Should fructose be minimized if one already has low ATP?

gaze

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As I understand it, some of the benefit of fructose is that it uses up or lowers ATP (deplete atp?) by releasing phosphate , and it increases thermogenesis, increasing the burning of glucose, and increases "uncoupling". this leads to being able to eat more without gaining weight, increased fat loss, etc.

However, for someone who already has low atp, and the things that go along with that which include low body weight, low bone mass, low t3, etc, should fructose be minimized in favor of more glucose? for someone with already low atp who's underweight, eating too much fruit tends to feel like it goes in the direction of malnutrition, and the cancer type of "wasting", while something like glucose feels more anabolic and it builds up. of course protein is needed to build up too, but even a high protein and high fruit diet feels like it wouldn't be as efficient for someone who needs more atp to use starch + protein instead. insulin is also highly involved with atp and T3, and fructose tends to block those anabolic actions that just eating more protein doesn't seem to fix. only sugar seems to work only if you supplement t3, which would take care of the problem to a large degree. that isn't an option for many people however

any ideas?
 
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Hans

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Fructose only "depletes/lowers" ATP in vitro studies or in horribly designed animal models. Yes fructose uses ATP to produce pyruvate, but fructose also increases pyruvate dehydrogenase and stimulates ATP production to a greater extent than glucose. Peat has mentioned that when calcium deficiency animals were put on a high fructose diet, their bone density was normal, despite being lighter.

Have you tried drinking smoothies (milk with fruit) or milk with maple syrup/agave syrup/honey?
 

gaze

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Fructose only "depletes/lowers" ATP in vitro studies or in horribly designed animal models. Yes fructose uses ATP to produce pyruvate, but fructose also increases pyruvate dehydrogenase and stimulates ATP production to a greater extent than glucose. Peat has mentioned that when calcium deficiency animals were put on a high fructose diet, their bone density was normal, despite being lighter.

Have you tried drinking smoothies (milk with fruit) or milk with maple syrup/agave syrup/honey?
Yea I eat usually 2 quarts of milk per day, close to 2 quarts of OJ, either cod/shrimp/crab/beef, a couple ounces of reggiano, and 1 to 2 pints of haagen dazs vanilla per day, I think its like 3000-3500 calories usually. Im still around 6 ft 140 lb so very skinny. On blood tests my t3 is low, so that's why I was wondering if using potatoes and white rice would be better as the carb source so I can eat less, get more insulin, and per calorie a potato would probably be more anabolic than a glass of OJ at least for low thyroid people? the previous times I've tried to rely on white rice and potatos didn't end well digestive wise, but I'm thinking If I combine it with weight lifting it can stimulate t3 along with muscle growth. Is insulin needed for the conversion of T4 to T3 or is it just the presence of glycogen in the liver? Would sugar + protein provide enough insulin or can fructose inhibitition of insulin be a problem?
 
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gaze

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"Fatter women are less likely to break bones than thinner women. Insulin, which causes the formation of fat, also stimulates bone growth."

Ray also wrote this in his estrogen and osteoporosis article. A bit of a contradiction because he also wants to keep insulin low, which makes sense for weight maintenence

It seems like being able to eat high insulin foods without fat gain would be ideal for anabolic growth, something like high starch, 100-150 grams protein depending on weight, and 60g of fat would be ideal for people who have low t3, low bone mass, etc. then again eating fruits feels better in every other aspect including digestion, it's just hard to gain weight with it.
 

Sofia2020

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I think in one of his articles Ray Peat mentioned, that if someone is allergic to something, then he is not eating enough sugars. Or maybe it was that stable blood glucose level terminates allergies.
 

gaze

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I think in one of his articles Ray Peat mentioned, that if someone is allergic to something, then he is not eating enough sugars. Or maybe it was that stable blood glucose level terminates allergies.
wrong thread ?
 

lampofred

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If your ATP is low then focusing on fructose versus glucose is like missing the forest for the trees. Something bigger is missing which is causing the low ATP. Maybe too much lactate due to a calcium deficiency.
 

gaze

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If your ATP is low then focusing on fructose versus glucose is like missing the forest for the trees. Something bigger is missing which is causing the low ATP. Maybe too much lactate due to a calcium deficiency.
I do get leg cramps very often in bed, could be a lactic acid problem. I do get a lot of calcium however, and alot of potassium and magnesium and salt. Either thyroid or insulin is needed to utilize all the minerals and to efficiently put them into cells however. Thats why eating a high insulin meal lowers mienrals in the blood, because it puts them to use. Thats what causes "refeeding syndrome" in anorexics, becase insulin lowers the blood content of the electrolytes. This is why I'm a bit confused between the relationship between insulin and thyroid, because both insulin and thryoid utilize the electrolytes, so I wonder in lower thyroid people, maybe a high insulin diet can mimic the effects of thyroid to put glucose and magnesium into the cells that need them. A milk and fruit diet works well when thyroid is good, but without thyroid, along with low insulin stimulation, things don't seem to work as well. Its a matter of sticking to the diet in hoeps that slowly the thyroid will turn on, or supplementing thyroid like ray does.
 

gaze

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i may experiment with doubling protein from 2 quarts of milk a day to a gallon of milk. GOMAD seems to universally anabolic. maybe add 1 to 2 potatoes, and OJ and ice cream. If I can't gain weight on that I probably have some sort of malabsorption problem or I may just supplement t3
 

Hans

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Yea I eat usually 2 quarts of milk per day, close to 2 quarts of OJ, either cod/shrimp/crab/beef, a couple ounces of reggiano, and 1 to 2 pints of haagen dazs vanilla per day, I think its like 3000-3500 calories usually. Im still around 6 ft 140 lb so very skinny. On blood tests my t3 is low, so that's why I was wondering if using potatoes and white rice would be better as the carb source so I can eat less, get more insulin, and per calorie a potato would probably be more anabolic than a glass of OJ at least for low thyroid people? the previous times I've tried to rely on white rice and potatos didn't end well digestive wise, but I'm thinking If I combine it with weight lifting it can stimulate t3 along with muscle growth. Is insulin needed for the conversion of T4 to T3 or is it just the presence of glycogen in the liver? Would sugar + protein provide enough insulin or can fructose inhibitition of insulin be a problem?
Milk is apparently insulinogenic although it's a low GI food, so that could be one of the many reasons why it's anabolic.
If you do get cramps, then it could be lactate as you say. Low B1 is known to worsen/cause high lactate.
Zinc, iron and selenium and low stress are necessary for proper thyroid hormone conversion.
 

gaze

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Milk is apparently insulinogenic although it's a low GI food, so that could be one of the many reasons why it's anabolic.
If you do get cramps, then it could be lactate as you say. Low B1 is known to worsen/cause high lactate.
Zinc, iron and selenium and low stress are necessary for proper thyroid hormone conversion.
Thanks. So I guess it's pretty clear then that im in the glycoltic metabolism, with energy being wasted into lactic acid? So simply eating more refined foods like a pint or 2 of ice cream a day may not help with t3 production? Do you think there would be any value in a high starch diet, lower fat diet to try and increase insulin and insulin sensitivity for glucose utilization or would just focusing on calcium, b vitamins, low stress, and pro-thyroid things be better for digesting glucose properly? My primary concern is fructose blocking insulin's actions which is beneficial for a lot of things but possibly not for underweight, catabolic type of people. Also wouldn't insulin oppose cortisol and adrenaline, both of which block t4 to t3 production, so a high insulin meal, so long as it doesn't cause hypoglycemia, could be theraputic?
 
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Hans

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Thanks. So I guess it's pretty clear then that im in the glycoltic metabolism, with energy being wasted into lactic acid? So simply eating more refined foods like a pint or 2 of ice cream a day may not help with t3 production? Do you think there would be any value in a high starch diet, lower fat diet to try and increase insulin and insulin sensitivity for glucose utilization or would just focusing on calcium, b vitamins, low stress, and pro-thyroid things be better for digesting glucose properly? My primary concern is fructose blocking insulin's actions which is beneficial for a lot of things but possibly not for underweight, catabolic type of people
How do you feel after eating icecream? If you eat a lot of refined foods and feel slightly spacy and out of breath and just funky, then I'd say it's best to avoid it. Peat mentioned that he could eat 8000 calories and not gain weight until he started using thyroid. Starch sensitivity isn't necessarily caused by poor absorption, but rather a hyperactive/supersensitive immune system. So avoiding certain problematic foods for long enough to allow the immune system to calm down will enable you to eat those foods again without negative reactions.
But fructose doesn't block the effects of insulin, but can help to prevent it from getting out of hand.
If gaining weight is impossible, then just eat more. I'm sure you'll reach a point where you'll gain weight. Adding sugar and fat are easy calories.
 

gaze

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How do you feel after eating icecream? If you eat a lot of refined foods and feel slightly spacy and out of breath and just funky, then I'd say it's best to avoid it. Peat mentioned that he could eat 8000 calories and not gain weight until he started using thyroid. Starch sensitivity isn't necessarily caused by poor absorption, but rather a hyperactive/supersensitive immune system. So avoiding certain problematic foods for long enough to allow the immune system to calm down will enable you to eat those foods again without negative reactions.
But fructose doesn't block the effects of insulin, but can help to prevent it from getting out of hand.
If gaining weight is impossible, then just eat more. I'm sure you'll reach a point where you'll gain weight. Adding sugar and fat are easy calories.
I feel ok with it, sometimes I can feel if I eat too much of it I causes excess cramping, so maybe not enough b1. however I definitely feel better eating the ice cream than not eating any of it, simply for the calories. If I dont eat any I'm usually pretty hungry at night and I find myself losing weight, but its hard to get calories elsewhere because Im already at half gallon of milk, and a half gallon of orange juice, along with proteins and cheese and stuff. I may try replacing some of the calories of ice cream with more milk though, but usually my urine becomes pretty clear at more than a gallon of fluids.

And thanks for all the advice. Last question: So should one be able to handle starch, do you think theres still nothing more beneficial about starch opposed to fruit other than calories? You would probably agree with Ray's quote which said when theres a non starchy fruit available, its always preferable than starch, so pretty much in any scenerio besides starvation, fruit would be better?
 
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