Serotonin Removal?

narouz

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dsohei said:
I disagree. There is more at play. I can do all the normal peat ***t and still have excess serotonin. I can take 20mcg of LSD dnd be fine for a few days.

Dsohei, My Friends:
Here at the "Ray Peat Forum"
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where no man
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milushq

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"Biochemically derived from tryptophan, serotonin is primarily found in the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, platelets, and in the central nervous system (CNS) of animals including humans.
Serotonin is mainly metabolized to 5-HIAA, chiefly by the liver. Metabolism involves first oxidation by monoamine oxidase to the corresponding aldehyde. This is followed by oxidation by aldehyde dehydrogenase to 5-HIAA, the indole acetic acid derivative. The latter is then excreted by the kidneys. One type of tumor, called carcinoid, sometimes secretes large amounts of serotonin into the blood, which causes various forms of the carcinoid syndrome of flushing, diarrhea, and heart problems."
Wikipedia
Have you heard about carcinoid?
But even Wikipedia says serotonin derived from tryptophan, so for now it may be helpful just to avoid tryptophan reach foods, like eat gelatin or bone broth instead of muscle meat, cheese(with whey removed) instead of milk, egg yolks, but not whites and so on...
 

narouz

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from "Intuitive Knowledge"

from Intuitive Knowledge by Ray Peat
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/in ... edge.shtml

"Natalya Bekhtereva was exploring alternative treatments for epilepsy, implanting fine wire electrodes into the abnormal parts of the brain, and surrounding areas, to discover the nature of the electrical events that were associated with the seizures. In the process, she discovered that meanings and intentions corresponded to particular electrical patterns. She found that giving certain kinds of stimulation to healthy parts of the brain could stimulate the development of ways of functioning that by-passed the seizure-prone parts of the brain. Extending this, seeing that creating new patterns of nervous activity could overcome sickness, she proposed that creativity, the activation of the brain in new ways, would itself be therapeutic. Some people, such as Stanislav Grof, advocated the therapeutic use of LSD with a rationale that seems similar, for example to overcome chronic pain by changing its meaning, putting it into a different relation to the rest of experience. "In general, psychedelic therapy seems to be most effective in the treatment of alcoholics, narcotic-drug addicts, depressed patients, and individuals dying of cancer." 2 Since LSD shifts the balance away from serotonin dominance toward dopamine dominance, its effect can be to erase the habits of learned helplessness. Stress and pain also leave their residue in the endorphin system, and the anti-opiates such as naloxone can relieve depression, improve memory, and restore disturbed pituitary functions, for example leading to the restoration of menstrual rhythms interrupted by stress or aging. The amazing speed with which young animals can solve problems is undoubtedly a reflection of their metabolic vigor, and it is probably partly because they haven't yet experienced the paralysis that can result from repeated or prolonged and inescapable stress. Many of the factors responsible for the metabolic intensity of youth can be used therapeutically, even after dullness has developed. The right balance of amino acids and carbohydrates, and the avoidance of the antimetabolic unsaturated fatty acids, can make a great difference in mental functioning, even though we still don't know what the ideal formulas are.

"While chemical -- nutritional -- hormonal approaches can help to restore creativity, the work of people like Bekhtereva shows that the exercise of creativity can help to restore biochemical and physiological systems to more normal functioning. Learning new general principles or new languages can be creatively restorative."
 

narouz

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from "Serotonin, Depression, and Aggression"

from Serotonin, Depression, and Aggression: The Problem of Brain Energy by Ray Peat
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/serotonin-depression-aggression.shtml

"Serotonin research is relatively new, but it rivals estrogen research for the level of incompetence and apparent fraudulent intent that can be found in professional publications.

"This is partly because of the involvement of the drug industry, but the U.S. government also played a role in setting a pattern of confused and perverse interpretation of serotonin physiology, by its policy of denigrating and incriminating LSD, a powerful serotonin (approximate) antagonist, by any means possible, for example claiming that it causes genetic damage and provokes homicidal or suicidal violence. The issue of genetic damage was already disproved in the 1960s, but this was never publicly acknowledged by the National Institutes of Mental Health or other government agency. The government’s irresponsible actions helped to create the drug culture, in which health warnings about drugs were widely disregarded, because the government had been caught in blatant fraud. In more recent years, government warnings about tryptophan supplements have been widely dismissed, because the government has so often lied. Even when the public health agencies try to do something right, they fail, because they have done so much wrong.

"In animal studies LSD, and other anti-serotonin agents, increase playfulness and accelerate learning, and cause behavioral impairment only at very high doses. While reserpine was used medically for several decades, and was eventually found to have harmful side effects, medical research in LSD was stopped before its actual side effects could be discovered. The misrepresentations about LSD, as a powerful antiserotonin agent, allowed a set of cultural stereotypes about serotonin to be established. Misconceptions about serotonin and melatonin and tryptophan, which are metabolically interrelated, have persisted, and it seems that the drug industry has exploited these mistakes to promote the “new generation” of psychoactive drugs as activators of serotonin responses. If LSD makes people go berserk, as the government claimed, then a product to amplify the effects of serotonin should make people sane.

[...]

"Research on LSD and its derivatives led to drugs such as bromocriptine, which oppose the effects of histamine and estrogen. Some of bromocriptine’s effects are clearly antagonistic to serotonin, though bromocriptine is usually called a “dopamine agonist”; dopamine is pretty generally a serotonin antagonist. Methysergide, a related drug with antiserotonin activity, is effective in protecting the brain from the effects of strokes. But there is a general disinclination to understand the broad biological meaning of these effects.

"I think the corrupt campaign against LSD played a large role in this: If the therapeutic value of LSD and related drugs (e.g., methysergide) with expired patents,*note2 used as antiserotonin agents, became widely known, the existing system of power and profit would be threatened. The war on drugs has always had its ulterior motives,including justifying domestic and foreign interventions in issues that have nothing to do with drugs. And in the case of the serotonin/antiserotonin mythology, this “war” has been rewarding to the drug industry--Lilly makes over $2 billion annually on Prozac. Each suicide caused by Prozac would appear to be balanced by several hundred thousand dollars earned by the corporation. If the war on drugs were serious, this would be a good place to start. And in weighing what corporate punishments might be appropriate, this corporation’s financial support for universal capital punishment should be taken into account. Many experiments have shown that estrogen is very important for aggressive behavior in animals, and estrogen promotes serotonin’s actions. Some research shows that increased serotonin is associated with certain types of increased aggressiveness, and antiserotonin agents decrease aggresiveness (Ieni, et al., 1985; McMillen, et al., 1987) but the clearest research has to do with the crucial role of serotonin in learned helplessness. Learned helplessness is a biological condition that is created by inescapable stress. In this state, animals that would normally swim for hours will stop swimming after a few minutes and allow themselves to drown. They simply don’t have enough mental or physical energy to overcome challenges.

"In learned helplessness, the level of serotonin is high, and an excess of serotonin helps to create the state of learned helplessness.

[...]

"Many of the symptoms produced by excess serotonin are also the symptoms of hypothyroidism. Thyroid, progesterone, and high quality protein nutrition are central to protection against the serotonin syndromes. (Progesterone, like LSD, can inhibit the firing of serotonergic nerves, but an overdose, unlike LSD, never produces hallucinations.)"
 
OP
D

dsohei

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What's a good range of dosing for progesterone, progest-e for a male, 32 yrs, 6 ft, 185 lbs?
 

Yves

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Great topic! When I tested my Serotonin recently it was 140 (range is 11-200 and ideal is <25). Before I got tested Peat had strongly suggested my lifelong migraines were caused my excess serotonin.

I feel salt, anti-parasitic/biotic/fungal drugs, turmeric, and recently aspirin lowers my interpretation of the effects of serotonin (as enumerated by dsohei). If I cut out all muscle meat and protein and only eat gelatin, fruit, juice, some lettuce/spinach (for vit. k), a lot of coffee, white rice, coconut oil, mineral supplements and tons of salt I get good effects.

I am interested in trying LSD, or the migraine drug Methysergide which is an analog of LSD. Unfortunately I have not found a source for either (please message me if you have ideas). I have experimented with bromocriptine and cabergoline, but felt it was the wrong approach and had unpleasant side effects even at low dose. I think suppressing serotonin is better than trying to drown it out with dopamine agonists.

There was talk on the old laproline blog of using mushrooms (Psilocybin) to counter serotonin, but I have not looked into it in detail. Unfortunately the blog is invitation only now and I have not gotten one.
 

charlie

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charlie

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nwo2012 said:
bradley said:
We need to get our hands on this stuff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenclonine

and the quote from Peat:

More than 20 years ago, a chemical (p-chlorophenylalanine) that inhibits serotonin synthesis was found to tremendously increase libido.

http://www.mpbio.com/US/Pages/Search.aspx?k=05205234
nwo2012, have you tried this? My libido is in the toilet, and, I am pretty sure I am having excess serotonin problems. Wonder if there can be any bad effects from taking this??
 

bradley

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They will only sell to you if you are pre-approved by them as a registered chemist.

It seems like very potent stuff, and I'm not sure a human dose has been established. May want to ask Peat first ;-)

nwo2012, have you tried this? My libido is in the toilet, and, I am pretty sure I am having excess serotonin problems. Wonder if there can be any bad effects from taking this??
 

charlie

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Bummer. :doh
 

kiran

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The real problem is that we're ahead of the curve here.

There isn't a market for this stuff yet. What we need to do is convince a few bodybuilders of the utility of this stuff, and no doubt someone will start selling it at a more reasonable price.
 

kiran

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years ago, libido problems used to be treated with an inhbitor of serotonin synthesis called p-chlorophenylalanine (either alone of in combo with MAOIs). The results reported seemed impressive. there must have been toxicity issues with this that resulted in its cessation

From Patrick Arnold, he's pretty famous in bodybuilding circles for prohormones and such: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthrea ... ost3934969
 

nwo2012

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kiran said:
The real problem is that we're ahead of the curve here.

There isn't a market for this stuff yet. What we need to do is convince a few bodybuilders of the utility of this stuff, and no doubt someone will start selling it at a more reasonable price.

lol. Yes BBs are a good way to get this going. lol.
 

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