- Cupric Oxide Should Not Be Used As a Copper Supplement for Either Animals or Humans


- Amino acid - Wikipedia

- Investigation of Copper(II) amino acid complexes | Department of Chemistry, UWI (aminoacetic acid)

- Introduction to Practical Biochemistry | Eötvös Loránd University

Spoiler

But for acetic acid it's simpler because it lacks the anime group:

Spoiler

Copper oxide not being water-soluble delays the process of alkalinization of the solution (the pH of vinegar is about 3) and the charging of acetate to pair with copper.


- A Novel Method of Etching Copper Oxide Using Acetic Acid

"Copper forms a thin oxide upon exposure to air or any oxygen containing ambient. To obtain a thin copper oxide in these experiments, the copper films were exposed to cleanroom air immediately after deposition to allow a native copper oxide surface to form."

"Since water (with dissolved oxygen) plays a critical role in establishing the presence and type of oxide on a copper surface, it is important to determine both the effect of dissolved oxygen and the concentration of water that can be tolerated in the acetic acid used for surface treatment."

"[..]dilution of acetic acid with DI [deiodized] water up to 4% by volume did not hinder the oxide removal. At these lower concentrations (<4% vol), the resulting copper XPS [spectroscopy] spectra were identical to those obtained by treatment with glacial acetic acid."​

- Speciation Behavior of Copper(II) Acetate in Simple Organic Solvents – Revealing the Effect of Trace Water

 

[Jam]

-"A review of the literature indicates that oxygen does play an important role in the reaction between copper and acetic acid. The mechanism that has been proposed involves the formation of a free radical and an electrochemical corrosion process (1). While mechanistic details are not appropriate for introductory students, suffice it to say that the mechanism does involve formation of a strong oxidizer, peroxoacetic acid (CH3COOOH), from dissolved oxygen, as well as the production of a copper oxide and a copper ion. It is highly likely that a copper oxide is responsible for the tarnish on the surface of the copper metal, while the production of copper(II) ion accounts for the blue color change in test tubes #1 and #2."

Right... this is why the production of copper acetate from copper + acetic acid can be catalyzed with H2O2.

 

[Amazoniac]

Right... this is why the production of copper acetate from copper + acetic acid can be catalyzed with H2O2.

It's dispensable.

--
- List of copper salts - Wikipedia

 

[Amazoniac]

- Copper(II): An ancient remedy for gut pathogen control in poultry | Rosemary A. Marusak

​

 

[Amazoniac]

- Pathogenic adaptations to host-derived antibacterial copper

Spoiler

"Recent evidence suggests a non-Fenton chemistry copper toxicity mechanism in which the reduced Cu+ ion is instrumental. Multiple investigators note that copper toxicity to bacteria is sustained or even enhanced in anoxic conditions (Beswick et al., 1976; Outten et al., 2001; Macomber and Imlay, 2009) where peroxide formation is minimal. Increased copper toxicity under anoxic conditions may reflect higher Cu+ prevalence. E. coli EPR spectroscopy indicates that considerable Cu2+ is converted to non-paramagnetic Cu+ under anoxic conditions (Beswick et al., 1976). Macomber et al. show that intracellular copper in overloaded E. coli is in the reduced Cu+ valence, likely due to cytosolic reduction and its ability to enter bacteria by traversing bacterial membranes (Macomber et al., 2007). Cu+ toxicity in the E. coli cytosol can be explained by its intense thiophilicity, which is sufficient to competitively disrupt key cytoplasmic iron-sulfur enzymes both in vitro and in vivo (Macomber and Imlay, 2009). Indeed, other “soft” thiophilic metal ions that do not act as Fenton reagents have been found to exert comparable toxicity (Jozefczak et al., 2012; Xu and Imlay, 2012). Together, these data provide compelling evidence linking copper toxicity to iron displacement from solvent-exposed dehydratase iron-sulfur clusters, resulting in metabolic disruption and branched chain amino acid auxotrophy."

"Although incompletely understood, there are indications that a coordinated physiologic response may increase both systemic and local copper availability during infections. Compared to normal controls, copper levels increase two- to ten-fold in the serum, livers and spleens of animals infected with a range of pathogens, including viruses, bacteria, and trypanosomes (Tufft et al., 1988; Crocker et al., 1992; Matousek De Abel De La Cruz et al., 1993; Ilback et al., 2003). Increased circulating copper may be selectively imported into infected sites, as indicated by two- to five-fold increase in copper-carrier proteins (Natesha et al., 1992; Chiarla et al., 2008). X-ray microprobe analyses indicate that copper's absolute atomic concentration in area density increases a hundred-fold to several hundred micromolar within granulomatous lesions of lungs infected with Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and high copper concentrations are selectively redistributed to the exudates of wounds and burns (Beveridge et al., 1985; Jones et al., 2001; Voruganti et al., 2005; Wagner et al., 2005). Whether this accumulation reflects uptake by myeloid cells alone or includes a tissue-wide response remains unclear."

"Copper's direct and indirect toxicity can alter enzyme specificity, disrupt cellular functions, and damage nucleic acid structure. Changes in copper concentrations during infection suggest that the host harnesses the metal's toxic properties to combat microbial growth. In response, pathogenic bacteria have evolved a series of protein- and small-molecule based defenses against copper toxicity."

"The classic intracellular pathogen M. tuberculosis upregulates genes encoding copper efflux-associated P1B-type ATPases during macrophage infection (Ward et al., 2008; Rowland and Niederweis, 2012). Urinary E. coli isolates collected from patients with urinary tract infections (UTIs) exhibit higher growth than concomitant rectal isolates in a medium containing an inhibitory concentration of copper (Chaturvedi et al., 2012). Copper resistance genes are often observed in virulence-associated mobile genetic elements carried by E. coli as well as Legionella pneumophila, Klebsiella pneumoniae, and methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (Sandegren et al., 2012; Shoeb et al., 2012; Gomez-Sanz et al., 2013; Trigui et al., 2013). E. coli and M. tuberculosis strains with engineered deficiencies in copper resistance genes exhibit impaired intracellular survival in phagocytic cells (White et al., 2009; Wolschendorf et al., 2011; Chaturvedi et al., 2013). To date, these observations suggest that resistance to copper-mediated killing among pathogens may be a virulence-associated property driven by host innate immunity."

"Both Cu+ and Cu2+ can permeate the outer membrane of E. coli and enter the periplasm, but only Cu+ is able to cross the inner membrane and reaches the cytoplasm by a currently unknown mechanism. While no copper uptake genes have yet been identified in E. coli, the outer-membrane protein ComC (under transcriptional control of the TetR-like regulator ComR) may reduce the outer membrane's copper permeability (Mermod et al., 2012). It is speculated that cytoplasmic Cu+ is largely complexed by millimolar quantities of thiols such as glutathione. Interestingly, glutathione biosynthesis gene deletion has little effect on microbial copper response, indicating that its role in detoxifying copper in bacterial cells may either be limited or redundant (Helbig et al., 2008). In this regard, qualitative and quantitative analyses of cytosolic copper binding sites in bacteria would aid our understanding of copper toxicity."

"Cu+ is more toxic than Cu2+ when applied under anoxic conditions, as demonstrated by Macomber and Imlay (2009). Consistent with this observation, E. coli cultures treated with both Cu2+ and reductants such as ascorbate or catechols demonstrate lower viability than those treated with Cu2+ alone (Chaturvedi et al., 2012). To detoxify extracytoplasmic Cu+, E. coli use the CueR-regulated multi-copper oxidase CueO to oxidize toxic cuprous copper to its less toxic cupric form (Grass and Rensing, 2001; Roberts et al., 2002; Singh et al., 2004). E. coli and S. typhimurium mutants lacking CueO exhibit extreme copper sensitivity in oxic conditions."

 

[Amazoniac]

- Effect of vitamin B6 to relieve copper sulfate toxicity on some physiological and histological parameters of female rabbits

@LucH

 

[LucH]

@Amazoniac
Thanks for sharing (protection from B6). Interesting in case of inflammation (homocystein).

 

[Amazoniac]

I think it would be cool if our dear lion could offer ultrapure copper acetate so that members no longer have to dose it arbitrarily from dissolved objects. Is this something that interests anyone?

 

[yerrag]

Amazon product ASIN B07JLSWZNN

 

[Amazoniac]

Amazon product ASIN B07JLSWZNN

Sa palagay ko ang karamihan ng mga produktong ipinagbibili ng mga nagtitinda sa pamayanan na ito ay magagamit na sa ibang lugar (bitamina, dating bitamina, mineral, amino acid, asteroids, at iba pa). Bumibili ang mga tao sa kanila dahil sa isang nakahihigit na kalidad, dahil sa pagtitiwala, upang suportahan sila kung sakaling ang mga produkto ay magkatulad o ginhawa sa pagkuha ng iba't ibang mga lason mula sa isang tindahan.

 

[yerrag]

Sa palagay ko ang karamihan ng mga produktong ipinagbibili ng mga nagtitinda sa pamayanan na ito ay magagamit na sa ibang lugar (bitamina, dating bitamina, mineral, amino acid, asteroids, at iba pa). Bumibili ang mga tao sa kanila dahil sa isang nakahihigit na kalidad, dahil sa pagtitiwala, upang suportahan sila kung sakaling ang mga produkto ay magkatulad o ginhawa sa pagkuha ng iba't ibang mga lason mula sa isang tindahan.

Koperacetaat is goed. Zelfgemaakt koperacetaat is niet zo slecht gezien de zuiverheid van het koper uit commercieel koperdraad. Als dat het geval is, zou ik niet bang zijn om koperacetaat van elders te kopen. In plaats daarvan zou koper-aspirinaat een beter aanbod zijn, omdat het nergens anders verkrijgbaar is. Omdat vermoed wordt dat aspirine-allergieën worden veroorzaakt door de maagbekleding zonder koper, zou koper-aspirinaat de voordelen van aspirine kunnen bieden aan degenen die er allergisch voor zijn.

 

[Amazoniac]

Koperacetaat is goed. Zelfgemaakt koperacetaat is niet zo slecht gezien de zuiverheid van het koper uit commercieel koperdraad. Als dat het geval is, zou ik niet bang zijn om koperacetaat van elders te kopen. In plaats daarvan zou koper-aspirinaat een beter aanbod zijn, omdat het nergens anders verkrijgbaar is. Omdat vermoed wordt dat aspirine-allergieën worden veroorzaakt door de maagbekleding zonder koper, zou koper-aspirinaat de voordelen van aspirine kunnen bieden aan degenen die er allergisch voor zijn.

Ang pangangatuwiran sa aming kaso ay upang maiwasan ang di-makatwirang dosis.

 

[Jam]

Ragazzi, avete rotto le palle

 

[Philomath]

Are we in the Tower of Babel now? Why the multiple languages? Italian, Dutch, Philippino?? You're making me work to keep up!
Anyone find a supplier of Copper Asprinate?

 

[Amazoniac]

Are we in the Tower of Babel now? Why the multiple languages? Italian, Dutch, Philippino?? You're making me work to keep up!
Anyone find a supplier of Copper Asprinate?

We want you to be an epiglote through practice.

I'm aware of the experiments demonstrating the relative safety in using these salts, but there's still a dose mismatch and I find it concerning that we have to decide between getting too much copper or too little of the ligand to make a difference. Their joining has to lead to synergism to allow leaning in favor of sane doses of copper while remaining effective.

 

[Amazoniac]

- Nephroprotective action of taurine and garlic extract against copper sulphate induced renal toxicity in Clarias gariepinus ?

 

[yerrag]

Update on my experience with two copper complexes-

Copper acetate - worked on a gut buildup of gases that gave me discomfort and pain. I wasn't able to fart or defecate. I used 5 mg of copper acetate, together with cascara sagrada and probiotics. Overnight the pain went away and i was able to fart and defecate again. I think copper acetate was the real solution, as I walked back what I did before I had the gut issue and it turns out I had used a spice rub instead of a vinegar-based marinade to make pork chop. And since I just like my pork chop to be juicy, I don't like it overcooked and tough. In the past I had gotten away with straddling the line between overcooked and undercooked, risking the danger of trichinosis from undercooked pork - with the use of vinegar in the marinade. When I used the spice rub, the vinegar wasn't there, and likely I got a case of trichinosis. The copper acetate did its job as an antibiotic particularly suited for a budding trichinosis infection in my gut.

Copper aspirinate - this was made from the copper acetate and aspirin as its base. Yesterday, I used it to lower blood pressure and it seemed to be doing a better job than the copper acetate, which I tried in both oral and topical form at 30mg/day in 3 doses. The topical form had 40% dmso in it. Not only did the copper aspirinate quickly take effect with lowering my blood pressure, but it also quickly made joint pains on my right ankle and knee disappear. I suppose the anti-inflammatory action of aspirin showed its hand, but I believe that as far as blood pressure being lowered is concerned, there was some potent anti-bacterial action involved. Perhaps the aspirin potentiated the action of copper on bacteria, and eased the load on my neutrophils' phagocytotic activity. I've recently learned that neutrophils also secrete albumin on the last stage of its antipathogenic activity, and my guess is that the source of albumin is the serum. Albumin is an antioxidant, and the neutrophils probably use albumin each time it acts on pathogens. Given that my wbc and neutrophils are high in my CBC, I would expect a lot of albumin to be consumed and this robs my blood of albumin to keep my blood volume up. If copper aspirinate can ease the load on my neutrophils as an antibiotic, it would allow less albumin to be used up and for my blood volume to increase. The effect would be for my blood pressure to go down, as there is less of a need then for blood pressure to be increased to compensate for lower blood volume, in order to circulate blood and nutrients to the body's tissues (as well as to cart off wastes from tissues).

There are still many copper complexes I've read about. However, they're not the low-hanging fruit like copper acetate and copper aspirinate. I would need a more sophisticated home lab to make them.

 

[Sam321]

oh, true enough.

but I predict very inconsistent concentration results between different people, using different vinegars, and pennies with different degrees (and composition) of surface coatings (dirt, corrosions, et al).

oh, and BEWARE NEW PENNIES. They are NOT all copper like the old ones.

lol. this. all national currencies are made of ***t metal now.
prob use an v old penny or stick with the copper wire.

 

[Amazoniac]

It's probably a good idea to be careful with megadosing in case there are precancerous lesions.
- Inflammation mobilizes copper metabolism to promote colon tumorigenesis via an IL-17-STEAP4-XIAP axis