Side Effects From Zinc, Antagonism Of Copper From It

[Ben]

Wikipedia says side effects of zinc toxicity are nausea, vomiting, pain, cramps and diarrhea. I personally feel a background of nausea after taking zinc, and I once vomited when I took too much at once. Now I feel nauseous about taking zinc in the first place. I got headaches and lethargy even when I took a small amount of zinc for the first time after not taking it for a long time.

I normally never get headaches. I get tension in the middle of my forehead daily, but I rarely get what's known as a "headache". However, when I took zinc, it hurt even until the next day. Zinc seemed to no longer cause headaches when I took it for a few days (from what I remember, I wasn't willing to keep taking zinc recently until I got to the bottom of why it so reliably induces headaches), so I wonder if the body corrects the headache somehow or if it's due to too high a dosage at once.

I once made the mistake of combining black pepper extract, which increases potency of supplements, with zinc. The result was grueling lethargy, which would of rendered me dysfunctional if I had not realized higher zinc absorption caused it. It still gives me lethargy at a single dose. I once noticed that combining zinc with copper would prevent the lethargy, so this leads me to believe that it causes anemia by reducing copper, which has influence on respiration regardless of blood cell count. But I don't know where to get pure food-grade copper anyway. It didn't correct the headaches from zinc as long as they lasted.

Indeed, wikipedia says "A decrease in copper levels and hematological changes have been reported; however, those changes were completely reversed with the cessation of zinc intake.". People almost anemic could find out if zinc worsens their anemia by assessing facial complexion, and colors of the fingernails and under the eyelids. There was some clinical case of long-term zinc overdose when someone was taking it to treat acne, and they didn't know it was the zinc until they saw a doctor.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I notice six to twelve oysters make me very cold, but they are full of heavy metals so I don't know.

 

[jyb]

I also have nausea from zinc supplement, but I think its just due to gut irritation. I don't get that from oysters.

 

[SaltGirl]

I used to supplement a lot with zinc(was into mercury detox protocols and whatnot), and it made me worse. Numbing of toes, bulging veins, and thinner skin. Nowadays I try to stay away from most zinc if I can, unless it is found in food.

 

[narouz]

I asked Peat about my very high ferritin levels a while back.
He noted that the zinc I was taking could also cause ferritin to be high.
He included a PubMed study.

 

[charlie]

Well shoot. It really seems zinc supplementation is risky.

 

[SaltGirl]

Well shoot. It really seems zinc supplementation is risky.

Considering that Ray Peat has said hypothyroid people are copper deficient, supplementation of zinc might increase the problem.

I remember reading several case studies a year back where doctors treated individuals with copper deficiency who were using zinc supplements or even denture adhesive containing zinc.

Here is at least one:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21660014

If denture fixture can cause this(this was a person around 58 so more likely to have less copper in liver I guess) one only wonders how this can worsen with high level supplements.

 

[jyb]

Yes copper deficiency due to zinc supps is a common side effect. That said, if you also take copper in the right ratio maybe its not a problem. And if you eat nutrient rich foods at a different time than the supplement, this might reduce the problem too - keep in mind that the average person eats nutrient poor foods and not frequently, so that its easy to see why zinc taken with the main meal could be a problem. That said, I'm still unsure about supplementing zinc for all those reasons and the nausea/gut irritation effect.

 

[narouz]

Zinc supps causing copper deficiency is probably one thing.
Zinc supps causing high ferritin is probably another.
Peat included a PubMed study when he replied.
I have that somewhere and will try to post it.

Just to note: when I had that very high ferritin test result,
the zinc supp I was taking included copper.

Peat also reminded me that the oysters I was numerously consuming
also contain a lot of iron.

 

[Curt :-)]

When I was in the Poliquin camp I was taking absurd amounts of zinc (orotate and aspartate chelates) and I never had any issue with it.
I asked Poliquin himself about the copper thing, he said he's had hundreds of athletes taking these high amounts of zinc and not 1 of them had ever tested low in copper (of course, "low" is likely widely variable, depending on who you ask, and even what lab is doing the blood work).
He also said that a nauseous feeling after taking zinc was indicative of toxicity as zinc increases detoxification (of heavy metals I think).
I'm not saying he's right, but he does have a lot first hand experience with supplementation and blood work.

 

[SaltGirl]

The problem with copper is that blood levels stay normal even when it is missing elsewhere(they can even be extremely high in inflammation). This means that blood tests are pretty much unreliable for many cases.

"While higher dietary intake of copper appears healthy, higher serum copper levels are associated with increased total mortality.[17] The reason seems to be that inflammation causes high blood copper levels.[18,19]"

"It has also been shown, that dietary copper restriction doesn't seem to decrease serum copper during the first months.[21] Because of this, serum levels of copper doesn't seem to be a very useful marker of copper status in most cases. Tissue levels seem more useful. In fatty liver patients, the liver has 40% less copper than the healthy subjects.[11] However, Alzheimer patients seem to also have lower serum level of copper.[22]"

from:
http://valtsus.blogspot.fi/2014/01/copp ... rient.html

Of course, as Ray Peat has mentioned, things have to be taken in context so there are probably other factors that we are not accounting for. Factors that could be the reason why Poliquin hasn't seen any problems with zinc supplementation.

 

[jyb]

He also said that a nauseous feeling after taking zinc was indicative of toxicity as zinc increases detoxification (of heavy metals I think).
I'm not saying he's right, but he does have a lot first hand experience with supplementation and blood work.

The nausea appears a few minutes after ingestion, so I think its likely to be just irritation. Irritation means release of serotonin, and large serotonin is known to cause nausea.

 

[Curt :-)]

Thats interesting about copper staying normal in the blood but not elsewhere.
FTR, I dont think he is correct in promoting these massive levels of supplementation, if nothing else, its extremely unnatural. And like you said, there's no doubt other factors, context, etc.

 

[narouz]

For those of us unversed in Poliquin
from Wiki:

Biography
Poliquin is a resident of Ottawa, Ontario, and has trained numerous Olympic athletes. He was born on March 5th 1961 in Ottawa, Canada. Until the age of 12 he lived in his birth country, then he moved to the United States with his parents. As a talented soccer player he was in the Irish under-17 squad eight times. A knee injury prevented him from becoming a professional, so he dedicated his life to weight training. He gave his strength-training advice in monthly articles to the general public through the online and print versions of Testosterone Magazine[1] (now known as T-Nation).[original research?] Poliquin has published several books, many of which have been translated into 12 different languages, including English, Swedish, German, French, Italian, Dutch and Japanese. As a columnist, he has written over 600 articles[2] in numerous publications. His first book The Poliquin Principles formatted a basic summary of his training methods and provided insight into the training regimens of some of the world's top athletes. Poliquin, who is fluent in English, French and German, also promoted and helped popularize German volume training.

Poliquin founded and opened the Poliquin Strength Institute in East Greenwich, Rhode Island, where he trains and certifies coaches in the Poliquin International Certification Program (PICP). As part of his certification program he teaches a body hormone profiling method, which he invented, called BioSignature Modulation.[2]

 

[Lokzo]

What if your Ceruloplasmin levels are low, how can one increase it?