Serotonin Causes Autism; Blocking It May Treat Autism

[5magicbeans]

post 102183 Once again, a testament to Ray's brilliance in clearly explaining the links between elevated serotonin in the brain and conditions like autism. Other scientists have also worked on the serotonin-autism hypothesis and as a result there has been a small human study with autism that found significant reduction in symptoms from low dose cyproheptadine. Unfortunately, the dose used in that study was rather small, so the effects could have been even more dramatic with the proper dose.
”

What would be the "proper dose"?

 

[haidut]

post 117372

post 102183 Once again, a testament to Ray's brilliance in clearly explaining the links between elevated serotonin in the brain and conditions like autism. Other scientists have also worked on the serotonin-autism hypothesis and as a result there has been a small human study with autism that found significant reduction in symptoms from low dose cyproheptadine. Unfortunately, the dose used in that study was rather small, so the effects could have been even more dramatic with the proper dose.
”

What would be the "proper dose"?

The highest dose the human study used was 0.2mg/kg and the study only lasted 8 weeks. At this dose, most children consumed less then 10mg cyproheptadine daily while the animal studies show a human equivalent dose of 30mg+ daily. Also, even the animal trials lasted 6 months, so the 2 month human trial is a joke in comparison. I think 16mg+ for 12 months should show very strong autism reversing effects in humans assuming there is no other neurological pathology.
Just my 2c.

 

[Seeweed65]

Hi Haidut,

If there is a Link between serotonin and autism Do you think l lysine could have a use in the treatment of autism as I'm sure i have read some of your post stating it lowered serotonin in the gut and maybe even the brain?

 

[haidut]

Hi Haidut,

If there is a Link between serotonin and autism Do you think l lysine could have a use in the treatment of autism as I'm sure i have read some of your post stating it lowered serotonin in the gut and maybe even the brain?

I think theanine would be a more appropriate approach as it lowers serotonin synthesis AND increases dopamine synthesis. Maybe a combination of lysine/theanine can be tried for optimal effect? Human doses for neurological conditions seem to be in the 250mg - 400mg range daily.
Add-on Pregnenolone with L-Theanine to Antipsychotic Therapy Relieves Negative and Anxiety Symptoms of Schizophrenia: An 8-week, randomized, double... - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of L-theanine on glutamatergic function in patients with schizophrenia. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[tca300]

I think theanine would be a more appropriate approach as it lowers serotonin synthesis AND increases dopamine synthesis. Maybe a combination of lysine/theanine can be tried for optimal effect? Human doses for neurological conditions seem to be in the 250mg - 400mg range daily.
Add-on Pregnenolone with L-Theanine to Antipsychotic Therapy Relieves Negative and Anxiety Symptoms of Schizophrenia: An 8-week, randomized, double... - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of L-theanine on glutamatergic function in patients with schizophrenia. - PubMed - NCBI

Do you think taking theanine everyday would indefinitely help raise dopamine and lower serotonin? Or would the body adapt after a while back down to base level after continued use? I'm worried if I take it cronically, then when I'm not taking it I will have lower than normal dopamine.

 

[haidut]

Do you think taking theanine everyday would indefinitely help raise dopamine and lower serotonin? Or would the body adapt after a while back down to base level after continued use? I'm worried if I take it cronically, then when I'm not taking it I will have lower than normal dopamine.

Millions of people drink tea their whole lives with no ill effect on dopamine. I guess the doses of theanine in tea are pretty low so it is not a good example, but human trials with long term administration are lacking. The ones that did last a few months did not find any withdrawal/rebound effect.

 

[tca300]

Millions of people drink tea their whole lives with no ill effect on dopamine. I guess the doses of theanine in tea are pretty low so it is not a good example, but human trials with long term administration are lacking. The ones that did last a few months did not find any withdrawal/rebound effect.

Ok! Thank you very much

 

[elbatero]

Hi everyone --- first post here and I would love to contribute more, perhaps in the near future after things settle down some more for me. I do check in here on the forums as people are incredibly helpful with great insight into things. Cutting edge doesn't quite describe it, more like transcendent and revolutionary.

Anyhow, doing some research for some classes, went down a rabbit hole and found some interesting research relative to the serotonin-autism hypothesis. There's certainly more, but these piqued my interest.
Dystrophic serotonin axons in postmortem brains from young autism patients. - PubMed - NCBI
Increased serotonin axons (immunoreactive to 5-HT transporter) in postmortem brains from young autism donors. - PubMed - NCBI
[Metabolism of serotonin in autism in children]. - PubMed - NCBI

An author who has been studying this a good bit, Efrain Azmitia, http://www.med.nyu.edu/biosketch/eca1, wrote an interesting piece relative to an evolutionary perspective on serotonin, and it's worth a read if anyone is interested and has access. Being enrolled in university now, it's a huge bonus to look up studies beyond abstracts. Now with a different look on serotonin, I am able to see things quite differently and tease out different meanings in my evolving understanding on things, as I learn more and more. I've tried to see elsewhere here on the forums to see if this has been mentioned, so I apologize if there is redundancy. It's a great read for those of us with more philosophical leanings ------ CHAPTER 1.1 - Evolution of Serotonin: Sunlight to Suicide
Have a great evening everyone!

 

[Regina]

A little note on my experience with cyproheptadine with regards to autism:

While I was sleeping, I thought of the oddity of randomly exposing facts about myself and my ideas without any precedent in conversation. It seems that autism prompts this kind of outwardly expressive behavior for no reason whatsoever (which is a social disadvantage if anything, as it reduces the scarcity of your value in contributing to the conversation.)

To understand this, just imagine a person who says the most monumentally central and important things about his or her self within the first few moments of a conversation (relating to his or her values/morals/religious beliefs/political beliefs/social strategy). It would be akin to a thief walking up to a bystander and saying, "I like to steal things, so make sure to hide your stuff from me." The realization of the oddness behind this kind of behavior does not really occur to me normally, but cyproheptadine changes this.

Holy moly, I need cyproheptadine.
It's not like I was verbose with anyone tonight at a party. But I just immediately blurted out the benefits vitamin K2 or some other ***t totally inappropriate to the expected conversation flow.
But I thought serotonin is inhibitory.
My natural character is to be mostly quiet but completely unguarded and vulnerable. I just want the person to say what they need and I think, 'okay let me try to get that for you or help you figure that out.' I don't know what other function I am supposed to have.
Social pressure is just painful for this reason.

 

[Constatine]

Holy moly, I need cyproheptadine.
It's not like I was verbose with anyone tonight at a party. But I just immediately blurted out the benefits vitamin K2 or some other ***t totally inappropriate to the expected conversation flow.
But I thought serotonin is inhibitory.
My natural character is to be mostly quiet but completely unguarded and vulnerable. I just want the person to say what they need and I think, 'okay let me try to get that for you or help you figure that out.' I don't know what other function I am supposed to have.
Social pressure is just painful for this reason.

LOL us obsessive ray peaters always talking about benefits of k2. That's how I start conversations with girls: "you want to know the benefits of vitamin k2?" :). Sarcasm aside I have been in situations where I just want to talk about health or intellectual topics but the situation doesn't call for it. Ever since keeping serotonin low however it seems easier to just carelessly have meaningful conversations.

 

[Regina]

LOL us obsessive ray peaters always talking about benefits of k2. That's how I start conversations with girls: "you want to know the benefits of vitamin k2?" :). Sarcasm aside I have been in situations where I just want to talk about health or intellectual topics but the situation doesn't call for it. Ever since keeping serotonin low however it seems easier to just carelessly have meaningful conversations.

Okay. I'm still a bit confused.
I thought serotonin was walls up.
I'm walls down person (the introverted version) but suffer the slings and arrows. I just start verbalizing my interior world and look like a martian.

 

[Constatine]

Okay. I'm still a bit confused.
I thought serotonin was walls up.
I'm walls down person (the introverted version) but suffer the slings and arrows. I just start verbalizing my interior world and look like a martian.

I don't really think serotonin is walls up or walls down. It is an inhibitory neurotransmitter but it seems to inhibit awareness and impulses more than anything else. It is highly involved in avoidance behavior (high serotonin that is). Low serotonin might help keep you true to the conversation just through increased situation awareness.

 

[Regina]

I don't really think serotonin is walls up or walls down. It is an inhibitory neurotransmitter but it seems to inhibit awareness and impulses more than anything else. It is highly involved in avoidance behavior (high serotonin that is). Low serotonin might help keep you true to the conversation just through increased situation awareness.

Thx for chiming in Constatine. Definitely aikido increases situational awareness. If you are not 100% connected to only the reality that is right there in each passing moment, then you'll be clocked. But even then, it only works for me if I've done the technique a zillion times before. So, largely operating off of pre-conceived notions. If a variation is put on the technique or it's an entirely a technique I haven't seen before, I am like an uncoordinated martian. In conversation, I am a martian. Conversation is just like with new aikido techniques, I think "duh-oh!" a few minutes later. "Why did I say that? It's so stupid." or "I just had to step back. Why am I such a spaz?"
I'll try to observe it next week with serotonin in mind.

 

[agnostic]

Today, another study came out that supports the role of serotonin in autism:

Saudi Med J. 2018 May;39(5):487-494. doi: 10.15537/smj.2018.5.21751.
Serotonin and serotonin transporter levels in autistic children.
Abdulamir HA1, Abdul-Rasheed OF, Abdulghani EA.
Author information

Abstract
OBJECTIVES:
To assess the possible correlation between serotonin and serotonin transporter (SERT) with the autism severity and investigate the association between these parameters in autistic children to assess their possible role for diagnosis of autism severity.

METHODS:
A comparative cross-sectional study was carried out in the Chemistry and Biochemistry Department, College of Medicine, Al-Nahrain University, Baghdad, Iraq while the samples were taken from 60 male autistic children recruited to the Department of Pediatrics at Al-Sader Hospital, Baghdad, Iraq between November 2014 amd April 2015. Levels of serotonin and serotonin transporters (SERT) were determined in 60 male autistic Iraqi patients classified into mild, moderate and severe (20 for each). These levels were compared with those of 26 healthy control children. Results: Levels of serotonin and SERT were significantly increased in autistic children than that of gender and age-matched controls. Serotonin levels were 80.63± 21.83 ng/ml in mild, 100.39±23.07 ng/ml moderate, and 188.7±31.72 ng/ml severe autistic patients. Serotonin transporter levels were 10.13±4.51 ng/ml in mild, 13.15±4.71 ng/ml moderate, and 16.32±6.7 ng/ml in severe autistic patients. The increase of both serotonin and SERT levels were associated with severity of autism. Receiver operating characteristic (ROC) analysis can be used for diagnostic and prognostic purposes.

CONCLUSIONS:
High serotonin and SERT levels may indicate that these biomarkers have a role in the autism pathogenesis and support the possibility of using serotonin and SERT to diagnose autism severity.

PMID:

29738009

DOI:

10.15537/smj.2018.5.21751

 

[benaoao]

I think that what was discussed in those topic applies to most brain "conditions" like autism, and evidently depression, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's etc.

Serotonin/endotoxin/PUFA As Primary Causes Of Depression And Diabetes; Can Be Easily Blocked

and

Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

I used to think "sugar" would be an issue but there are enough studies showing carbs reduce inflammation in insulin sensitive individuals (who are a minority of the population these days). So it turns out it's about serotonin. My understanding is that a meal that consists only of carbs may raise serotonin a lot.

I was watching an episode of Marketplace yesterday (from Canada's CBC) and the way industrials trick consumers into eating produce and animal food beyond the Best Before date is revolting. Major bacterial disruption ahead. Mycotoxins (from mold) increase sensitivity to endotoxins.



My GF showed me a Netflix documentary "the magic pill" which is mostly keto nonsense, it's interesting how a strictly 100% whole foods diet seemed to reverse autism in one kid.

 

[rei]

I don't get why the meat counters are still a thing. Why on earth would you have seafood and meat sit in open air the whole day, allowing flies and dust contaminate it? The package with a protective atmosphere is vastly superior.

 

[Akhdan]

The highest dose the human study used was 0.2mg/kg and the study only lasted 8 weeks. At this dose, most children consumed less then 10mg cyproheptadine daily while the animal studies show a human equivalent dose of 30mg+ daily. Also, even the animal trials lasted 6 months, so the 2 month human trial is a joke in comparison. I think 16mg+ for 12 months should show very strong autism reversing effects in humans assuming there is no other neurological pathology.
Just my 2c.

So what should be an ideal dose ?

 

[ddjd]

https://x.com/bambkb/status/1702234599173104047?s=20