Self-reported Health Much Better Predictor Than "objective" Tests

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,787
Location
USA / Europe
I like this study for a number of reasons. First, it validates the idea that the patient knows quite well when something is plaguing them despite the current approach to ignore completely self-reported symptoms. Second, it confirms the connection between stress and inflammation, and viral diseases which Ray has talked about so many times before. In a nutshell, stress increases inflammation and activates endogenous viruses, which then contribute to a whole host of pathologies related to latent infections and chronic inflammation (which is pretty much all known diseases out there).

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/im ... ency.shtml
"...Endogenous retroviruses are activated by toxins known to be associated with immunodeficiency. Everyone has endogenous retroviruses. The antibodies which are used to diagnose "HIV" infection can, in the demonstrated absence of that virus, be produced in connection with lupus, Sjogren's syndrome, and arthritis. These autoimmune conditions are promoted by estrogen."

"...Besides activating the cells to produce massive amounts of the shock proteins, stress can also activate the so-called hormone receptors, such as estrogen receptors, even in the absence of the hormones. Stress also activates the endonucleases, which cut sections out of the DNA molecules, and activates mobile genetic elements, producing genetic instability. Like cortisol and estrogen, stress itself activates integrated retroviruses. The "endogenous retroviruses" make up nearly 10% of the human genome, and many of them locate themselves in regulatory sites in the chromosomes."

When I saw this study, I immediately remembered the posts from @Blossom and @messtafarian who both said that when they were under a lot of stress and felt at their worst their viral counts were off the charts. Well, this study found the same even though they only looked at herpes reactivation. But make no mistake, viruses like EBV, JCV, HIV, polio, even conditions like ALS are all driven by the same cascade of stress -> inflammation -> cortisol -> estrogen -> suppressed immunity -> disease.

Stress May Be The Primary Cause Of Als

Here are some relevant excerpts from the article:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016301871
Self-rated health worth doctors’ attention

"...“A couple of years ago there was a boom of work in psychology and medicine about what we call patient-reported outcomes, the idea that what patients actually feel like and say they feel like seems to be more prognostic of morbidity and mortality than all the cholesterol ratings and blood tests we get from doctors’ offices,” Fagundes said. “That was an odd finding,” he said. “You would think that objective markers like blood pressure would be more accurate. The way people generally report how they feel is more often linked to a future disease or mortality than what the doctor accesses."

"...“Herpesvirus activity is a very good functional marker of cellular immunity, because almost everybody has been exposed to one type of the virus or another,” Fagundes said. “It doesn’t mean you’re sick; it’s probably been dormant in your cells for most of your life. But because it reactivates at a cellular level and prompts the immune system to fight it, it becomes a great marker of how the system is working. “You can imagine that when the immune system’s fighting something, you get more inflammation throughout the body, and inflammation contributes to disease. That’s it in a nutshell,” he said. Previous studies by Fagundes and others demonstrated the link between herpesvirus activation and inflammation. While patients may not be aware of active herpesviruses or inflammation, the researchers suspected a mechanism stronger than mere instinct was responsible for their expressions of discomfort. “We found that poor self-rated health was associated with more reactivation of these latent herpesviruses, which was associated with higher inflammation, and we know those two things are associated with morbidity and mortality, as well as some cancers, type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease,” Murdock said."

"...The researchers noted that primary care physicians are highly unlikely to check for herpesvirus activity or inflammation. “It’s too hard an assay to do clinically and takes too much time,” Fagundes said. “They look at things like white blood cell counts in cancer patients but would never do a herpesvirus latency test, and tests for inflammation would be rare. These are good markers for long-term health, but not for things that are going to impact you tomorrow.” He said scientists haven’t yet identified the channel that gives people a sense of impending illness. One theory is that fatigue is a marker. “I’ve heard many primary care physicians say they’ve never seen anyone with a disease that wasn’t associated with fatigue,” Fagundes said. Another possibility is a sense of imbalance in the gut microbiome, another avenue of future study."

"...But doctors should still pay close attention to what patients report. “When a patient says, ‘I don’t feel like my health is very good right now,’ it’s meaningful thing with a biological basis, even if they don’t show symptoms,” he said. “When I go to patient-advocate conferences, people say they’re grateful we’re finding biological mechanisms because they feel like doctors have ignored them for years, saying, ‘It’s in your head.’ Well, it’s in your head, but there’s a reason."
 
Last edited:

dd99

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
434
This is me right now.

Second baby, massive job stress, worn out. Around December started getting colds. Then a couple of months later, caught chickenpox from my son. Then my dormant autoimmune alopecia areata reactivated badly for the first time in a decade. Now have had a chronic cough and hayfever for three months.

Yeah, this has been a bad year healthwise. Feel pretty lost about what to do.

I dropped all supplements and focused on making sure all nutrients covered and not eating crap (I had started eating oats and homemade bread for the first time in years - perhaps I triggered something)

I am also concerned that all this focus on carrot salad and charcoal has left my gut open to unfriendly bacteria.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,562
This is me right now.

Second baby, massive job stress, worn out. Around December started getting colds. Then a couple of months later, caught chickenpox from my son. Then my dormant autoimmune alopecia areata reactivated badly for the first time in a decade. Now have had a chronic cough and hayfever for three months.

Yeah, this has been a bad year healthwise. Feel pretty lost about what to do.

I dropped all supplements and focused on making sure all nutrients covered and not eating crap (I had started eating oats and homemade bread for the first time in years - perhaps I triggered something)

I am also concerned that all this focus on carrot salad and charcoal has left my gut open to unfriendly bacteria.

Yes...but did a doctor tell you you were fine at the same time?
 

dd99

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
434
Yes, oddly the health check for our life insurance a few months ago came back fine, despite my feeling more susceptible to illness than I think I ever have. Mind you, they didn't check my thyroid, just cholesterol, liver, BMI and some blood markers. And, of course, I didn't say that I'd been getting more colds than ever!

I was mainly referring to this section by Haidut:
haidut said:
...it confirms the connection between stress and inflammation, and viral diseases which Ray has talked about so many times before. In a nutshell, stress increases inflammation and activates endogenous viruses, which then contribute to a whole host of pathologies related to latent infections and chronic inflammation (which is pretty much all known diseases out there)...viruses like EBV, JCV, HIV, polio, even ALS are all driven by the same cascade of stress -> inflammation -> cortisol -> estrogen -> suppressed immunity -> disease.
That spoke to me.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,787
Location
USA / Europe
This is me right now.

Second baby, massive job stress, worn out. Around December started getting colds. Then a couple of months later, caught chickenpox from my son. Then my dormant autoimmune alopecia areata reactivated badly for the first time in a decade. Now have had a chronic cough and hayfever for three months.

Yeah, this has been a bad year healthwise. Feel pretty lost about what to do.

I dropped all supplements and focused on making sure all nutrients covered and not eating crap (I had started eating oats and homemade bread for the first time in years - perhaps I triggered something)

I am also concerned that all this focus on carrot salad and charcoal has left my gut open to unfriendly bacteria.

The proliferation of viruses and manifesting their effects on the cells requires activating the serotonin "receptor". Blocking that receptor with something like cyproheptadine may stop pretty much any viral disease, even something as serious as HIV, Ebola, and rabies. Even the deadly condition PML caused by JCV.
The JCV uses a serotonin receptor to infect cells
Cyproheptadine May Prevent And Treat HIV Infection
Cyproheptadine May Treat Ebola Infection
 

robknob

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
384
Location
St Louis
The proliferation of viruses and manifesting their effects on the cells requires activating the serotonin "receptor". Blocking that receptor with something like cyproheptadine may stop pretty much any viral disease, even something as serious as HIV, Ebola, and rabies. Even the deadly condition PML caused by JCV.
The JCV uses a serotonin receptor to infect cells
Cyproheptadine May Prevent And Treat HIV Infection
Cyproheptadine May Treat Ebola Infection
So do you think other anti serotonin measures could be as effective? Like if one was to deplete tryptophan with aminos, and take things like l-theanine, aspirin, benadryl, etc... could those combinations match up to cypro's effects for those who can only access otc stuff?
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,787
Location
USA / Europe
So do you think other anti serotonin measures could be as effective? Like if one was to deplete tryptophan with aminos, and take things like l-theanine, aspirin, benadryl, etc... could those combinations match up to cypro's effects for those who can only access otc stuff?

Sure, if you managed to chronically deplete serotonin. However, these measures usually limit serotonin availability to the brain and once a viral cascade starts the serotonin is already being synthesized and the virus interacts with the cell using the serotonin receptor. So, you need something that will block existing serotonin and prevent the virus from activating the receptor as well. The aminos won't do that, and anti-serotonin drug may be needed. A TLR4 antagonist may also do the job and it just so happens that most anti-serotonin drugs are also TLR4 antagonists.
 

Fractality

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
772
It is almost guaranteed that whenever I take a drug that promotes serotonin (through release and/or reuptake inhibition) I get a cold sore. This is why I avoid all the classic "recreational" stimulants. These stimulants significantly raise cortisol. Amphetamines/cocaine release serotonin and prevent its reuptake. I have friends that react well to these substances and I venture to guess it is because their cortisol "baseline" is already high; or perhaps they are used to utilizing cortisol as their fuel. Especially since optimizing my bioenergetic system, I experience these drugs as a "shock" of unpleasant cortisol/serotonin/estrogen dominance. These "self-reported" symptoms contradict the near universal perception of these drugs as fun and pleasurable.
 

dd99

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
434
Thanks, Haidut.

You say
A TLR4 antagonist may also do the job and it just so happens that most anti-serotonin drugs are also TLR4 antagonists.
Would niacinamide fit the bill and, if so, what sort of dose do you think would be needed? I only ask because I have to drive a couple of thousand kilometres in Europe in the next month, so can't afford any drowsiness from cyproheptadine.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,787
Location
USA / Europe
Thanks, Haidut.

You say
Would niacinamide fit the bill and, if so, what sort of dose do you think would be needed? I only ask because I have to drive a couple of thousand kilometres in Europe in the next month, so can't afford any drowsiness from cyproheptadine.

Niacinamide, minocycline, and some caffeine derivatives are also TLR4 antagonists. I think you can get minocycline in EU pretty easily, but not sure which countries you are passing through.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
It is almost guaranteed that whenever I take a drug that promotes serotonin (through release and/or reuptake inhibition) I get a cold sore. This is why I avoid all the classic "recreational" stimulants. These stimulants significantly raise cortisol. Amphetamines/cocaine release serotonin and prevent its reuptake.
This is a fascinating connection. Thanks for sharing this. I have seen people on SSRI's struggling with some form of herpes or another. This makes sense.
 

Lilly

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
82
This thread was an eye opener:) so, bumb:)

@Haidut , could I use metergoline instead of cyproheptadine or would cyproheptadine be better for viral problems?
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,787
Location
USA / Europe
This thread was an eye opener:) so, bumb:)

@Haidut , could I use metergoline instead of cyproheptadine or would cyproheptadine be better for viral problems?

Any anti-serotonin should help, as may inosine, adamantane and its derivatives, and methylene blue (alone or combined with bright light).
 

Lilly

Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
82
Thanks! I am interested in cyproheptadine but now I am kind of leaning towards metergoline since it improves insulin sensitivity and that interests me very much.
 

jzeno

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
543
This reminds me of dogs being able to sniff out diseases like cancer with a high rate of accuracy

Can dogs smell lung cancer? First study using exhaled breath and urine screening in unselected patients with suspected lung cancer. - PubMed - NCBI

Granted, this would also be considered objective rather than subjective, but it still highlights how in many ways our low-tech, crude, simplistic methods of detection, prevention and treatment are in some cases more effective and/or efficient than the high-tech, very technical methods that we'eve developed.

You'd think with all the time and research put into this we would have found better ways than a dog's nose to detect cancer but it just goes to show how much we still have to learn.

 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
Drareg G7 Leaders don’t have to self isolate after arriving in the UK Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 6
EvanTheDrummer Canadian Preparation, Self Sustaining Community and Resources Society 91
F Did you ever draw your blood your self? tips? Ask For Help or Advice 6
Lokzo Dopamine Increases Self-Awareness Blogs 0
JessFields Self-acupuncture Ask For Help or Advice 2
H Is it really possible to live without fear, indecision, self-doubt, regret, etc? Mental Issues 91
Mito Coronavirus doctor's diary: We're getting self-harming 10-year-olds in A&E Miscellaneous Health Discussions 1
J Calcium and self harm Ask For Help or Advice 3
youngsinatra High Dose Niacinamide Self-Experiment. Experiments 29
DANIEL A High Serotonin Society | Morning Routines, Self-Improvement, Habit Tracking Miscellaneous 9
M What Filler Would You Chose To Self-compound B12 Powder? Supplements 9
T Self-experiment: Feeling Great After 2 Weeks Of No Coffee Or White Sugar Coffee 75
C Have I Been Self Medicating With Sugar? Ask For Help or Advice 1
A Some Self Observations After 1 Week In A Hospital Testimonials 21
Grapelander The Untold Story Of Napoleon Hill – The Greatest Self-Help Scammer Of All Time Meditation, Mindfullness, Religion, Spirituality 14
Lenny Endotoxins/pestisides In Self Made OrangeJuice Opinions Fruit Juice 3
Jamesu Self Help In The Age Of Neo-liberalism Health 68
ScurveDream Hiatal Hernia Self-adjustment Possibility? Experiments 5
lyfe Candida Self Diagnosis? Digestion 25
T Self-diagnosing: If I Start Itching A Little After Eating X, Should I Eliminate It? Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 1
Mito How Our Brains Distinguish Between Self-touch And Touch By Others Articles & Scientific Studies 0
A.R Anyone Try To Self Inject Antibiotics? Ask For Help or Advice 3
ATP To What Degree Does Self Control Exist, If At All? The Illusion Of Free Will Ask For Help or Advice 19
A. squamosa Self Test For H.pylori? Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 8
CherrySodaBomb Former FtM Girl Now Self-Conscious About Her Enlarged Clit & Small Breasts Female Issues 9
bodacious Understanding My Bioenergetic Self Book Recommendations 1
C Those Self Treating With NDT, How Do You Work With Your Doctor? Ask For Help or Advice 18
haidut Self-experimentation May Be The True Driver Of Progress In Medicine Scientific Studies 6
T Self Healing Logs 3
L Study Found: When It Comes To Knowing True Self, Believe In Free Will Mind, Sleep, Stress 43
haidut Sugar (glucose) Enhances, Not Depletes, Self-control Scientific Studies 6
J Self-recovered From Low Testosterone Male Issues 27
S The Physiology Of Willpower: Linking Blood Glucose To Self-Control Articles & Scientific Studies 31
Y The Value of Continence (self-restraint from sexual activity) (1957) Miscellaneous Health Discussions 10
Y I am a chronic slacker. I procrastinate self-destructively. I have for years. The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 28
uuy8778yyi Tryptophan Depletion: The Path to Depression, Low Self-esteem, Obsession, and Eating Disorders? Miscellaneous Health Discussions 1
M Politics & Science A Self-Ordering World - How Do You Know Patients, Students And Discovery Audio Interview Transcripts 4
haidut Self-awareness In Animals Mind, Sleep, Stress 2
CellularIconoclast A Curriculum For Self-education In Biological Nutrition Book Recommendations 94
P lack of self satisfaction Miscellaneous Health Discussions 0
B Dissenting and self-protection Ray Peat Quotes 3
G Serotonin & Self Esteem Mind, Sleep, Stress 7
ecstatichamster Bombshell fda document re Pfizer trials not reported Vaccines 15
Giraffe Covid Vaccines : Databases of Reported Adverse Events (for the US, the EU and the UK) Vaccines 6
yerrag Global Coronavirus Death Toll Could Be 60% Higher Than Reported Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 29
Drareg Global Coronavirus Death Toll Could Be 60% Higher Than Reported Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 6
H Cohort Of Cancer Patients No Reported Covid Cases - All Were Taking Methylene Blue Methylene Blue 3
jzeno H.I.V. Is Reported Cured In A Second Patient, A Milestone In The Global AIDS Epidemic Breaking News 59
K Lowest Reported Levels Of Coronary Artery Disease Of Any Population Recorded To Date Scientific Studies 10
S Soylent Meal Replacement Powder Reported to Contain Lead and Cadmium Miscellaneous Health Discussions 0

Similar threads

Top