Should I Consider Myself Unhealthy If I Do Best Without Grains Or Dairy?

[Peatogenic]

Oops, meant that the ecstasy was in eating the bread..

 

[sunraiser]

Perhaps the wheat is the only source of folate or selenium in your diet and it's particularly satisfying?

@Rafael what an interesting experience. Are you sure you weren't just starving for easy digest energy as a kid.

Still, I'm completely mind blown by both your experiences. The idea you can get a drug like high off a slice of bread puts you in a group many would consider extremely fortunate :)

In the past I could've been addicted to anything (luckily computer games got in the way!) and bread doesn't have that impact whatsoever. Pleasurable, yes, drug like, no.

Which kind of drug would you compare the effects to? Actual opiates? Or more like stimulant or amphetamine type thing?

 

[Peatogenic]

How does it feel different?

Less "relaxed", more acute focus, happier, feeling of something missing, eat less but can function on less calories. I also look very different. My eyes seem more alive.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Perhaps the wheat is the only source of folate or selenium in your diet and it's particularly satisfying?

@Rafael what an interesting experience. Are you sure you weren't just starving for easy digest energy as a kid.

Still, I'm completely mind blown by both your experiences. The idea you can get a drug like high off a slice of bread puts you in a group many would consider extremely fortunate :)

In the past I could've been addicted to anything (luckily computer games got in the way!) and bread doesn't have that impact whatsoever. Pleasurable, yes, drug like, no.

Which kind of drug would you compare the effects to? Actual opiates? Or more like stimulant or ampthamine type thing?

I definitely was relatively malnourished as a kid, but the wheat wasn't helping. I remember I would take so long to digest, to the point of me being in need of energy, but not being able to eat much food, since the wheat just wouldn't digest fast enough. And even in this situation, I would crave more wheat. But I never said it was like a drug( I haven't tried many drugs to make a good comparison), I just said it was addictive and pleasurable in a way other foods aren't.

 

[Peatogenic]

I am familiar with that not being able to stop, almost robotic pleasure seeking with wheat. But to balance it out, I've felt the same thing with rice, chips, candy, etc. Blood sugar related?

 

[Sativa]

Still, I'm completely mind blown by both your experiences. The idea you can get a drug like high off a slice of bread puts you in a group many would consider extremely fortunate

They are not really unique in their experiences. Gluten Opioid peptides are old news ... perhaps you simply have outdated information! Many foods have significant psychoactive effects (as explained in my previous post)
PS. I guess you did not bother to read my initial post on the first page of this thread.

For the benefit of everyone reading this:

Gluten can be degraded into several morphine-like substances, named gluten exorphins. These compounds have proven opioid effects and could mask the deleterious effects of gluten protein on gastrointestinal lining and function. Here we describe a putative mechanism, explaining how gluten could “mask” its own toxicity by exorphins that are produced through gluten protein digestion.

- The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease


It seems Gluten looks useful for increasing Prolactin (which lowers Dopamine = low motivation), activating the endotoxin TLR4 receptor (flu like symptoms? Haidut talks about this), slowing digestion, providing a pleasurable Opioid-high effect

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

I am familiar with that not being able to stop, almost robotic pleasure seeking with wheat. But to balance it out, I've felt the same thing with rice, chips, candy, etc. Blood sugar related?

May be. With chips I felt that too. I think that's because it combines starch with fat. That combination can lead to overeating, especially if the oil used is high in PUFA( which activates the endocannabinoid system). When I was using rice as my main carbohydrate, I used to get hungry quickly after eating, but it wasn't that I was craving rice. I actually find it very satisfying, but the thing is that boiled starch isn't calorie dense, so if your body doesn't get enough calories, you may feel like you think about food all the time. Maybe that's what you are refering to?Even rice with very little fat or no fat added? As for the candy, it may be the flavorings in it. Some of them are strangely delicious. I find a big dose of white sugar in my fruit juice gelatin, or in my juice very energising and satisfying, but for a good metabolism, a big dose of sugar on a low fat diet can be metabolized and burned very quickly, so it isn't, at least in my experience, that I'm addicted to sugar, it's more of a need for energy, so after ingesting it, I stop thinking about food for that moment.

 

[Sativa]

Btw - It's good to see others here with insight into the pharmacological implications of foods we eat; the PUFA endocannabinoid link is spot on! Also Estrogen results in elevated kynurenic acid which is a dissasociative hallucinogen! (it shares pharmacology with ketamine etc)

so if your body doesn't get enough calories, you may feel like you think about food all the time. Maybe that's what you are refering to?

Aside from the bio-physical aspects of satiation, one must also consider the less-tangible emotional component, which itself influences the bio-physical hormones/NT's etc - eg if we have had a stressful experience, or perhaps some repressed/suppressed emotional memories were triggered - then this might result in subconscious comfort eating.

If you combine the conscious pleasurable Opioid effects of a food, and a subconscious dynamic that is subdued by comfort eating, then this has potential to result in notable over-eating etc

 

[RisingSun]

In my opinion, grains: not so much; it is complicated, and milk: no, with few exceptions.

Grains will always have a endotoxin risk and serotonin risk so I wouldn't say someone is necessarily in bad health if they don't handle grains for that reason, but with milk, with few exceptions, I think it is usually the person and not the milk.

I was heavily lactose intolerant and would get rashes when I consumed dairy casien. After going fairy free Peat and cleaning my gut up, and cutting starches except white rice and well cooked boiled potatoes out, my gut began to improve. By that time I was well into Peating for a couple years and then decided to use more natural anti-biotics and more carrot salads and activated charcoal, and decided to cut out potatoes and rice and all starches in general. I started out with small amounts of raw goat milk yogurt and moved to raw goat milk. By the 3 yr into Peating I was having some raw A-2 cows milk and even began trying store bought organic skim milk again. I do notice a slight difference between A-1 and A2, but the real problem was my gut. I decided to cut out starches, go low on PUFA which improved my gut barrier, and use natural anti-biotics and carrots to maintain and clean my gut of bad bacteria. Some studies posted to this forum suggest certain gut bacteria interferes with milk digestion as well as thyroid hormone. So that and hearing Danny Roddy share his experience of handling diary better after cleaning his gut out inspired me to go down that road and it worked well for me. This is my experience and others here have similar experiences, but if there was anyone who would win an award for the most milk intolerant, it would probably be me. And if I was able to handle milk again, I am of the opinion others can too and that it is likely them and not the milk. If someone cannot handle milk, I'd tell the to give what I did a try (cut out starches and eat fruit/juice and honey/sugar for carbs, start eating carrot salads 1-2 per day, and after a month or a few months after getting more regulated on that, use activated charcoal in big servings 2-3x per week, and maybe some generation 1 Peat recommended anti-biotics, if you need something more potent, and keep PUFA low and have good nutrition to support gut barrier).

My diet is mostly skimmed raw milk and gelatin and fruit with some liver or the occasional oyster. May not be for everyone but I feel best on this and have no digestion issues whatsoever. I feel better than when I was in my teens and that says a lot. I am also very low PUFA, which I think is a big part of my success, but it is strict so I am not recommending people have to go as low on PUFA as I do, but a 'EFA deficiency' type of diet seems to be the only thing that has got my temp and pulse up and improved my thyroid and metabolism.

I think low thyroid, gut bacteria, and compromised gut barrier caused by stress hormones and PUFA are some of the main reasons why most cannot handle milk. But there are exceptions, and some are genetic, so I don't count that out either. Thats my 2 cents.

In your gut-cleaning protocole, I take it you have used medication on top of the natural methods, such as antibiotics.
Did you also take antifungals as Nystatin to take care of potential candida overgrowth?

 

[Runenight201]

Would the diet of reared animals affect the psychoactive property of their tissues (including eggs and dairy) upon consumption?

 

[sunraiser]

They are not really unique in their experiences. Gluten Opioid peptides are old news ... perhaps you simply have outdated information! Many foods have significant psychoactive effects (as explained in my previous post)
PS. I guess you did not bother to read my initial post on the first page of this thread.

For the benefit of everyone reading this:


- The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease


It seems Gluten looks useful for increasing Prolactin (which lowers Dopamine = low motivation), activating the endotoxin TLR4 receptor (flu like symptoms? Haidut talks about this), slowing digestion, providing a pleasurable Opioid-high effect

Their experiences are unique to me my friend. Noone I have met in my entire life has experienced this from bread.

I CAN relate to what peatogenic is talking about from highly refined low fibre starch and sugar sources, though. They're quickly converted to glucose and this can provide a somewhat stimulating effect.

You'll find the same from very very well boiled potatoes and white sugars.

It's not to do with gluten, though. Eating fibrous sourdough or wholegrain pasta will not prompt the same effect. I'd put money on it.

This effect does come at a cost though. You need minerals to metabolise carbs!

 

[Sativa]

Would the diet of reared animals affect the psychoactive property of their tissues (including eggs and dairy) upon consumption?

Psychoactive elements of animal comestible products that I am aware of include PUFA's, Casomorphin, possibly endogenous animal opioid/endocannabinoid and NT substances assuming they have not broken down.

Arginine is metabolised into Agmatine which has notable pharmacological properties - it interacts with Opioid, Imidazoline, Cannabinoid and NMDA (glutamate) systems.

Tryptophan has psychoactive effects due to interacting with the Serotonin receptors, and possibly indirectly via the MAO enzyme.

If fed wheat gluten, I think the gluten protein/peptides would not make it into animal tissues - eating the digestive tract tissues might be a different story.

Regarding minerals - note that Calcium itself has psychoactive properties, interacting with the NMDA (glutamate) and alpha 7 nicotinic system. It also stimulates the cannabinoid system. I used to make a custom cannabinoid mix - without THC - and it included Calcium.

Zinc is a potent dopaminergic - it reverses the Dopamine transporter similarly to Amphetamine!

Magnesium ofc has NMDA antagonist properties.

I reckon vitamins & minerals all have some downstream psychoactive effects - I know that certain act as precursors for neurotramsitters. during my experimental phase, I created a stack combining multiple precursors & co-factors for Dopamine.

 

[Cirion]

I was eating "perfectly" and doing gym for years. Moving country and working with light in my eyes on my feet all day gave drastic health changes. Eating nothing but oil covered chicken and chips and chickpeas and pasta and eggs!

I do tend to agree that environment has a bigger impact on health than diet, but for some of us, diet is the only variable we can currently tweak. I still don't think pounding down PUFA's is wise though.

I have been preaching the healing effects of sunlight for a while. But for many of us it is not possible to get as much as we need.

I really want to move my career, but it is hard because my work is fairly niche.

 

[lvysaur]

even when my belly was absolutely full of wheat, I was still craving it and no matter how much I ate, it was never enough, casein had a similar effect.

This is exactly the diametric opposite of what I feel with gluten and A1 casein.

Wheat is filling and satiating, as is A1 milk. Rice, potatoes, even with meat added, and A2 milk are all less satiating and allow me to eat a lot more. I have never found wheat to be addicting in any manner, it's actually one of the least addictive and most satiating foods on earth IMO, along with cheese. I never crave wheat the way I do potatoes or even rice.

Less "relaxed", more acute focus, happier, feeling of something missing, eat less but can function on less calories. I also look very different. My eyes seem more alive.

I agree with all of those except the less calories part. When I eat gluten I basically lose my meat cravings and I eat less in general. I agree with the eyes part, and it probably has to do with canthal tilt.

But my mental focus also seems to have more depth while on wheat. It's less acute and energetic, but I understand things at a deeper level and have more patience to go into them further.

 

[Sativa]

I have never found wheat to be addicting in any manner, it's actually one of the least addictive and most satiating foods on earth IMO

Just an aside - I feel that the differences in internal bio-chemistry (neurotransmitter/receptor system sensitivity & status, hormones, P450/MAO/etc enzyme expression etc) can at least partly account for the often contrasting range of responses that we can all have to various psychoactive substances.

Note that the feeling of satiation (and almost all sensatons regarding food etc) are underpinned by psychoactive chemical messengers! So it can be hard to distinguish whether something is having an effect or not - this would require one be extremely sensitive and lucid to ones internal psychoactive state...which requires effort! (I speak from direct experience. I can directly sense the psychoactive effects of common herbs & spices etc, achieved by custom brain receptor maintenance)

 

[Hairfedup]

Starches rule!

 

[sunraiser]

I do tend to agree that environment has a bigger impact on health than diet, but for some of us, diet is the only variable we can currently tweak. I still don't think pounding down PUFA's is wise though.

I have been preaching the healing effects of sunlight for a while. But for many of us it is not possible to get as much as we need.

I really want to move my career, but it is hard because my work is fairly niche.

I was lucky to have the chance, however please don't feel something so drastic is needed!

Light in your eyes as close to dawn as possible and then some during your lunch break should be a decent enough signal to let your body know where it's at.

I have made huge strides in UK winters like this too but it involved eating pretty normally (I enjoy and crave the texture of high fibre foods!).

I have experienced all three stages and I'd definitely say appropriate cortisol > high cortisol > low cortisol.

I strongly disagree with peat about attacking or hacking your cortisol levels as low as possible.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Btw - It's good to see others here with insight into the pharmacological implications of foods we eat; the PUFA endocannabinoid link is spot on! Also Estrogen results in elevated kynurenic acid which is a dissasociative hallucinogen! (it shares pharmacology with ketamine etc)



Aside from the bio-physical aspects of satiation, one must also consider the less-tangible emotional component, which itself influences the bio-physical hormones/NT's etc - eg if we have had a stressful experience, or perhaps some repressed/suppressed emotional memories were triggered - then this might result in subconscious comfort eating.

If you combine the conscious pleasurable Opioid effects of a food, and a subconscious dynamic that is subdued by comfort eating, then this has potential to result in notable over-eating etc

Ray said once that estrogen and a little cocaine produce similar highs, and cocaine is known for making people lose touch with reality during its effect, so that makes a lot sense.

I agree, some people overeat during stressful times( Peat would say that it's because the organism does what it feels will help lower stress) and exorphins won't help with that, quite the opposite. And probably overeating to the point of being unconfortably full is stressful as well, so would only add up to the stress load a person is carrying.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

This is exactly the diametric opposite of what I feel with gluten and A1 casein.

Wheat is filling and satiating, as is A1 milk. Rice, potatoes, even with meat added, and A2 milk are all less satiating and allow me to eat a lot more. I have never found wheat to be addicting in any manner, it's actually one of the least addictive and most satiating foods on earth IMO, along with cheese. I never crave wheat the way I do potatoes or even rice.


I agree with all of those except the less calories part. When I eat gluten I basically lose my meat cravings and I eat less in general. I agree with the eyes part, and it probably has to do with canthal tilt.

But my mental focus also seems to have more depth while on wheat. It's less acute and energetic, but I understand things at a deeper level and have more patience to go into them further.

Regarding understanding things more deeply, I experimented that feeling with dopaminergic things, such as taurine and theanine.

 

[Sativa]

Regarding understanding things more deeply, I experimented that feeling with dopaminergic things, such as taurine and theanine.

btw, Theanine has multiple modes of action.

theanine is an AMPA antagonist, Kainate antagonist, a GABA-A agonist, and a Group One Metabotropic Glutamate Receptor antagonist. The Group One MGluR's boost the activity of NMDA receptors, so by blocking those receptors theanine is blocking NMDA (thus acting as an NMDA antagonist).
This means theanine is a nootropic. AMPA increases BDNF, and AMPA positive allosteric modulation is the mechanism of piracetam. This means theanine would upregulate AMPA, kainate, and Group One MGluR's. Once MGluR becomes upregulated NMDA would release more acetylcholine [you really want to keep NMDA below a certain level, even with upregulation, because beyond that there is 5HT1A downregulation and neurotoxicity]. AMPA would begin to act like it is under the influence of piracetam. There would be no subtle crash at the end of the AMPA upregulation.

Theanine also upregulates GDNF (glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor) - GDNF supports the survival of dopaminergic and motorneurons.

btw, of the top of my head - Zinc has pharmacological properties like amphetamine on the Dopamine Transporter (DAT)!