Should I Try Taking Thyroid Again? Diet Advice Please?

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I gained a good 25 pounds on Peat diet, and have been very low fat since about the past month to try to deplete PUFAs somewhat.

But before that, when I was eating ad libitum, I gained the weight and tried T4 and T3 and Tyromax, but never got my temps up and never felt any real effects from it except bad ones.

When I once too too much Tyromax I got very cold and had a really bad day.

But other than that, T3 makes my HR rise a bit, but my temps are still quite cold.

I don't think I am truly low thyroid but who knows. My TSH lab back in December before Peat was around 2 or so. Everything else was spot on.

But I wake up at 95.5F and don't feel great. Maybe it's the very low fat diet.

If I work in front of the red lights, I might get my temp up to 97.5 by afternoon.

And I'm not really losing much/any weight, or if so, very slowly. I am eating grains though.

I don't seem to be happy without some starch, but I could do it if I had do.

Questions:

1. Should I try thyroid again?
2. What adjustments can you suggest I consider diet wise?
 

PakPik

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Hi @ecstatichamster
From personal experience and from reading that of other people, very low fat diet is quite difficult in the beginning, you feel like you are crashing the first few months/weeks. For example, in my first 2-3 months of very low fat got my temps to an even worse place, my hot flashes increased, worsened malaise, etc. But I stuck with it and low starch, and I had an array of supplements and measures to support make that time easier. I had been suffering from a chronic, as in **daily** headache (it fluctuated between a 8 out of 10 pain to a 10 out of 10 pain), skull pain, seizures, and many more issues. But I am so grateful that now I can go headache free for weeks on a row, no more seizures and I can finally sleep. And my temps feel so good, all day long, even if I miss a meal I won't get cold or anything, I feel energy and warmth that I had never felt before. Getting my troubled and painful gut (that's a whole new career ;) ) in order plus the low fat approach has been key for my recovery.

So, maybe you are going through the rough patch when beginning low fat? And maybe your gut isn't great and so would be wise to also focus on soothing it, check if any of your starch foods if doing harm and check if the Ph:Ca ratio is good?

By the way, I've never supplemented thyroid, but I'd think that maybe thyroid would be good to stop if it's not doing noticeable good and perhaps even generating a stressful response. That's just what I'd do.
 
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ecstatichamster
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Hi @ecstatichamster
From personal experience and from reading that of other people, very low fat diet is quite difficult in the beginning, you feel like you are crashing the first few months/weeks. For example, in my first 2-3 months of very low fat got my temps to an even worse place, my hot flashes increased, worsened malaise, etc. But I stuck with it and low starch, and I had an array of supplements and measures to support make that time easier. I had been suffering from a chronic, as in **daily** headache (it fluctuated between a 8 out of 10 pain to a 10 out of 10 pain), skull pain, seizures, and many more issues. But I am so grateful that now I can go headache free for weeks on a row, no more seizures and I can finally sleep. And my temps feel so good, all day long, even if I miss a meal I won't get cold or anything, I feel energy and warmth that I had never felt before. Getting my troubled and painful gut (that's a whole new career ;) ) in order plus the low fat approach has been key for my recovery.

So, maybe you are going through the rough patch when beginning low fat? And maybe your gut isn't great and so would be wise to also focus on soothing it, check if any of your starch foods if doing harm and check if the Ph:Ca ratio is good?

By the way, I've never supplemented thyroid, but I'd think that maybe thyroid would be good to stop if it's not doing noticeable good and perhaps even generating a stressful response. That's just what I'd do.

WOW! Thank you SO MUCH. This is such a meaningful post for me at this time, I can't thank you enough.

I think this IS a rough patch. And my gut isn't great. Maybe the starch that I'm eating is bad. Maybe I should rely just upon some rice and potatoes. Skip all the wheat and corn. Maybe...

I am increasing my eggshell supps again, I had not taken them for a few days. Maybe there is something to that...
 

tara

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I had been suffering from a chronic, as in **daily** headache (it fluctuated between a 8 out of 10 pain to a 10 out of 10 pain), skull pain, seizures, and many more issues. But I am so grateful that now I can go headache free for weeks on a row, no more seizures and I can finally sleep. And my temps feel so good, all day long, even if I miss a meal I won't get cold or anything, I feel energy and warmth that I had never felt before. Getting my troubled and painful gut (that's a whole new career ;) ) in order plus the low fat approach has been key for my recovery.
That's a very encouraging story. Congratulations. :)
 

PakPik

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Hi @ecstatichamster ,
thank you for your kind words, I'm glad my message helped a bit :)

I spent a couple of years where I couldn't not handle a single gram of starch. My health used to be very bad, as in a bed bound person with chronic illnesses and pains, so I would believe that how healthful/damaging starch is correlates with the state of a person's physiology -specially the G.I tract-. I say that because nowadays I crave starch and I can have it and it does me good, whereas it used to be poisonous to me before! I still base my carbs on simple sugars, but I'm definitely benefiting from my consumption of starches, yummy! -mostly rice and yams, rarely corn, and I'd love to try wheat again in the future :)-.

Bottom line, if for someone starch contributes to the inflammatory state, then better do something about it (whether limit starch, or reverse inflammatory state, or both). If it doesn't, then I think they are perfectly healthful in the context of a nutritionally balanced diet. I also accompany my starch meal with simple sugars; fructose allows to process glucose better.

A piece of complex carb -or any item for that matter- that doesn't make the gut cells happy and propels them to turn off oxidative metabolism, in other words, that will stimulate the nitric oxide-lactic acid cycle, will just exacerbate gut leakiness and with it comes generalized vascular leakiness. This will harm the blood-brain barrier, and many antigens and inflammatory mediators will be able to make their way to the brain, and boom, you get immune/inflammatory response in the brain, which can cause a headache.

Also, if you have some kind of unresolved or hidden sinus infection it can contribute to headaches.
 

PakPik

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Thank you @tara :) :) And thanks to this forum and its freely available information. I'm very grateful for the insights you share :cat:
 
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ecstatichamster
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Been taking T4 and T3 for about a week. I think it's helping me feel less pain in my feet, although it's too soon to tell. My temps aren't any higher but that's okay. Still sticking to ultra low fat. I am feeling a bit better and I think it's the thyroid
 
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tca300

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@ecstatichamster My feet, hands, nose and oral temp didn't come up until I was eating enough protein. Thyroid won't even work if your not eating enough protein ( according to Ray, and from personal experience. ) I remember looking through a vegan blog where everyone was sharing their temps, and even though they were all eating 500+ grams of carbohydrates per day they all had temps between 95 and 96.5 degrees fahrenheit.
 

whodathunkit

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From personal experience and from reading that of other people, very low fat diet is quite difficult in the beginning, you feel like you are crashing the first few months/weeks.
Yep, this is me. I have to pulse very low fat with normal eating because I can't take VLF for too long a stretch, but you do get acclimated to lower fat and actually begin to like it. Very low fat is tough, but ultimately your fat craving comes down across the board, even when you can eat normally. Each bout of very low fat has gotten a bit easier.

@PakPik: how crucial do you think progesterone and getting your hormones in order was to raising your temps? The other day after your kind advice about the Progest-E I took a large dose and immediately got warmer than I had been all day. I've been doing high-dose progesterone ever since and it seems to be helping my temps somewhat.

@ecstatichamster, how do you take your temps? Mine are sometimes two degrees cooler if I use a cold digital thermometer and do the short reading as per the device instructions. But if I let it sit in my mouth for a couple of minutes before I turn it on, I'm normal even first thing in the a.m. I did some reading and turns out that's the most accurate way to do it wiht these new-fangled thermometers. Probably you already know that but mentioning in case you don't.
 

tara

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Mine are sometimes two degrees cooler if I use a cold digital thermometer and do the short reading as per the device instructions.
I have to retest multiple times to get stable readings from my digital - sometimes more than 5mins.
 

lvysaur

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I don't seem to be happy without some starch, but I could do it if I had do.

Questions:

1. Should I try thyroid again?
2. What adjustments can you suggest I consider diet wise?

Never tried thyroid, but I was ridiculously warm and skinny when I ate almost entirely sugar, fruit, milk, and coffee.
 
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Been taking T4 and T3 for about a week. I think it's helping me feel less pain in my feet, although it's too soon to tell. My temps aren't any higher but that's okay. Still sticking to ultra low fat. I am feeling a bit better and I think it's the thyroid
Have you ever tried a good ole haidut liver stress test with caffeine pills?
 
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ecstatichamster
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Have you ever tried a good ole haidut liver stress test with caffeine pills?

Yes, I think I've defatted my liver pretty well. I can drink large amounts of espresso with no problem. Done the high caffeine and vitamin K2 and I'm lots better that way. I no longer get sugar cravings like I did, and I don't worry if I can't eat for awhile. I think my liver is very good now.
 
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Yes, I think I've defatted my liver pretty well. I can drink large amounts of espresso with no problem. Done the high caffeine and vitamin K2 and I'm lots better that way. I no longer get sugar cravings like I did, and I don't worry if I can't eat for awhile. I think my liver is very good now.
Ok, I was wondering because that could be a big reason people don't respond well to thyroid. I would second the low fat recommendation, once your fat stores are low, your body has no choice but to become a carb burning machine, regardless of your previous imprinting. Personally I can only make low fat work with lots of fiber from whole fruit, carrots and lettuce. Also I think some egg whites are great for extra protein, they are easy, tasty, non fat, high in vit b2, and low in phosphorus... for me those pros beat the cons of extra excitatory aminos.
 
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Have you ever tried a good ole haidut liver stress test with caffeine pills?

what is that?

@ecstatichamster have you done any bloodwork? i mean, maybe your vitamin D is low or your prolactin is too high or your cholesterol is too low. these are real things you can look at and probably can give you a hint. your probably not eating enough sugar to be honest. also, food allergens. i've gotten my temps up pretty nicely the past few days and you know what did it? it was me not taking vitamin A and vitamin K internally anymore. i think I was over doing it and having an allergic reaction or something to them. added vitamins in stuff is baaad. like added vitamins in milk.. nasty. roddy i think recommends organic valencia oranges for sugar.. squeeze them yourself.. i think you would get your temp up with it.

what about coconut oil for fat? i think you would need fat in your diet... that's probably it. how is eating a no fat diet doing pufa depletion exactly? if you are using your own fat reserves to "Burn", technically you are increasing your cortisol. i don't think that's how it works though. i'm not sure to be honest, but i guess i would need to hear your thought process. my thought was there's no way to decrease pufa in your body, just its better for it to be replaced over time by good stuff.
 
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ecstatichamster
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what is that?

@ecstatichamster have you done any bloodwork? i mean, maybe your vitamin D is low or your prolactin is too high or your cholesterol is too low. these are real things you can look at and probably can give you a hint. your probably not eating enough sugar to be honest. also, food allergens. i've gotten my temps up pretty nicely the past few days and you know what did it? it was me not taking vitamin A and vitamin K internally anymore. i think I was over doing it and having an allergic reaction or something to them. added vitamins in stuff is baaad. like added vitamins in milk.. nasty. roddy i think recommends organic valencia oranges for sugar.. squeeze them yourself.. i think you would get your temp up with it.

what about coconut oil for fat? i think you would need fat in your diet... that's probably it. how is eating a no fat diet doing pufa depletion exactly? if you are using your own fat reserves to "Burn", technically you are increasing your cortisol. i don't think that's how it works though. i'm not sure to be honest, but i guess i would need to hear your thought process. my thought was there's no way to decrease pufa in your body, just its better for it to be replaced over time by good stuff.

I did bloodwork about 5 months ago. D was about 80, so that's pretty good. Estrone was high. Prolactin might have been a bit high. Cholesterol was 280, pretty solid.

That's interesting that your quitting K and A raised your temps. And using orange juice not sugar?

I tried coconut fat and got fat. I gained 20 pounds eating coconut fat.

No fat depletes all fats, hopefully including PUFAs. Of course, it may be that I've got too much de novo lipogenesis going on. There is a study that says no fat and high carbs leads to enhancced creation of fat from the high carbs. MAybe that's happening to me.

When I started thyroid about 5 months ago, I had fatty liver. Now I don't think I have fatty liver anymore. My body feels very unresponsive but that may not be a bad thing. I'm continuing.
 

PakPik

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@PakPik: how crucial do you think progesterone and getting your hormones in order was to raising your temps? The other day after your kind advice about the Progest-E I took a large dose and immediately got warmer than I had been all day. I've been doing high-dose progesterone ever since and it seems to be helping my temps somewhat.

Well, progesterone definitely helped me, it was crucial for letting me survive very rough health situation. It in fact helps temperature because it increases the so called temperature set-point, helps thyroid secrete hormones, and stabilizes lots of cellular processes, I could definitely benefit from it and I'm very grateful for it! But in the long run if there are factors that continue to derange body systems, progesterone won't be nearly enough. I also am not sure about the safety of high doses long term.
 

marteagal

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@mayweatherking, with regard to Haidut's liver stress test, here is a compilation of relevant quotes from the original thread Caffeine reverses stress, insulin resistance, hypertension:
I think the overall message of the studies on caffeine is this - if one can't handle a decent dose of caffeine (200mg - 400mg), taken with food if necessary, without getting a stress response then glycogen stores are poor.

If taking 200mg caffeine with something sweet gives you a stress response then you need to work on your liver health. Keeping the intake of that 200mg caffeine for as little as 2 weeks should restore liver function considerably (unless there is actual damage like fibrosis, which caffeine can also reverse but in much higher doses).

For liver fibrosis it will probably have to be longer - maybe 8-10 weeks and much higher doses (studies used 1g+ daily).

How long can you go between meals without getting a stress response? This is another test of liver function.

If you get to 6 hours without getting jittery then you are more or less "optimal".

I posted a study long time ago showing that as little as 2mg/kg human dose taken for 2 weeks restored proper liver fat metabolism and got the liver lean again. Here is that study.
Caffeine stimulates hepatic lipid metabolism by the autophagy-lysosomal pathway in mice. - PubMed - NCBI

[H]uman studies show high doses of caffeine (300mg+) inhibit urea synthesis and thus increase ammonia. I would not combine the high caffeine with high protein.

For liver health I'd go with caffeine, which should allow you to eat more protein and achieve positive nitrogen balance with less protein per day.

I found that taking 600mg caffeine with a large protein meal (steak) gave me ammonia symptoms. It would depend on how fast you metabolize caffeine, which is a function of liver health. I guess if you take the caffeine a few hours away from meals (like the carrot salad Ray recommends) you should be fine. Maybe you can also cap caffeine doses at 400mg taken 3 times daily, which should reduce the ammonia response.

I posted some studies with animals showing a human equivalent dose of about 200mg daily reversed NAFLD in 2 weeks. So, yes, coffee is protective to the liver and especially so in people consuming high PUFA diet. Their consumption of coffee is not a coincidence, many organisms self-medicate through cravings for specific foods and drinks.
I think 200mg caffeine for 2 months should be able to get the liver lean again. However, there are other mechanisms at play in pathologies that this low-ish dose of caffeine may not address completely. Obesity, diabetes, and PUFA consumption strongly elevate inflammatory biomarkers and some of these "biomarkers" are actually causative of those pathologies thuis creating a vicious circle. A dose of 200mg caffeine daily can hardly affect things like NF-kB , TNF-a, prostaglandins, etc. This is why aspirin synergizes so well with caffeine - both raise metabolism and one is a potent anti-inflammatory as well. Btw, so is niacinamide.

I don't think niacinamide inhibits the liver from shedding its fat, on the contrary actually if you look at the study I posted on niacinamide and NAFLD. Peat said the same thing - in doses of 100mg a few times daily it should actually help with shedding liver fat. So, the combination of caffeine and moderate dose niacinamide should trigger leaning out of the liver even more strongly. It should also improve insulin sensitivity as the niacinamide will inhibit release of fat from adipose tissues, while caffeine will force the cells to oxidize glucose.

The animal studies showed that even after 7 days of daily caffeine intake of about 300mg the liver got lean. This should allow you to tolerate higher caffeine intake afterwards.
 

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