Severe Panic Attacks! Please Help

haidut

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Not to speak for Dave but just to add what I have noticed. In medical circles in my locale the view is that klonopin has less potential for abuse due to the longer half life compared to the older benzos. I don't personally know if this is correct it is just what I've repeatedly seen in practice.

Even if this were true, Klonopin is known for its guaranteed addictiveness. It is the one benzo that is pretty much impossible to stop taking once you are hooked. In addiction clinics they explicitly ask if a person is on Klonopin and if yes they will not try to "detox" the person off of it. Too risky for causing grand mal seizure.
 

Blossom

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It was probably a marketing strategy (lie) used to sell more of it when the drug was new.
 

lindsay

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I just recently developed panic attacks around 2 hours from rising due to a number of really idiotic things ooinciding.

It's really impacting my life, and I'm trying to control it.

I notice that I have no appetite and I'm not warm how I usually am.

If you don't mind my asking, how is your digestion and stomach doing? The only reason I ask is that I have only had one really bad panic attack in my entire life (which is surprising for me) - it happened to coincide with appendicitis...... Previously, smaller lesser panic attacks happened during stressful times and I used to have sports-induced asthma, but they were nothing in comparison to the hour long hyperventilating panic attack I had when I had an infected appendix. So I would keep an eye on that and note if you have any stomach pain and/or a fever when these panic attacks happen.
 

Rafe

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I also came down with unexpected anxiety a little after a year of peating. This anxiety was bizarre b/c it had a nightmarish quality to it. I was also having strange restless flexing in my large muscles at night. It was a disturbing development.

I reviewed what I was doing and the biggest possibility was that it was an endotoxemia, then serotonin. Sure enough, doxycycline worked wonders after 3 days. I took it in a couple of cycles around the winter solstice, but after 10 days off the symptoms came back. I had read threads about occasional, low-dose doxycycline, but I hadn't decided on a strategy that I liked. On another thread was this link

Curing Arthritis and Depression with Diet and Antibiotics - Perfect Health Diet | Perfect Health Diet

to a Paul Jaminet post on long-term doxycycline for arthritis and depression [2 cases described there]. I think there is a further link on that post for the specific protocols. I've been using the doxycycline 50mg 2x/day, every other day. This has really knocked down the bizarre symptoms, and no disruptive herxing. But the real progress is in the other things for endotoxin meantime. I am prepared to use this protocol medium- to long-term, along with carrot, coconut oil, maybe some AC.

Moreover, for me there was a kind of existential quality to it I'm thinking:

"Bad food and other stressors can degrade the whole system, producing functional rigidities similar to those resulting from a bad up-bringing, but if a person has a hint of the way things could be, the system can recover, sometimes with a change of diet, or climate, or of mental context-possibilities, or a missing hormone. If a person has a very rigid idea of how existence is supposed to be, the changed metabolism from taking thyroid, for example, making energy flow strongly, can seem as unpleasant as being in a foreign culture." -Raymond Peat

For me this was also a risk of losing my stress but not changing my environment. Strange land indeed.

Doxycycline. For anxiety and depression. That is so real.
 
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"Bad food and other stressors can degrade the whole system, producing functional rigidities similar to those resulting from a bad up-bringing, but if a person has a hint of the way things could be, the system can recover, sometimes with a change of diet, or climate, or of mental context-possibilities, or a missing hormone. If a person has a very rigid idea of how existence is supposed to be, the changed metabolism from taking thyroid, for example, making energy flow strongly, can seem as unpleasant as being in a foreign culture." -Raymond Peat


LOVE THIS QUOTE!!!
 

tara

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I don't know anything about the drugs you've been taking, so what I say is not targetted specifically to recovery from them.

I really appreciate that, Rob. The doctor just told me to take this as a lesson to "stop experimenting."
It would be possible to keep experimenting, but further from the extremes, and with less risk of severe consequences? :)

I'm eating about 1800 calories a day or less; I'm trying to bump it up, but it's difficult to do so without puking. L-theanine and pregnenolone has been helping a lot: anything that lowers cortisol.

Diet consists of milk, OJ, and coconut oil with plenty of sugar, but unfortunately my appetite needs to recover.
If this is the same food you were eating 9000 cals of up till recently, and you are now sick of it (literally), maybe consider trying some other foods and wider range? If I'd been living on milk sugar and coconut oil I think I'd be hanging out for fruit and veges, and eggs and maybe fish and meat, but your appetite might suggest other things. I'm wondering whether you've run yourself low in some of the small micronutrients, even if you've attended to the biggies? (I'd still go easy on the PUFA.)
 
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Went to the doctor, he told me to stop taking vitamins and prescribed me Klonopin (because benzos are far less harmful than niacinamide, obviously.)

Seriously, what's with these guys? I nibbled the edge of the pill at the smallest possible amount and it almost sent me into a stupor.

I have two girlfriends, both old acquaintances from waaay back, one was addicted to cocaine and the other to heroin (unfortunately a common element in the Seattle music scene). Both were prescribed Klonopin as part of their rehab/recovery program for addiction, this was back in the 1990's.....watching their multiple attempts to get off of the prescription drug Klonopin was absolutely BRUTAL, far worse than their original addictions. I was amazed....and to this very day both of these beautiful women are still f*cked up from that drug.

It's been known for years that Klonopin is super dangerous, so I gotta ask....WHY on earth are you taking it??? Aren't you studying to be a doc of some sort?o_O
 

DaveFoster

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He would say that.
the benzodiazepine is a hdac inhibitor,so is niacinamide. The benzo is too potent.

Other hdac inhibitor like phenibut is stronger than niacinamide but safer than klonopin. Maybe try phenibut and niacinamide for emergency relief.
Lysine might help also,k2 will help also.
I took 1 mg klonopin to kill a panic attack. These horror stories are scaring me.

Just out of curiosity, do you mind asking the doctor why the Klonopin instead of older and safer benzos? Klonopin is known as a "dirty" drug even among pharma industry veterans.
I didn't ask. I didn't want valium due to the excessively long half-life. I actually asked him for a non-benzo. Here he comes, "I'm going to give you a benzo anyway."

Not to speak for Dave but just to add what I have noticed. In medical circles in my locale the view is that klonopin has less potential for abuse due to the longer half life compared to the older benzos. I don't personally know if this is correct it is just what I've repeatedly seen in practice.

Even if this were true, Klonopin is known for its guaranteed addictiveness. It is the one benzo that is pretty much impossible to stop taking once you are hooked. In addiction clinics they explicitly ask if a person is on Klonopin and if yes they will not try to "detox" the person off of it. Too risky for causing grand mal seizure.
Oh sweet God. Seizures? Will one or two days be enough to trigger this?

If you don't mind my asking, how is your digestion and stomach doing? The only reason I ask is that I have only had one really bad panic attack in my entire life (which is surprising for me) - it happened to coincide with appendicitis...... Previously, smaller lesser panic attacks happened during stressful times and I used to have sports-induced asthma, but they were nothing in comparison to the hour long hyperventilating panic attack I had when I had an infected appendix. So I would keep an eye on that and note if you have any stomach pain and/or a fever when these panic attacks happen.
This is completely from clonidine. Digestion is fine.

I don't know anything about the drugs you've been taking, so what I say is not targetted specifically to recovery from them.


It would be possible to keep experimenting, but further from the extremes, and with less risk of severe consequences? :)


If this is the same food you were eating 9000 cals of up till recently, and you are now sick of it (literally), maybe consider trying some other foods and wider range? If I'd been living on milk sugar and coconut oil I think I'd be hanging out for fruit and veges, and eggs and maybe fish and meat, but your appetite might suggest other things. I'm wondering whether you've run yourself low in some of the small micronutrients, even if you've attended to the biggies? (I'd still go easy on the PUFA.)
I'm fine with my diet; it's just the clonidine rebound hypertension that killed my appetite.

I have two girlfriends, both old acquaintances from waaay back, one was addicted to cocaine and the other to heroin (unfortunately a common element in the Seattle music scene). Both were prescribed Klonopin as part of their rehab/recovery program for addiction, this was back in the 1990's.....watching their multiple attempts to get off of the prescription drug Klonopin was absolutely BRUTAL, far worse than their original addictions. I was amazed....and to this very day both of these beautiful women are still f*cked up from that drug.

It's been known for years that Klonopin is super dangerous, so I gotta ask....WHY on earth are you taking it??? Aren't you studying to be a doc of some sort?o_O
OH MY GOD. It's for 2-3 days tops, but I think I'm cutting this short.

Will dosing just once or twice have these seizure effects? Jesus.

40 HOUR HALF-LIFE. WHAT THE HELL.

I have some cyproheptadine on hand; I just need to know if it raises blood pressure or not.
 
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Drareg

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I took 1 mg klonopin to kill a panic attack. These horror stories are scaring me.

I didn't ask. I didn't want valium due to the excessively long half-life. I actually asked him for a non-benzo. Here he comes, "I'm going to give you a benzo anyway."



Oh sweet God. Seizures? Will one or two days be enough to trigger this?

This is completely from clonidine. Digestion is fine.

I'm fine with my diet; it's just the clonidine rebound hypertension that killed my appetite.

OH MY GOD. It's for 2-3 days tops, but I think I'm cutting this short.

Will dosing just once or twice have these seizure effects? Jesus.

40 HOUR HALF-LIFE. WHAT THE HELL.

I have some cyproheptadine on hand; I just need to know if it raises blood pressure or not.

Be careful Dave. This sounds terrible, why would he give you that? People probably have different reactions.
Can pregnenolone protect against seizure?
Aspirin should stop the panic attack,inflammation etc. Niacinamide will lower blood pressure.
Keep it simple. You might have to ride the withdrawals with all the things you have tried. Take a few days off study/work.
 

Blossom

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@DaveFoster my personal experience is that I took klonopin off and on for several years until January 2009. I never had any seizures or withdrawal. While I don't believe benzodiazepines are optimal for health especially long-term I would certainly not stress yourself out even further by worrying that something horrible is going to happen from only a couple doses of the drug. I'm also sorry that your doctor did not honor your wish to avoid benzos- that is a huge problem and I hope you can find a new doctor that you can trust.

For me the take home lesson would be to tame any experimentation to the point that you are not in danger of needing medical intervention to deal with the consequences of an experiment gone wrong. You are young, resilient and knowledgeable so I believe you will make it through this and be a little wiser for it. If you do decide to pursue medicine just remember how important it is to listen to the patient.

I hope this doesn't sound too preachy or motherly and I truly do hope you get to feeling better soon.
 

papaya

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I also came down with unexpected anxiety a little after a year of peating. This anxiety was bizarre b/c it had a nightmarish quality to it. I was also having strange restless flexing in my large muscles at night. It was a disturbing development.

I reviewed what I was doing and the biggest possibility was that it was an endotoxemia, then serotonin. Sure enough, doxycycline worked wonders after 3 days. I took it in a couple of cycles around the winter solstice, but after 10 days off the symptoms came back. I had read threads about occasional, low-dose doxycycline, but I hadn't decided on a strategy that I liked. On another thread was this link

Curing Arthritis and Depression with Diet and Antibiotics - Perfect Health Diet | Perfect Health Diet

to a Paul Jaminet post on long-term doxycycline for arthritis and depression [2 cases described there]. I think there is a further link on that post for the specific protocols. I've been using the doxycycline 50mg 2x/day, every other day. This has really knocked down the bizarre symptoms, and no disruptive herxing. But the real progress is in the other things for endotoxin meantime. I am prepared to use this protocol medium- to long-term, along with carrot, coconut oil, maybe some AC.

Moreover, for me there was a kind of existential quality to it I'm thinking:

"Bad food and other stressors can degrade the whole system, producing functional rigidities similar to those resulting from a bad up-bringing, but if a person has a hint of the way things could be, the system can recover, sometimes with a change of diet, or climate, or of mental context-possibilities, or a missing hormone. If a person has a very rigid idea of how existence is supposed to be, the changed metabolism from taking thyroid, for example, making energy flow strongly, can seem as unpleasant as being in a foreign culture." -Raymond Peat

For me this was also a risk of losing my stress but not changing my environment. Strange land indeed.

Doxycycline. For anxiety and depression. That is so real.

how do u cycle & what type of doxycycline do u use? i googled and it says that doxycycline causes depression.
 
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I think with all the substances you seem to have, you could conquer any addiction. I would suspect serotonin antagonists being especially effective, naltrexone and cypro come to mind. Probably best to start with low doses.
 

tara

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It's been known for years that Klonopin is super dangerous, so I gotta ask....WHY on earth are you taking it???
Maybe go easy on the drugs and supplements etc and take up sky-diving for lower risk thrills? :)
 

DaveFoster

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@DaveFoster my personal experience is that I took klonopin off and on for several years until January 2009. I never had any seizures or withdrawal. While I don't believe benzodiazepines are optimal for health especially long-term I would certainly not stress yourself out even further by worrying that something horrible is going to happen from only a couple doses of the drug. I'm also sorry that your doctor did not honor your wish to avoid benzos- that is a huge problem and I hope you can find a new doctor that you can trust.

For me the take home lesson would be to tame any experimentation to the point that you are not in danger of needing medical intervention to deal with the consequences of an experiment gone wrong. You are young, resilient and knowledgeable so I believe you will make it through this and be a little wiser for it. If you do decide to pursue medicine just remember how important it is to listen to the patient.

I hope this doesn't sound too preachy or motherly and I truly do hope you get to feeling better soon.
That really puts my mind at ease, Blossom. I talked to one of the doctor's assistant; she seemed very knowledgeable. She said that I shouldn't need this for more than two or so days, and I'll very soon be back to baseline.

She said that the risk of seizures is so unlikely that it's not worth considering. If I was on the drug for a longer period of time, then it might be something to worry about.
 

Blossom

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That really puts my mind at ease, Blossom. I talked to one of the doctor's assistant; she seemed very knowledgeable. She said that I shouldn't need this for more than two or so days, and I'll very soon be back to baseline.
Oh great Dave, I'm so glad to hear it! Thank goodness. Please keep us updated.:)
 

DaveFoster

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Maybe go easy on the drugs and supplements etc and take up sky-diving for lower risk thrills? :)
Hmmm... Sky-diving WHILE on drugs. You're brilliant, tara.
 

docall18

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One thing you should try is P5p b6. It potently lowers adrenaline, which is a big player in panic attacks.

It also reduces prolactin and cortisol.
 

DaveFoster

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One thing you should try is P5p b6. It potently lowers adrenaline, which is a big player in panic attacks.

It also reduces prolactin and cortisol.
P5P actually helps tremendously. I take 50 mg in the morning and it diminishes my panic attack by about 50%.

I don't want to take any more than that though.
 

Rafe

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@papaya
Doxycycline: I use Doxrid in 100mg tabs that are scored. One case that Jaminet reports is dox for arthritis, 50mg 2 X/day Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for 2 years. [I'm using this schedule.] Since long-term antibiotic use is uncommon, and would get a lot of criticism from microbiome bloggers, nobody thinks about using it this way even though docs give it generously along with prednisone for colds and sinus infections. Surely there are antibiotics you would not want to use for long-term. Regarding depression, on the Jaminet post, there is a discussion about backround, latent infections that cross the BBB if health is bad.

Someone early in this thread mentioned latent infections as a possible cause of unusual anxiety that is revealed as health gets better. I would never have thought I could have mild endotoxemia until I fixed other problems and could see straight.

Cycling dox: I don't expect to go off it for several months. Then I expect to stop for at least 10 days to see how my gut is doing without it, and spend that time eating carrots and coconut oil. I imagine that I'd eventually graduate to the once-in-a-while dose plan.

Doxycycline and depression: I suppose if you had no background infections there would be risks. I have experienced nothing but that "I feel like a better version of me" sensation. I can hardly believe that a cheap antibiotic could do this. But it makes sense if its toxemia. We've made depression and anxiety into both an existential crisis produced by a weak psyche and then also said it's a chemical deficiency, but we don't accept that it is an environmental hazard that is a side-effect of overwork and lack of support. That's completely straightforward.

Doesn't Ray Peat say this: "I tell people to do ____ for ____, but they just don't believe me."

Experimenting with supplements: In my experience I wanted to build a knowledge base about how I thought I'd react, so I went extremely slowly. This gives confidence, allows you to predict, and is less risky, in my view. I didn't just want to say I rejected the medical establishment and then be anxious about when I'd need it. I wanted to be able to do it. It takes so much patience, but it's worth it. Thanks to this forum, you can let off steam.

Klonopin: Some anxiety is no joke. And bizarre symptoms can make it hard to think. On a lighter note, if you want to feel trapped and learn an inhuman degree of patience, then go for Klonopin first. Docs use the benzos with shorter half-lives to wean people off clonazepam. Besides, after, um, a decade it just doesn't work anymore. For a while it was part of a trinity of drugs being given as standard care for perimenopause: BCP, a benzo, and an anti-depressant. Sometimes a z-drug is added for sleep. It's no wonder it takes time to get things in order.
 

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