Should I Consider Myself Unhealthy If I Do Best Without Grains Or Dairy?

sunraiser

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I can tolerate most plant starches fine, and have been working with nutrition for years. I thought I was doing well eating bread and dairy occasionally....but I recently cut both and I noticed a persistent skin condition I've had for four years quickly go away, or about 80%. I've isolated all the variables. Ate pizza yesterday, it came back. Ate pie a week ago, came back.

I don't want to have to be so precise, as it makes me feel like I'm not healing.

Try some whole grain pasta (fussili holds sauce really well) with some olive oil basil pesto and whatever else you like on it.

You can then tell if it's blood sugar / thickening agent / yeast related as opposed to gluten.

I reckon you'll do fine with it!
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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I get a serotonin response from homemade bone broth. I've tested it over many years, to no avail. It's really irritating, as you'd think it would be helpful in that area. I'm Armenian and Irish mix.
 

Runenight201

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I gather that the several morphine-like substances (from digested wheat gluten) called gluten exorphins might be implicated in indirect endotoxin TLR4 receptor activation, so basically might in the long-term contribute to digestive/immune issues.

Also, from the study -
[source: The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease]

Re cow's dairy -


[source: Milk Intolerance, Beta-Casein and Lactose]

This is partly why I choose Goats dairy, and never bother with wheat in any form.
I am able to feel the opioid psychoactive effect from wheat and it is has real addictive potential! This is no surprise considering the nature of the Opioid system in the bodies overall dynamics and reward systems etc.
btw - I grew up on frosties(!) corn flakes, meat, wheat pasta/bread, cows/goats dairy.

-
As an aside, some interesting relevant contextual insight - this is from the wikipedia page on TLR4:

No lie I kind of like the opioid effects of wheat. I never really noticed it until it was mentioned here and I started paying attention, but now every time I eat bread I feel it, it feels like a nice gentle relaxation over my whole body. I always pair with plenty of saturated fat (butter on toast) and sugar and protein, and so I’m not quite sure if it has any negative physiological effects (unless one would consider my drugged out state to be negative). There are times when I distinctly want bread over taters, and I think it would be a greater offense to feed my body taters when it’s craving toast and butter. I was able to have a bowel movement shortly after my toast, eggs, and beef with Gatorade meal, and I feel pretty good right now...
 

jacob

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No lie I kind of like the opioid effects of wheat. I never really noticed it until it was mentioned here and I started paying attention, but now every time I eat bread I feel it, it feels like a nice gentle relaxation over my whole body. I always pair with plenty of saturated fat (butter on toast) and sugar and protein, and so I’m not quite sure if it has any negative physiological effects (unless one would consider my drugged out state to be negative). There are times when I distinctly want bread over taters, and I think it would be a greater offense to feed my body taters when it’s craving toast and butter. I was able to have a bowel movement shortly after my toast, eggs, and beef with Gatorade meal, and I feel pretty good right now...

I started eating generic white bread after you posted about it several months ago. I had avoided wheat, especially cheap white bread, for over a decade because it's easily the biggest villain in any health circle. White bread digests great for me, it doesn't give me cold hands & feet like eating large amounts of fruit, it doesn't bloat me like vegetables do, and it doesn't give me acne like milk does. It's by far the cheapest and most convenient item I eat. I'm not wild about the fortified iron, but I feel far better eating a loaf of $1 white bread than eating most Peat items.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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I started eating generic white bread after you posted about it several months ago. I had avoided wheat, especially cheap white bread, for over a decade because it's easily the biggest villain in any health circle. White bread digests great for me, it doesn't give me cold hands & feet like eating large amounts of fruit, it doesn't bloat me like vegetables do, and it doesn't give me acne like milk does. It's by far the cheapest and most convenient item I eat. I'm not wild about the fortified iron, but I feel far better eating a loaf of $1 white bread than eating most Peat items.

It is the most digestible of any wheat breads. The added iron and B vitamins may even be beneficial for some people. Eating bread also promotes vitamin K production in gut.

Cutting it out gives me mixed feelings. I feel a different kind of energy, I don't know if it's better or worse. And it's making me perceive, think on what satiation really is, and how a grain-free satiation feels different, not sure if it's better or worse. It's also made me wonder if there are bacteria that develop in the gut specific to wheat, and the "craving" for bread is really just the hunger of the bacteria.

Neither good nor evil.
 

Sugar Bun

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Orthorexia is a weasel word to make you ashamed of caring about your health in a world that is secretly trying to kill you. Until you're at the point of weighing your turds in ziploc baggies to make sure output offsets input you're probably fine.
 

Sugar Bun

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I thought I saw Ray Peat state in an interview that he hasn't consumed starch since 68 or 78, after reading about persorption. Or am I mistaken?
 

sunraiser

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Orthorexia is a weasel word to make you ashamed of caring about your health in a world that is secretly trying to kill you. Until you're at the point of weighing your turds in ziploc baggies to make sure output offsets input you're probably fine.

Sick people are much more vulnerable to dogma and there are plenty of people that cut foods because they read an article about all the nasty things in a certain food, things that in reality our bodies can deal with. Phytic acid is a great example.

When the mindset is honed on an acute awareness of foods instead of allowing the body to adapt and adjust to varying states of metabolic health then we start to perceive foods as the cause of all negative reactions when there's so much more at play.

Eating then becomes stressful instead of pleasurable - a guarantee to staying in poor health.

I've been there - it's absolutely rife on forums like this. There's absolutely a mental aspect to recovery, and it's completely understandable why people get there with all the dogmatic information - dogma gives a sense of authority and a clear instruction to follow and that's extremely reassuring when you're sick.

That sadly means the people sharing a balanced perspective are less likely to gain as much traction (though masterjohn isn't so bad).

Eating whole foods and finding and adapting enjoyable food combos in mixed meals and having a framework of consideration is of course healthy, but metabolic health is the cause, not directly foods.

I was eating "perfectly" and doing gym for years. Moving country and working with light in my eyes on my feet all day gave drastic health changes. Eating nothing but oil covered chicken and chips and chickpeas and pasta and eggs!
 

lvysaur

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Cutting it out gives me mixed feelings. I feel a different kind of energy, I don't know if it's better or worse. And it's making me perceive, think on what satiation really is, and how a grain-free satiation feels different, not sure if it's better or worse.
How does it feel different?
 

Sativa

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I feel far better eating a loaf of $1 white bread

This would in part be due to the highly pleasurable psychoactive effects of the gluten exorphins, which stimulate the Mu Opioid receptor.

I feel that repeated dosing of wheat [gluten] which results in Mu opioid stimulation would be analogous to small doses of an Opioid drug, so one can imagine the associated psychological influences this might have on the person. Also, I presume there would be associated withdrawl aspects, as well as habitual behaviour - notably associated both consciously and subconsciously with the trigger - be it wheat, morphine, cows milk or socialising.

Note I am objectively analysing this dynamic. I am aware that things like socialising also involve massive Opioid system activation, for biological reasons etc etc.

The brain opioid systems are known to play an important role in motivation, emotion, attachment behavior, the response to stress and pain, and the control of food intake.

It seems prudent & strtegic to be aware of the habit forming influences of the foods that we eat, for the sake of personal well-being. PS. I very much enjoy goats cheese!

Some insight into food-related Opioids:
  • Casomorphin (from casein found in the milk of mammals, including cows)
  • Gluten exorphin (from gluten found in wheat, rye, barley)
  • Gliadorphin/gluteomorphin (from gluten found in wheat, rye, barley)
  • Soymorphin-5 (from soybean)
  • Rubiscolin (from spinach)
  • Menthol – Found in numerous species of mint, (including peppermint, spearmint, and watermint), menthol activates the kappa opioid receptor
  • Black Cumin Seed aka Nigella sativa (broad 'indirect' Opioid effects)
  • Myrrh oil (targets Mu and Delta)

-

Insight on the 'main' Opioid receptors:

Mu Receptor
Activation of the mu receptor by a substance such as morphine causes sedation, euphoria and decreased respiration.

Although morphine increases sedation, it decreases the total amount of deep sleep and rapid eye movement sleep in humans.

Individual differences in the function of the mu-receptor system predict personality traits that confer vulnerability to or resiliency against risky behaviors such as the predisposition to develop substance use disorders

Delta Receptor
Molecules that bind to delta opioid receptors show robust evidence of both antidepressant effects and also increase of BDNF production in the brain in animal models of depression.

They also protect against heart damage from strokes by preconditioning our heart. DORs are neuroprotective as well and work in part by reducing TNF.

Activation of delta receptors produces some pain relief, although less than that of mu-opioid activators.

Kappa Receptor (releases Prolactin btw!)

Kappa activation actually produces a bad mood (dysphoria), some pain relief (analgesic), urination (diuretic) and in high dosages produce hallucinations.

It can cause an appetite increase and is activated by stress.


KOR activation causes a release of prolactin.
KOR activation opposes many of the effects of the Mu-OR and can prevent addiction.

-

As an aside, I came across this relevant tid-bit on social dynamics & opioids:

These are the same feelings that people who take opioids report: a feeling of warmth and being nurtured or loved.” When a social bond is formed, oxytocin reconfigures the mu-opioid system so that a loved one’s presence relieves stress and pain—and that person’s absence, or a threat to the relationship, increases distress.

The neurohormone Oxytocin can be triggered by agonists of the 5-HT1A (serotonin receptor), as well as hugging/being close with a loved one.

Smelling the limonene in lemon oil stimulates 5-HT1A ... as well as naturally released endocannabinoids!

Perhaps certain smells & activities which trigger serotonin receptors should be put on the watchlist! ;)
 
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Orthorexia is a weasel word to make you ashamed of caring about your health in a world that is secretly trying to kill you. Until you're at the point of weighing your turds in ziploc baggies to make sure output offsets input you're probably fine.
I would agree.
 

sunraiser

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This would in part be due to the highly pleasurable psychoactive effects of the gluten exorphins, which stimulate the Mu Opioid receptor.

I feel that repeated dosing of wheat [gluten] which results in Mu opioid stimulation would be analogous to small doses of an Opioid drug, so one can imagine the associated psychological influences this might have on the person. Also, I presume there would be associated withdrawl aspects, as well as habitual behaviour - notably associated both consciously and subconsciously with the trigger - be it wheat, morphine, cows milk or socialising.

Note I am objectively analysing this dynamic. I am aware that things like socialising also involve massive Opioid system activation, for biological reasons etc etc.



It seems prudent & strtegic to be aware of the habit forming influences of the foods that we eat, for the sake of personal well-being. PS. I very much enjoy goats cheese!

Some insight into food-related Opioids:


-

Insight on the 'main' Opioid receptors:

Mu Receptor


Delta Receptor


Kappa Receptor (releases Prolactin btw!)



-

As an aside, I came across this relevant tid-bit on social dynamics & opioids:



The neurohormone Oxytocin can be triggered by agonists of the 5-HT1A (serotonin receptor), as well as hugging/being close with a loved one.

Smelling the limonene in lemon oil stimulates 5-HT1A ... as well as naturally released endocannabinoids!

Perhaps certain smells & activities which trigger serotonin receptors should be put on the watchlist! ;)

To anyone that has actually used drugs and/or has an addictive personality this idea is completely insane.

It's rude to say but it's just laughable. Gluten does not produce a drug like pleasure response !!

All foods promote a pleasure response... Eating keeps us alive. Certain foods are pleasurable at certain times based on macro and micro nutrient needs.

Sorry but this is a classical example of harmful and destructive theorising that causes restrictive and unhealthy tendencies.

Disprove it yourself. Try different drugs and then try a slice of bread. Then return with peace of mind and higher sanity levels!

Addiction is not craving something once in a while. It's all ******* encompassing.

I apologise for the absence of diplomacy; it's not personal to you but more to the point being made. Prime example of fearmongering even though it's completely easy to empirically disprove it.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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To anyone that has actually used drugs and/or has an addictive personality this idea is completely insane.

It's rude to say but it's just laughable. Gluten does not produce a drug like pleasure response !!

All foods promote a pleasure response... Eating keeps us alive. Certain foods are pleasurable at certain times based on macro and micro nutrient needs.

Sorry but this is a classical example of harmful and destructive theorising that causes restrictive and unhealthy tendencies.

Disprove it yourself. Try different drugs and then try a slice of bread. Then return with peace of mind and higher sanity levels!

Addiction is not craving something once in a while. It's all ******* encompassing.

I apologise for the absence of diplomacy; it's not personal to you but more to the point being made. Prime example of fearmongering even though it's completely easy to empirically disprove it.

I think I actually agree that wheat can be addictive similar to a drug. It provides a pleasure that is different than other foods. Whether that's a bad thing I'm not sure....
 

Sugar Bun

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Is this something you can recall clearly when you reassess past experience with bread? I can't say I've ever noticed the opiate like effect.
Maybe I should just show up at parties with bags of seitan so we can all freebase gluten.
 
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To anyone that has actually used drugs and/or has an addictive personality this idea is completely insane.

It's rude to say but it's just laughable. Gluten does not produce a drug like pleasure response !!

All foods promote a pleasure response... Eating keeps us alive. Certain foods are pleasurable at certain times based on macro and micro nutrient needs.

Sorry but this is a classical example of harmful and destructive theorising that causes restrictive and unhealthy tendencies.

Disprove it yourself. Try different drugs and then try a slice of bread. Then return with peace of mind and higher sanity levels!

Addiction is not craving something once in a while. It's all ******* encompassing.

I apologise for the absence of diplomacy; it's not personal to you but more to the point being made. Prime example of fearmongering even though it's completely easy to empirically disprove it.
Wheat is definitely addictive, in my experience. I haven't eaten gluten in many years, but when I was a child, I remember eating gluten containing things and even when my belly was absolutely full of wheat, I was still craving it and no matter how much I ate, it was never enough, even when my stomach was hurting it was so full. As soon as I ditched gluten, never had those feelings anymore. Now I eat a good amount of meat with coke and some rice as a meal and feel comfortably full and very satisfied after eating. I think casein had a similar effect.

I agree that eating itself is very pleasureable, but most people would agree that wheat and other exorphins have a very diferente effect, which isn't expressed by other foods.
 
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I think I actually agree that wheat can be addictive similar to a drug. It provides a pleasure that is different than other foods. Whether that's a bad thing I'm not sure....
Well, if addiction is the only side-effect(which I don't think is the case), then If you have very good self control, you can eat a moderate amount of gluten and be fine. But the thing is, it will make you feel unsatisfied for a few moments after rejecting the idea of stuffing your face with huge amounts of gluten. If you do fine with that, then I think the other problems would be the inflammation from the gluten particles.
 
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Peatogenic

Peatogenic

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Is this something you can recall clearly when you reassess past experience with bread? I can't say I've ever noticed the opiate like effect.
Maybe I should just show up at parties with bags of seitan so we can all freebase gluten.

Oh definitely. I mean, just recently when I hadn't eaten a scant of any wheat for like 8 days it was like being in heaven, like really strong feeling. But strangely I hadn't been walking around feeling like I wanted bread.
 

Sativa

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Upon some further research, it seems that the wheat gluten exorphins have the potential to stimulate prolactin release via the Opioid system!

(Prolactin is not really a desirable substance - it has an inverse relationship with dopamine. High Prolactin = low dopamine, which results in low motivation, low energy, possible depression etc!)

Seeing as the study was performed in rats, (and i foresee some users using this as a weakness in the perspective I am neutrally presenting) I found one that showed a human link between an opioid drug (that shares similar pharmacolgy to gluten exorphin) and prolactin release.

The role of opioids in endocrine regulation has been the subject of numerous studies. Surprisingly, however, the acute endocrine effects of morphine on basal hormonal levels in man have not been adequately documented.

We report here the effects of intravenous morphine (5 mg) on plasma cortisol and prolactin.

Morphine stimulated prolactin release.

Cortisol secretion was markedly suppressed by morphine.

These results are consistent with the presence of an inhibitory opioid mechanism in the human hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis.

[source: Morphine inhibits cortisol and stimulates prolactin secretion in man. - PubMed - NCBI]



Here is a more indepth study linking opioid activation with prolactin. They wonder whether the gluten exorphin opioid peptides exert their actions (on opioid and prolactin) from inside or outside of the Blood Brain Barrier, and perform the necessary investigation.

They use naloxone, an opioid receptor antagonist which blocks opioid receptors in the entire body. This neutralises the likely opioid-mediated effects of the well-known gluten opioid peptides!

Here is the relevant bits from the study:
Gluten exorphin B5 (GE-B5) is a food-derived opioid peptide identified in digests of wheat gluten. We have recently shown that GE-B5 stimulates prolactin (PRL) secretion in rats; this effect is abolished by preadministration of the opioid receptor antagonist naloxone.

However, since the structure of naloxone allows it to cross the blood-brain barrier (BBB) and antagonize opioid effects centrally as well as peripherally, it could not established, on the basis of those data, if GE-B5-induced PRL release is exerted through sites located inside or outside the BBB.

GE-B5 stimulated PRL secretion;
...
NMB preadministration completely abolished PRL response.

Our experiment indicates that GE-B5 stimulates PRL secretion through opioid receptors located outside the BBB. Since opioid peptides do not exert their effect on PRL secretion directly, but via a reduced dopaminergic tone, our data suggest that GE-B5 can modify brain neurotransmitter release without crossing the BBB.

[Source: Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier. - PubMed - NCBI]


Elevated Prolactin in Coeliac's (they have opioid/TLR4 receptors in their digestive tracts too ofc)
Elevated circulating prolactin levels were observed in individuals diagnosed with CD [48].

A short gluten-free diet period lowered prolactin levels in these patients, suggesting that gluten (or gluten-derived substances), similar to endogenous opioids, directly affects prolactin secretion.


[source: The opioid effects of gluten exorphins: asymptomatic celiac disease]
 
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Oh definitely. I mean, just recently when I hadn't eaten a scant of any wheat for like 8 days it was like being in heaven, like really strong feeling. But strangely I hadn't been walking around feeling like I wanted bread.
I feel like the addictive effect is at its strongest near the moment of ingestion.
 

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