Should cysteine and taurine both be avoided or minimized?

[Rafael Lao Wai]

email he said amount aspartate in a single capsule is small but his friend used lots of calcium and magnesium aspartate and got seizures from it..
i personally when i used the recommended dose of zma, 450mg mag aspartate, 10.5mg b6 pyridoxine hcl, 30mg zinc, i got damn facial twitches randomly mate it was embarrassing i was talking to my friends and face starts twitching so i then have to run away and pretend i was about to sneeze or something its awkward...
dont know if its b6 or the aspartate excess causing the facial twitches...

A lot of this amino can be excitatory, that may explain the seizures Ray's friend had, and your muscle twitching. Glutamate is another aminoacid with exciting effects.

Also, lol at face twitching during conversation. Must have been annoying.

 

[frannybananny]

it might be a small amount
magnesium glycine is 700mg glycine per 100mg magnesium... but the amount of the amino acid varies depending on the type

Thank you.

 

[frannybananny]

Magnesium Taurate contains 8.9% elemental magnesium by mass. That translates to 1123mg of taurine per 100mg of elemental Magnesium.

1000mg of taurine is plenty, but the unique benefits of Magnesium Taurate might outweight the cons of Taurine.

I would not use it long term, though.

Thank you, even though I don't understand how you got your values. Sorry.

The label says to take 3 capsules daily....
3 capsules provide 1500 mg Magnesium Tayrate providing 120 mg of elemental magnesium = 28.57% Daily value.

This seems like an awful lot of Taurine in there but, being sensitive to supplements, I usually open the capsule and just take a bit of the powder.... no where near the recommended 3 capsules but it works to help me sleep. I do feel slighlty groggy the next morning though.

 

[PeskyPeater]

email he said amount aspartate in a single capsule is small but his friend used lots of calcium and magnesium aspartate and got seizures from it..
i personally when i used the recommended dose of zma, 450mg mag aspartate, 10.5mg b6 pyridoxine hcl, 30mg zinc, i got damn facial twitches randomly mate it was embarrassing i was talking to my friends and face starts twitching so i then have to run away and pretend i was about to sneeze or something its awkward...
dont know if its b6 or the aspartate excess causing the facial twitches...

Yeah, see this is the ill effect, a concoction of amino acids can have on the biosynthesis cycle in the body. Your cells are pre-programmed to perform synthesis. And if you force-feed them extra synthetic alternatives they, the cells can use alternative pathways in response, practically you are disrupting their goal. With unforeseen effect. Scientists are still working out these pathways. Only through experiment and measure can we then perceive these disruptive effects.

 

[Dr. B]

Yeah, see this is the ill effect, a concoction of amino acids can have on the biosynthesis cycle in the body. Your cells are pre-programmed to perform synthesis. And if you force-feed them extra synthetic alternatives they, the cells can use alternative pathways in response, practically you are disrupting their goal. With unforeseen effect. Scientists are still working out these pathways. Only through experiment and measure can we then perceive these disruptive effects.

either a b complex or caffeine pills seem to cause random eye twitching... not sure maybe they deplete magnesium, maybe caffeine does it
its mild, and happens randomly the next 24 hours after using those together...
ive made an exception using b vitamins since they are at least 'vitamins' and essential... im more wary of using taurine or any supplemental amino acids, besides the "essential" aminos from food proteins... like taurine can be made from cysteine and b6 so im wary of supplementing.

im debating whether i should use creatine and beta alanine, as i used to use them for many years while weightlifting and the results at least gym wise seemed good. but creatine has some similar effects to choline supplementation, it causes more sweating, oily skin/hair, some anxiety, maybe more acne too. beta alanine seems to also increase anxiety and has a laxative effect, seems it could help digestion and maybe increase stomach acidity. so im not sure about using those.

creatines made from methionine, arginine, choline and glycine. glutathiones made from cysteine, glutamine and glycine. taurines made from cysteine and b6, maybe other methods too. carnosine is made from histidine and beta alanine. carnitine is made, im not sure from what though. but glycine is used in several of those, so that may be some of the reasons for gelatins benefits. the others are relatively easier to get, besides choline you need some liver, milk, lots of meat.
magnesium aspartate, doesnt have the side effects of magnesium malate, or magnesium citrate. its better tolerated than even magnesium glycinate somehow. those other magnesium forms had a bloating or stomach irritating effect, whereas aspartate had a neutral or pro digestion effect without irritating the stomach or causing a laxative effect.

the pharmaceutical grade creatine and beta alanine, like creapure german creatine, carnosyn patented beta alanine, are definitely superior. non patented forms caused bloating, or had odd odors to the powder whereas those pharma grade patented ones are odorless and digested easier, no issues with those. not sure if taurine has a high quality pharma grade form for it. taurine supplementation seems it could be even more risky if already supplementing b6. maybe for b6 or cysteine deficient people, who arent making much taurine, it could be useful and explain why some seem to really benefit. creatine also seems to have the most noticeable effects for vegans or people who dont eat meat or drink milk, or eat eggs. note out of most those amino acids Peat doesnt like supplementing and likes limiting their intake. glutamine, methionine, arginine, histidine, cysteine, choline, tryptophan, those are all things Peat not only doesnt like supplementing but he likes limiting dietary intake of them. so the best strategy may be to supplement certain b vitamins to encourage the body to convert more of those toxic aminos into more positive things like creatine, glutathione, taurine, carnosine etc?

trpytophan is used to make niacin, ive heard it depends on metabolic rate, but also the need of the body. the conversion rate is something like 60mg tryptophan makes 1mg of niacin. so i wonder if using niacinamide/niacin, indirectly causes more tryptophan to go towards serotonin instead of niacin? the body may have tight controls over all these different nutrients and things it produces, so it could be that niacin does this. unless, if metabolism is poor, if tryptophan goes to serotonin even when there is a need for niacin/niacinamide then in that case supplementing those would help.

biotin is low in foods but apparently gut bacteria make it. with the toxic diets/lifestyles of many people, it may be helpful or needed to supplement it. folate is tough to get from diet unless lots of OJ, milk, liver is present.

regarding beta alanine, I wonder if that may actually be very useful. its considered the rate limiting factor for carnosine synthesis. because, most people get lots of histidine from diet, but beta alanine, not so much. so using beta alanine allows more carnosine to form, whereas, if you arent using beta alanine, the question is what does that histidine do in the body? if histidine isnt going towards carnosine, does it have more toxic effects in the body? beta alanine seemed to stimulate blood flow and cause erections soon after using it too. so it may be something useful.

additionally, it has a relationship with taurine. it supposedly competes against, and depletes taurine. but the body can make taurine using cysteine and b6. it cant make carnosine unless yo have enough beta alanine and histidine. so using beta alanine, could encourage using up more cysteine and b6 you get from dietary intake, to go towards taurine. so if your b6 intake and cysteine are high, it could make using beta alanine more tolerable.

at the same time, you need that cysteine for making glutathione as well. so in that regard, beta alanine could place more stress on the body. you need b6 and cysteine for taurine, and cysteines needed for glutathione as well. using beta alanine alone, without taurine, may be helpful for people with big excesses of cysteine and b6... but if you dont have the excesses, you may deplete cysteine too much...

some people supplement n acetyl cysteine... which may again make stacking taurine on top of it risky, and may make beta alanine/b6 supplementation more tolerable...

i also wonder what the histidine does in the body when not being converted to carnosine... maybe a conservative dose of BA/creatine are safer and more useful. 2.5g creatine, and 2g beta alanine, instead of 5g creatine and 4g beta alanine. beta alanine seems to cause crazy dreams if taken too close to bedtime.

 

[gaze]

Ray says tryptophan in milk is not a problem because the calcium raises the metabolic rate which increases its conversion niacin. but if you drink milk and the calcium doesn't raise temps, does that mean the tryptophan is causing harm?

 

[Dr. B]

Ray says tryptophan in milk is not a problem because the calcium raises the metabolic rate which increases its conversion niacin. but if you drink milk and the calcium doesn't raise temps, does that mean the tryptophan is causing harm?

not sure,
some other websites say its also based on the bodys needs. like if dietary niacin/niacinamide is lacking, more tryptophan will be converted to it.
it may also be certain b vitamins or other nutrients in the milk, making it encourage the tryptophan towards niacin.

i dont know how essential Ray thinks shellfish are, im wary of using them because i dont want to cook them, and i think the ocean may be so toxic its not safe to use these things anymore, like the molecularly distilled fish oil may ironically be the safest seafood product you can consume these days. it probably has no toxins. i seemed to get pimples on the forehead and upper back, if i use just 500mg krill oil. is there really enough phosphatidylcholine (or astaxanthin) in those to cause that effect or is it some toxins in antarctic krill oil? when i tried molecularly distilled (alaskan pollock) fish oil, it didnt cause any sort of pimple effect, even from a gram a day.

anyway, the shellfish have lots of taurine. he said milk, cheese, liver also has it. but if youre avoiding shellfish, youre only gonna get like 200-400mg taurine from those other foods. but maybe milk and liver contain enough b6 and cysteine to where you could synthesize any additional taurine if needed?

i also wonder of the risks to beta alanine, there seem to be serious risks that can happen if you mess with glutathione production, which needs glycine, cysteine, glutamine. glutamines pretty easy to get, but cysteine/glycine are pretty scarce to begin with. so if youre using beta alanine, the body may be using its cysteine for taurine when it also needs some of it for glutathione. glycines needed for both creatine and glutathione, cysteine needed for both glutathione and taurine, so those are maybe some you dont want to mess with...

creatine could create or spare methionine, arginine, choline and also glycine... and that extra arginine could then go towards excess nitric oxide production? it may explain creatines pro erection effect, but also its side effects considering we should be limiting arginine and methionine to begin with?

i used 5g creatine and 4g beta alanine daily for around 7 years straight, so had a lot of time to observe the minute effects of each one... although I almost always used them together, but I can confirm beta alanine has the laxative effect and crazy dream effect.

niacinamide, or glycine/gelatin would make creatine more tolerable since they help excrete methyl groups. glycine only excretes excess methyl groups, whereas niacinamide depletes them indiscriminately ( i think thats what chris masterjohns video on them said). so the niacinamide or gelatin would help get rid of the excess methylation/methionine/choline from the creatine, but wouldnt take care of the excess arginine. creatine actually wouldnt even spare glycine considering the spared glycine would be used up in excreting the excess methionine/choline from creatine usage (unless your diet is low in those two to begin with)

any ideas on what arginine can convert to or what it does in the body besides making nitric oxide? does it also increase histamine?

niacinamide could potentially spare glycine, if it takes over the job of depleting excess methyl groups, then more glycine could be spared for glutathione and other uses.

 

[Dr. B]

Can only speculate, Im not a bio-synthesis expert. But relative high protein intake without a deficiency in cysteine in the diet should help prevent it from breaking down into toxic metabolites.
reducing estrogen helps prevent tryptophan turning into bad metabolites.

cysteines used for both glutathione and taurine. so sparing it could help if your intake of it is already low... id imagine sparing it would become more important if diet isnt meat heavy or taurine heavy, and youre supplementing beta alanine too.
vitamin b5, pantothenic acid ive heard depletes or somehow inhibits taurine, so thats another thing, could increase cysteine utilization towards making more taurine
so another thing to be careful of, if your b complex has b5, supplementing something like beta alanine would be even more risky, as well as limiting cysteine intake too much. also means youd need to be careful of using too much gelatin as a protein source if supplementing with b vitamins, you may need to actually use some things like whey protein or meat, to get some of those 'toxic' amino acids that gelatin lacks. some of these b vitamins seem to be able to help counter the effects of the toxic amino acids

 

[gaze]

not sure,
some other websites say its also based on the bodys needs. like if dietary niacin/niacinamide is lacking, more tryptophan will be converted to it.
it may also be certain b vitamins or other nutrients in the milk, making it encourage the tryptophan towards niacin.

i dont know how essential Ray thinks shellfish are, im wary of using them because i dont want to cook them, and i think the ocean may be so toxic its not safe to use these things anymore, like the molecularly distilled fish oil may ironically be the safest seafood product you can consume these days. it probably has no toxins. i seemed to get pimples on the forehead and upper back, if i use just 500mg krill oil. is there really enough phosphatidylcholine (or astaxanthin) in those to cause that effect or is it some toxins in antarctic krill oil? when i tried molecularly distilled (alaskan pollock) fish oil, it didnt cause any sort of pimple effect, even from a gram a day.

anyway, the shellfish have lots of taurine. he said milk, cheese, liver also has it. but if youre avoiding shellfish, youre only gonna get like 200-400mg taurine from those other foods. but maybe milk and liver contain enough b6 and cysteine to where you could synthesize any additional taurine if needed?

i also wonder of the risks to beta alanine, there seem to be serious risks that can happen if you mess with glutathione production, which needs glycine, cysteine, glutamine. glutamines pretty easy to get, but cysteine/glycine are pretty scarce to begin with. so if youre using beta alanine, the body may be using its cysteine for taurine when it also needs some of it for glutathione. glycines needed for both creatine and glutathione, cysteine needed for both glutathione and taurine, so those are maybe some you dont want to mess with...

creatine could create or spare methionine, arginine, choline and also glycine... and that extra arginine could then go towards excess nitric oxide production? it may explain creatines pro erection effect, but also its side effects considering we should be limiting arginine and methionine to begin with?

i used 5g creatine and 4g beta alanine daily for around 7 years straight, so had a lot of time to observe the minute effects of each one... although I almost always used them together, but I can confirm beta alanine has the laxative effect and crazy dream effect.

niacinamide, or glycine/gelatin would make creatine more tolerable since they help excrete methyl groups. glycine only excretes excess methyl groups, whereas niacinamide depletes them indiscriminately ( i think thats what chris masterjohns video on them said). so the niacinamide or gelatin would help get rid of the excess methylation/methionine/choline from the creatine, but wouldnt take care of the excess arginine. creatine actually wouldnt even spare glycine considering the spared glycine would be used up in excreting the excess methionine/choline from creatine usage (unless your diet is low in those two to begin with)

any ideas on what arginine can convert to or what it does in the body besides making nitric oxide? does it also increase histamine?

niacinamide could potentially spare glycine, if it takes over the job of depleting excess methyl groups, then more glycine could be spared for glutathione and other uses.

yea i'm not sure. i don't trust a weak body to ever make the beneficial conversion with any amino acid. i think almost all of them require good energy production and co2, which a weak body lacks. i don't think b6 is a enough to make beneficial conversions in a hypothyroid person. which is why milk can be a bit problem for some

i agree fish is also sometimes risky, and they often are sprayed with chemical agents to store it after catching. i think whole foods says all the fish they sell, both fresh or frozen, are chemical free. personally i only eat crabs, scallops, and smoked oysters. i don't trust anything else

 

[Dr. B]

yea i'm not sure. i don't trust a weak body to ever make the beneficial conversion with any amino acid. i think almost all of them require good energy production and co2, which a weak body lacks. i don't think b6 is a enough to make beneficial conversions in a hypothyroid person. which is why milk can be a bit problem for some

i agree fish is also sometimes risky, and they often are sprayed with chemical agents to store it after catching. i think whole foods says all the fish they sell, both fresh or frozen, are chemical free. personally i only eat crabs, scallops, and smoked oysters. i don't trust anything else

that may be for a specific and beneficial purpose, like cholesterol doesnt convert to pregnenolone when hypo, but that doesnt mean simply throwing pregnenolone in there while hypo will fix things, the preg may go straight to cortisol as it seemed to do when i tried it.
the b vitamins may be able to help force the conversions, im not sure
there may be issues on either side, for instance if supplementing taurine spares b6 and cysteine, it may make an excess of those
supplementing only something like NAC, or only something like b6, may also cause an excess or deficiency in the corresponding one. supposedly the b vitamins excesses are just peed out, but maybe that in itself is still a process which drains something else from the body to excrete them. some sites say excess vitamin C supplementation leeches up zinc and calcium from the body since theyre involved in helping excrete it.
like if supplementing b6 speeds up or forces increased conversion of cysteine to taurine, that may cause issues with glutathione since cysteines needed there...

 

[gaze]

that may be for a specific and beneficial purpose, like cholesterol doesnt convert to pregnenolone when hypo, but that doesnt mean simply throwing pregnenolone in there while hypo will fix things, the preg may go straight to cortisol as it seemed to do when i tried it.
the b vitamins may be able to help force the conversions, im not sure
there may be issues on either side, for instance if supplementing taurine spares b6 and cysteine, it may make an excess of those
supplementing only something like NAC, or only something like b6, may also cause an excess or deficiency in the corresponding one. supposedly the b vitamins excesses are just peed out, but maybe that in itself is still a process which drains something else from the body to excrete them. some sites say excess vitamin C supplementation leeches up zinc and calcium from the body since theyre involved in helping excrete it.
like if supplementing b6 speeds up or forces increased conversion of cysteine to taurine, that may cause issues with glutathione since cysteines needed there...

the highest b6 foods are all the high protein meats and fish. that's probably for a good reason. milk doesn't seem to have enough b6 for the conversion of its tryptophan, but maybe the meat has enough for its conversion of cysteine and tryptophan. the only problem with meat then would b the methionine, unless the high niacin content of meat prevents the conversion of tryptophan. i still think a very hypo person would react better to meat + cheese (without whey) then they would multiple glasses of milk. just based on the amino acids and the b6

 

[Dr. B]

the highest b6 foods are all the high protein meats and fish. that's probably for a good reason. milk doesn't seem to have enough b6 for the conversion of its tryptophan, but maybe the meat has enough for its conversion of cysteine and tryptophan. the only problem with meat then would b the methionine. i think a hypo person would react better to meat + cheese (without whey) then they would multiple glasses of milk. just based on the amino acids and the b6

milk is also lacking niacin isnt it. its low in b3, but the tryptophan makes up for it (if its true that consuming less niacin encourages conversion to it)
i dont know b6 is involved in tryptophan? it helps convert the cysteine to taurine.
doesnt cheese lack lots of the b vitamins while it actually has the casein protein, so lots of the aminos. the meat still has the arginine, possibly histidine right...
but i havent looked into it enough as far as what arginine does besides nitric oxide production

 

[gaze]

i dont know b6 is involved in tryptophan?

this is what ray said in his book nutrition for women in the 1970s. he may have changed his mind:

"Milk is a rich natural source of tryptophan. Since tryptophan promotes formation of serotonin which stimulates release of prolactin, and prolactin activates the formation of sebum (oil) by the skin, large amounts of milk could promote a tendency toward acne, when there is a deficiency of B6, thyroid, progesterone, etc."

 

[PeskyPeater]

Such theories, such gambling.

If you don't understand how the ropes of metabolism pull and push, I wouldn't try to mess with it.

Unless it's proven to help mitochondrial metabolism like this : R-α-lipoic acid + ALCAR + Biotin + niacinamide.

A Combination of Nutriments Improves Mitochondrial Biogenesis and Function in Skeletal Muscle of Type 2 Diabetic Goto–Kakizaki Rats​

..
We have defined a group of mitochondrial targeting antioxidants/metabolites as mitochondrial nutrients [8], [9], [18], i.e., nutrients which improve mitochondrial function and protect mitochondria from oxidative damage, including those that can 1) inhibit or prevent oxidant production in mitochondria; 2) scavenge and inactivate free radicals and reactive oxygen species; 3) repair mitochondrial damage and enhance antioxidant defenses by stimulating mitochondrial biogenesis and inducing phase-2 enzymes; and 4) act as cofactors/substrates to protect mitochondrial enzymes and/or stimulate enzyme activity. One good example of mitochondrial nutrients is R-α-lipoic acid (LA) [9], [19], [20], [21].

More recently, we have examined the effect of LA and acetyl-L-carnitine (ALC), as well as their combination, on mitochondrial biogenesis in 3T3-L1 adipocyte. We found that treatment with a combination of LA and ALC significantly improved mitochondrial function and increased mitochondrial biogenesis related transcription factors while the treatments with only LA and ALC alone at the same concentrations showed little effect [22]. From these results, we have concluded that the combination of mitochondrial targeting nutrients may complementarily promote mitochondrial synthesis and adipocyte metabolism and possibly, like thiazolidinedione drugs, prevent and treat insulin resistance in type 2 diabetes. In the present study, we investigated the effects of a combination of LA and ALC, with two other mitochondrial nutrients, nicotinamide and biotin, on improving glucose tolerance, insulin release, fatty acid metabolism, and mitochondrial biogenesis and function in the spontaneous diabetic GK rats. ..

 

[Dr. B]

this is what ray said in his book nutrition for women in the 1970s. he may have changed his mind:

interesting
its also involved in taurine synthesis
is it risky using milk/whey protein as your main source of protein then? unless supplementing b6?
now that i think of it i do seem to recall some posts on here mentioning b6 involved in tryptophan to niacin conversion

Such theories, such gambling.

If you don't understand the how the ropes of metabolism pull and push, I wouldn't try to mess with it.

Unless it's proven to help mitochondrial metabolism Like ALCAR + Biotin + niacinamide.

edit : find link

how do those help mitochondrial metabolism? ive heard negative things about ALCAR/carnitine... biotin is apparently good but can deplete pantothenic acid... niacinamide could potentially create tryptophan excess which then leads to serotonin excess?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

not sure,
some other websites say its also based on the bodys needs. like if dietary niacin/niacinamide is lacking, more tryptophan will be converted to it.
it may also be certain b vitamins or other nutrients in the milk, making it encourage the tryptophan towards niacin.

i dont know how essential Ray thinks shellfish are, im wary of using them because i dont want to cook them, and i think the ocean may be so toxic its not safe to use these things anymore, like the molecularly distilled fish oil may ironically be the safest seafood product you can consume these days. it probably has no toxins. i seemed to get pimples on the forehead and upper back, if i use just 500mg krill oil. is there really enough phosphatidylcholine (or astaxanthin) in those to cause that effect or is it some toxins in antarctic krill oil? when i tried molecularly distilled (alaskan pollock) fish oil, it didnt cause any sort of pimple effect, even from a gram a day.

anyway, the shellfish have lots of taurine. he said milk, cheese, liver also has it. but if youre avoiding shellfish, youre only gonna get like 200-400mg taurine from those other foods. but maybe milk and liver contain enough b6 and cysteine to where you could synthesize any additional taurine if needed?

i also wonder of the risks to beta alanine, there seem to be serious risks that can happen if you mess with glutathione production, which needs glycine, cysteine, glutamine. glutamines pretty easy to get, but cysteine/glycine are pretty scarce to begin with. so if youre using beta alanine, the body may be using its cysteine for taurine when it also needs some of it for glutathione. glycines needed for both creatine and glutathione, cysteine needed for both glutathione and taurine, so those are maybe some you dont want to mess with...

creatine could create or spare methionine, arginine, choline and also glycine... and that extra arginine could then go towards excess nitric oxide production? it may explain creatines pro erection effect, but also its side effects considering we should be limiting arginine and methionine to begin with?

i used 5g creatine and 4g beta alanine daily for around 7 years straight, so had a lot of time to observe the minute effects of each one... although I almost always used them together, but I can confirm beta alanine has the laxative effect and crazy dream effect.

niacinamide, or glycine/gelatin would make creatine more tolerable since they help excrete methyl groups. glycine only excretes excess methyl groups, whereas niacinamide depletes them indiscriminately ( i think thats what chris masterjohns video on them said). so the niacinamide or gelatin would help get rid of the excess methylation/methionine/choline from the creatine, but wouldnt take care of the excess arginine. creatine actually wouldnt even spare glycine considering the spared glycine would be used up in excreting the excess methionine/choline from creatine usage (unless your diet is low in those two to begin with)

any ideas on what arginine can convert to or what it does in the body besides making nitric oxide? does it also increase histamine?

niacinamide could potentially spare glycine, if it takes over the job of depleting excess methyl groups, then more glycine could be spared for glutathione and other uses.

Arginine is a source of ornithine, through the arginase enzyme. It's a part of the Urea Cycle, and without it, you can't turn ammonia into urea. In a study about cat nutrition, they talked about how, when you feed a cat a diet that contains all the aminoacids except for arginine, they develop hyperammonemia within hours of eating. These animals' gluconeogenic pathways are active all the time, even when eating carbs. Giving them just ornithine also worked to prevent excess ammonia build-up. Too much ornithine can increase polyamines though.

Arginine can be turned into glucose and ammonia, so that's another route for the excretion of excess.

The combination of creatine+ niacinamide is great, imo. Creatine requires a lot of methyl groups to be produced, but not everyone can produce as much creatine as they need in a day, even with an ample methyl pool. That would result in a lot of methyl groups with not enough creatine. If you lower the methyl groups with B3 and provide the creatine exogenously, then that will put you in a much better position.

 

[Dr. B]

Arginine is a source of ornithine, through the arginase enzyme. It's a part of the Urea Cycle, and without it, you can't turn ammonia into urea. In a study about cat nutrition, they talked about how, when you feed a cat a diet that contains all the aminoacids except for arginine, they develop hyperammonemia within hours of eating. These animals' gluconeogenic pathways are active all the time, even when eating carbs. Giving them just ornithine also worked to prevent excess ammonia build-up. Too much ornithine can increase polyamines though.

Arginine can be turned into glucose and ammonia, so that's another route for the excretion of excess.

The combination of creatine+ niacinamide is great, imo. Creatine requires a lot of methyl groups to be produced, but not everyone can produce as much creatine as they need in a day, even with an ample methyl pool. That would result in a lot of methyl groups with not enough creatine. If you lower the methyl groups with B3 and provide the creatine exogenously, then that will put you in a much better position.

thats interesting stuff, good to know, where did you find these specifics as to what arginine turns to? textbooks, or studying arginine on wikipedia etc and the urea cycle? have you done research regarding metabolic alkalosis/acidosis, carbonic anhydrase inhibitor usage, high dose thiamine and pomegranate juice etc?

does this also mean, if not supplementing methyl donors like creatine and betaine tmg, its better to limit the niacinamide supplementation? it could affect liver and methylation health too negatively...?

Peat mentioned cats high metabolic rate allowing them to tolerate pufa
what about their low calcium high phosphate intake. is that the same thing, good metabolism allowing its tolerance...? how do cats build up their bones?

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

thats interesting stuff, good to know, where did you find these specifics as to what arginine turns to? textbooks, or studying arginine on wikipedia etc and the urea cycle? have you done research regarding metabolic alkalosis/acidosis, carbonic anhydrase inhibitor usage, high dose thiamine and pomegranate juice etc?

does this also mean, if not supplementing methyl donors like creatine and betaine tmg, its better to limit the niacinamide supplementation? it could affect liver and methylation health too negatively...?

Peat mentioned cats high metabolic rate allowing them to tolerate pufa
what about their low calcium high phosphate intake. is that the same thing, good metabolism allowing its tolerance...? how do cats build up their bones?

For these non- controversial topics( glycolysis, urea cycle, etc.), I find wikipedia to be fine, but I like going to pubmed for extra info. For the info on arginine, I looked for glucogenic vs ketogenic aminoacids: Glucogenic amino acid - Wikipedia

I have read some stuff about acidosis/ alkalosis, mainly from Amazoniac's posts, but I wouldn't say I know much about that.

Yes, from what I've gathered, as well as personal experience, I think it's not a good idea to supplement a lot of niacinamide without creatine/ methyl donnors. I feel significantly better when I take my niacinamide with some creatine.

I didn't know Peat had said that cats. Nice. Cats sure are warm, and tend to be alert and curious( signs of intelligence).

I'm pretty sure he also said that birds have high metabolic rates. Interestingly, and corroborating what Ray said, the PUFA content of pigs and chickens raised commercially( so just regular, supermarket chicken and pork) differs substantially, even though they both are fed a high PUFA diet. Chicken fat is about 19% PUFA, while pork fat can reach numbers as high as 30-33% !

If there is enough CO2 being produced( from the high metabolism, I think the cats might be able to excrete enough phopshorus to somewhat balance the Ca: P ratio.

 

[Dr. B]

For these non- controversial topics( glycolysis, urea cycle, etc.), I find wikipedia to be fine, but I like going to pubmed for extra info. For the info on arginine, I looked for glucogenic vs ketogenic aminoacids: Glucogenic amino acid - Wikipedia

I have read some stuff about acidosis/ alkalosis, mainly from Amazoniac's posts, but I wouldn't say I know much about that.

Yes, from what I've gathered, as well as personal experience, I think it's not a good idea to supplement a lot of niacinamide without creatine/ methyl donnors. I feel significantly better when I take my niacinamide with some creatine.

I didn't know Peat had said that cats. Nice. Cats sure are warm, and tend to be alert and curious( signs of intelligence).

I'm pretty sure he also said that birds have high metabolic rates. Interestingly, and corroborating what Ray said, the PUFA content of pigs and chickens raised commercially( so just regular, supermarket chicken and pork) differs substantially, even though they both are fed a high PUFA diet. Chicken fat is about 19% PUFA, while pork fat can reach numbers as high as 30-33% !

If there is enough CO2 being produced( from the high metabolism, I think the cats might be able to excrete enough phopshorus to somewhat balance the Ca: P ratio.

Peats said fructose helps excrete phosphorus and retain calcium. hes said lactose helps absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients. but i dont think cats in nature eat much fructose or lactose? theyre carnivores right.
although ive seen videos of big cats in captivity and zoos, and regular housecats, and they do love milk, in one video there were all these goats and one cat, and the cat bumped his way through the goats to hog the milk bottle. i think the milk must have been goats or cows.

that link you posted, basically says any amino acid can be turned to glucose and some can even be turned to fat, or ketones?!

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Peats said fructose helps excrete phosphorus and retain calcium. hes said lactose helps absorption of calcium and probably other nutrients. but i dont think cats in nature eat much fructose or lactose? theyre carnivores right.
although ive seen videos of big cats in captivity and zoos, and regular housecats, and they do love milk, in one video there were all these goats and one cat, and the cat bumped his way through the goats to hog the milk bottle. i think the milk must have been goats or cows.

haha yeah , cats love milk. They only get lactose in nature when they're babies, otherwise they eat mostly protein and fat. If they're offered milk, they will drink it though, and I've already seen some cats who seem to like fruits.

From what Ray said about evolution, milk and fruit would be a dietary addition that would benefit cats, since it would have an anti- stress effect, helping to bring down cortisol, adrenalin, PTH, perhaps aldosterone( since fructose preserves sodium in the blood), etc.

that link you posted, basically says any amino acid can be turned to glucose and some can even be turned to fat, or ketones?!

Most can only be turned into glucose; a couple, only into acetyl CoA; and the rest, into both glucose or Acetyl CoA. It has to do with whether they get turned into acetyl CoA( ketogenic) or into substrates which can become glucose( gluconeogenic).