Seems Like The Calcium Intake Of Hunter Gatherers Would Be Low

[boris]

But there are very few animals that eat bones. Even a dog that gnaws on a bone all day, doesn't make much headway.

Depends on the size of the bone. A dog will eat a whole chicken with bones. I also saw my family's dog eat bigger bones from lamb or pork entirely.

 

[Runenight201]

Also I have heard that the four minerals, calcium, sodium, magnesium, potassium, can be transformed into each other within the body if metabolism is good, so if you're getting an excess of 3/4 of them for example you don't have to worry about a deficiency of the remaining one.

I’ve always wondered how carnivores get their calcium. Perhaps this is the best explanation, as meat is high in potassium, but not calcium, and perhaps the carnivore’s genome has evolved to be very efficient at converting such minerals into calcium. A thorough study into this would be fascinating to read. The whole calcium ordeal still confuses me.

 

[lampofred]

I’ve always wondered how carnivores get their calcium. Perhaps this is the best explanation, as meat is high in potassium, but not calcium, and perhaps the carnivore’s genome has evolved to be very efficient at converting such minerals into calcium. A thorough study into this would be fascinating to read. The whole calcium ordeal still confuses me.

The higher your thyroid function the more calcium you need, otherwise you burn out and end up with chronic fatigue. After puberty stops most people/animals (except for us on RPF lol and very rich people I guess) stop relying so much on pure thyroid as opposed to salt-driven stimulation for energy which is why adults stop drinking milk. But even for adults who have stopped growing, calcium is a highly anti-stress nutrient if it is available.

Calcium is more necessary for growing/dividing than for differentiated functioning. But since just living in civilization is a constant stress, it is probably necessary as an anti-stress nutrient in current times.

EDIT: I wrote that as if I knew those things were facts but I'm mostly just guessing.

 

[Kvothe]

But there are very few animals that eat bones. Even a dog that gnaws on a bone all day, doesn't make much headway.

Wild "dogs" and cats eat a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1:1.

I’ve always wondered how carnivores get their calcium. Perhaps this is the best explanation, as meat is high in potassium, but not calcium, and perhaps the carnivore’s genome has evolved to be very efficient at converting such minerals into calcium. A thorough study into this would be fascinating to read. The whole calcium ordeal still confuses me.

Most carnivores get a Ca:P ratio of 1:1.

Turning one element into another is bullocks. Humans for most of our time on this earth were primarily carnivorous, and thats likely what we are meant to be for the most part so I would consider humans almost equivalent to other carnivores. In a natural setting, all carnivores have very good ability to regulate calcium.

There are multiple mechanisms in humans for example for regulating and conserving calcium which you can look up online. Thats why we have parathyroid glands. Calcium can be reabsorbed by kidneys. Lack of calcium in the diet will increase calcium absorption from whatever foods you eat. Low calcium will also trigger more vitamin D conversion to active vitamin D calcitriol (for more absorption).

Big cat carnivores who don't touch milk or any significant calcium source after they are done growing and need to eat meat exclusively are doing fine. We don't have big cats killing over in the african savannah from calcium deficiency. Many humans barely touch dairy except for the occasional slice of cheese on a burger once in a while. Or they have yogurt occasionally. I used to be one of those. I didnt die, felt normal, better than normal, tons of energy for exercise and energy for life even without dairy. Dairy doesn't improve my energy in the slightest and never has.

Essentially all big cat carnivores eat a Ca:P of 1:1. No need to create false facts to push anti-calcium propaganda.

"When big cats eat whole animals or are given bones they ingest calcium and phosphorus in a ratio of two parts calcium to one part phosphorous."
​

Metabolic bone disease in lion cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: the original animal model of rickets

 

[redsun]

I’ve always wondered how carnivores get their calcium. Perhaps this is the best explanation, as meat is high in potassium, but not calcium, and perhaps the carnivore’s genome has evolved to be very efficient at converting such minerals into calcium. A thorough study into this would be fascinating to read. The whole calcium ordeal still confuses me.

Turning one element into another is bullocks. Humans for most of our time on this earth were primarily carnivorous, and thats likely what we are meant to be for the most part so I would consider humans almost equivalent to other carnivores. In a natural setting, all carnivores have very good ability to regulate calcium.

There are multiple mechanisms in humans for example for regulating and conserving calcium which you can look up online. Thats why we have parathyroid glands. Calcium can be reabsorbed by kidneys. Lack of calcium in the diet will increase calcium absorption from whatever foods you eat. Low calcium will also trigger more vitamin D conversion to active vitamin D calcitriol (for more absorption).

Big cat carnivores who don't touch milk or any significant calcium source after they are done growing and need to eat meat exclusively are doing fine. We don't have big cats killing over in the african savannah from calcium deficiency. Many humans barely touch dairy except for the occasional slice of cheese on a burger once in a while. Or they have yogurt occasionally. I used to be one of those. I didnt die, felt normal, better than normal, tons of energy for exercise and energy for life even without dairy. Dairy doesn't improve my energy in the slightest and never has.

 

[Kvothe]

Big cat carnivores who don't touch milk or any significant calcium source after they are done growing and need to eat meat exclusively are doing fine.

You are saying ridiculous things that have nothing to do with reality. Cats get tons of calcium from eating bones. I'll quote it again for you. There are dozens of studies showing how the excessive phosphorus content of only-meat diets is harmful for pet cats and dogs, and quickly leads to kidney disease.

"When big cats eat whole animals or are given bones they ingest calcium and phosphorus in a ratio of two parts calcium to one part phosphorous."
​

Metabolic bone disease in lion cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: the original animal model of rickets

 

[Runenight201]

The higher your thyroid function the more calcium you need, otherwise you burn out and end up with chronic fatigue. After puberty stops most people/animals (except for us on RPF lol and very rich people I guess) stop relying so much on pure thyroid as opposed to salt-driven stimulation for energy which is why adults stop drinking milk. But even for adults who have stopped growing, calcium is a highly anti-stress nutrient if it is available.

Calcium is more necessary for growing/dividing than for differentiated functioning. But since just living in civilization is a constant stress, it is probably necessary as an anti-stress nutrient in current times.

EDIT: I wrote that as if I knew those things were facts but I'm mostly just guessing.

couldn’t quite digest your rich people statement, are you saying that with age people adapt to stressful energy, but rich people don’t have to because they aren’t financially stressed? I don’t buy the whole rich people aren’t stressed. Certainly, they don’t have to deal with the lower hierarchy of needs, but the alive Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos don’t look like the pinnacle of good health!

I will agree with though with perhaps an unstated notion that when one takes up “eating like an adult”, which includes the standard brown rice, lean meat, and vegetable crap, they tend to degenerate. A diverse, energy rich, nutrient rich, diet consumed in abundance keeps the stress at bay and allows for generative health.

Turning one element into another is bullocks. Humans for most of our time on this earth were primarily carnivorous, and thats likely what we are meant to be for the most part so I would consider humans almost equivalent to other carnivores. In a natural setting, all carnivores have very good ability to regulate calcium.

There are multiple mechanisms in humans for example for regulating and conserving calcium which you can look up online. Thats why we have parathyroid glands. Calcium can be reabsorbed by kidneys. Lack of calcium in the diet will increase calcium absorption from whatever foods you eat. Low calcium will also trigger more vitamin D conversion to active vitamin D calcitriol (for more absorption).

Big cat carnivores who don't touch milk or any significant calcium source after they are done growing and need to eat meat exclusively are doing fine. We don't have big cats killing over in the african savannah from calcium deficiency. Many humans barely touch dairy except for the occasional slice of cheese on a burger once in a while. Or they have yogurt occasionally. I used to be one of those. I didnt die, felt normal, better than normal, tons of energy for exercise and energy for life even without dairy. Dairy doesn't improve my energy in the slightest and never has.

there still is a period in between the cessation of weaning on mother’s milk and becoming a full fledged adult mammal that the animal is continuing to grow it’s skeleton, meaning that there must be a surplus of calcium coming in to facilitate the addition of new skeletal cells... right?

 

[Runenight201]

You are saying ridiculous things that have nothing to do with reality. Cats get tons of calcium from eating bones. I'll quote it again for you. There are dozens of studies showing how the excessive phosphorus content of only-meat diets is harmful for pet cats and dogs, and quickly leads to kidney disease.

"When big cats eat whole animals or are given bones they ingest calcium and phosphorus in a ratio of two parts calcium to one part phosphorous."
​

Metabolic bone disease in lion cubs at the London Zoo in 1889: the original animal model of rickets

if you were to eat bones, how would you do it?

 

[Kvothe]

there still is a period in between the cessation of weaning on mother’s milk and becoming a full fledged adult mammal that the animal is continuing to grow it’s skeleton, meaning that there must be a surplus of calcium coming in to facilitate the addition of new skeletal cells... right?

The more protein and phosphorus a mammal eats, the more calcium they need to offset the harmful metabolic consequences of too much phosphate. Without adequate calcium, the teeth, bones, and kidneys of carnivores degenerate rapdily. That's why cats need much more calcium than humans. We eat less protein and phosphorus, and more fruits and leaves with better Ca:P ratios. Plus, fructose from fruits reduces serum phophorus further, reducing the need for extra calcium.

if you were to eat bones, how would you do it?

Since I am not a cat, I don't feel the need to gnaw on a bone. Eating lots of sugar, avoiding grains and excess meat, and having a little dairy once in a while should be sufficient.

 

[boris]

if you were to eat bones, how would you do it?

If you didn't have another calcium source you could grind down the bones of a small animal like a bird, rodent or fish with stones like this and eat small amounts of the powder with meals:

Although one could eat smaller animals whole without so much preperation. Hunter gatherers maybe ate some leaves too and had no need for more calcium?

I used to eat the end bones of roast chicken wings, you can chew them pretty easily. I heard other people eat even bigger chicken bones and digesting them normally.

 

[lampofred]

couldn’t quite digest your rich people statement, are you saying that with age people adapt to stressful energy, but rich people don’t have to because they aren’t financially stressed? I don’t buy the whole rich people aren’t stressed. Certainly, they don’t have to deal with the lower hierarchy of needs, but the alive Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos don’t look like the pinnacle of good health!

I will agree with though with perhaps an unstated notion that when one takes up “eating like an adult”, which includes the standard brown rice, lean meat, and vegetable crap, they tend to degenerate. A diverse, energy rich, nutrient rich, diet consumed in abundance keeps the stress at bay and allows for generative health.

Yes I think socio-economic status is associated with higher thyroid/progesterone (but in modern times maybe also with higher estrogen and lower testosterone). There is a very clear and strong correlation between socio-economic status and longevity/health/all-cause mortality, which people haven't been able to explain via any means like smoking rates, diet, etc. I think the real cause is that the mental stress of being poor is a very fundamental signal to raise serotonin and turn off thyroid. Not poor in the absolute sense but in a relative sense to the people around you. Yes rich people have stress but job stress is very different from social defeat and fear of not having enough resources to live. The first is stimulating and can increase thyroid but with the latter, your body will naturally turn off growth and development (thyroid) if you don't believe you have the resources for it.

I think this is more applicable to established aristocracy and old money than entrepreneurs though. And maybe this is why Dr. Peat is a proponent of communism and equalizing the money supply. He wants everyone to be able to grow and develop instead of just the rich having that luxury and the poor working their whole lives at jobs they don't find fulfilling just to pay bills instead of developing.

 

[Runenight201]

If you didn't have another calcium source you could grind down the bones of a small animal like a bird, rodent or fish with stones like this and eat small amounts of the powder with meals:

Although one could eat smaller animals whole without so much preperation. Hunter gatherers maybe ate some leaves too and had no need for more calcium?

I used to eat the end bones of roast chicken wings, you can chew them pretty easily. I heard other people eat even bigger chicken bones and digesting them normally.

Or the classic egg shell calcium! I don’t know why I haven’t thought of adding this to my soups. I wonder what has more nutritional value, ground bone or egg... above all though, which one tastes the best!

Yes I think socio-economic status is associated with higher thyroid/progesterone (but in modern times maybe also with higher estrogen and lower testosterone). There is a very clear and strong correlation between socio-economic status and longevity/health/all-cause mortality, which people haven't been able to explain via any means like smoking rates, diet, etc. I think the real cause is that the mental stress of being poor is a very fundamental signal to raise serotonin and turn off thyroid. Not poor in the absolute sense but in a relative sense to the people around you. Yes rich people have stress but job stress is very different from social defeat and fear of not having enough resources to live. The first is stimulating and can increase thyroid but with the latter, your body will naturally turn off growth and development (thyroid) if you don't believe you have the resources for it.

I think this is more applicable to established aristocracy and old money than entrepreneurs though.

I like the idea your developing. Entrepreneurs certainly place a lot of stress on themselves and so in turn don’t have their wealth ultimately relieve them of any burden, where as old money hats are going to have very little worries and lots of power and influence, which certainly will do positive things for their physiology.

Religion then becomes a solution for the impoverished, stripped individual, as they are able to maintain their dignity and power, since all are equal beneath the sovereignty of the all powerful. For those unsuccessful in traditional society, the spiritual realm becomes their pro-metabolic saving grace.

This is probably why it’s a good idea to become skillful/knowledgeable in some regard, because not only does that arena provide a sense of purpose, but it also allows one to feel successful, thus ensuring pro-metabolic states and good health. The constant stimulation also prevents apathy and the subsequent degeneration of not doing anything. Success in an arena also usually means that one is able to secure a living through it and thus at the least maintain their basic needs.

Above all though, I think group acceptance is probably the most powerful social factor, and ostracization the most dangerous, as seen by well-integrated social humans having no need to engage in degenerative habitual behaviors, and social outcasts engaging in all sorts of dangerous behaviors, from addictions to murder/rape/etc. I can’t even imagine the feelings a social outcast from childhood must experience throughout their entire life, and can see why they are drawn to such extreme forms of recognition. What’s even more awful is that socially ostracized individual had no control over their Pre-natal environment, childhood growth and development, that led to them being ostracized, and thus turns to incorrect solutions that don’t address the issues at hand.

 

[lvysaur]

Plus I think modern human has evolved to eat more calcium because of dairy farming.

Northwest Europeans have higher iron levels, probably a direct adaptation to a dairy-based diet.

Calcium interferes with iron absorption, and the groups that had a calcium-dairy diet have higher innate iron levels.

Consumption of dairy is an adaptation to northern latitudes to get more calcium in face of much lower vitamin D.

No it's not. Skin lightening is an adaptation to vitamin D. The consumption of dairy is more common in the equator than at the poles, and lactose tolerance genes show the greatest diversity in the Afro-Arabian region.

 

[RWilly]

I’ve always wondered how carnivores get their calcium. Perhaps this is the best explanation, as meat is high in potassium, but not calcium, and perhaps the carnivore’s genome has evolved to be very efficient at converting such minerals into calcium. A thorough study into this would be fascinating to read. The whole calcium ordeal still confuses me.

Most plant foods are a better source of potassium than meat. A 4-ounce steak is 435mg, which is 9% of the RDA, while 1 potato is 1957 mg at 40% of the RDA.

 

[RWilly]

Northwest Europeans have higher iron levels, probably a direct adaptation to a dairy-based diet.

Calcium interferes with iron absorption, and the groups that had a calcium-dairy diet have higher innate iron levels.

The higher iron uptake is traced to viking ancestry ... so before early farming. I do think the the move to farming however, would have had an impact on iron level.

 

[DrJ]

No it's not. Skin lightening is an adaptation to vitamin D.

Skin lightening is not enough when you see that vitamin d can't be produced above a certain latitude for most parts of the year in Europe. That other areas have dairy adaptations does not preclude that. It's also a good source of protein that keeps giving if you don't kill it, so another reason to drive adaptation to dairy.

 

[sladerunner69]

A hunter gatherer diet is not an omptimal diet by any means.

 

[Dave Clark]

I read somewhere that ancient cultures would grind up the bones of the animals they ate and put them in their breads.

 

[schultz]

Depends on the size of the bone. A dog will eat a whole chicken with bones. I also saw my family's dog eat bigger bones from lamb or pork entirely.

A while back my pig ate my chickens. There was nothing left aside from a few feathers. That means that not only did he eat every single bone, but also almost all of the feathers. To be fair, I never actually saw him do this, but it was him and a few chickens and there was no way out or in (it was winter so they never left the room). I couldn't figure out what was happening to my hens and inspected the entire area. There is no way any critter could have got in the pen, and there were no signs of any critters coming in except for mice (the floor was concrete for one thing). I knew that pigs would eat small animals if given the chance, but this was a pot bellied pig so I didn't think it would happen.

Anyhoo, he was definitely getting calcium.

 

[RWilly]

I thought I would mention another twist. So even though early farmer's were smaller and also less healthy than their hunter gatherer, this may have not been due to dairy or calcium. I look at the Dutch people, who are the tallest people in the world. They grew tall in the last 200 years. They used to be short.

Dairy makes up about 25% of the calories of the Dutch. They also eat a lot of sugar and starch.