Sedentary Steroid Users Grow Double The Rate Of Natural Bodybuilders

[R J]

Please tell me you are not using Var on its own, without a T base

Why not?

 

[TheBeard]

Why not?

Because it doesn't constitute a viable T substitude like trestolone or nandrolone would.

 

[TheBeard]

How can you tell that they actually gained more muscles and that it isn't just mostly water weight?

I can't find anything about estrogen or aromatase inhibitors in this study. Is there a way to read the full paper? Or does someone know if they controlled estrogen?

Also a longer study would definitely show that this gains without exercise will stop pretty fast. In my opinion this is just the body adjusting to higher testosterone levels, which leads to more muscle mass. Once your body hast adjusted the gains will stop without exercise.

The conclusion is bull**** in my opinion, when we talk about long term

bull****? It's not like you deflate once you've maxed out.
600mg will sustain whatever muscle mass 600mg enabled you to put on.

 

[Jing]

I’m too lazy to read the paper. Do they actually differentiate between water retention and lean tissue growth?

They don't differentiate . I've taken 600mg testosterone for long periods of times it doesn't just put muscle on you , you still have to train hard these People must of had no muscle on them in the first place and most of it is probably water

 

[TheBeard]

They don't differentiate . I've taken 600mg testosterone for long periods of times it doesn't just put muscle on you , you still have to train hard these People must of had no muscle on them in the first place and most of it is probably water

I beg to disagree, 350mg testosterone put a significant amount of muscle on me in 3 weeks with only one light workout a week.

 

[Jing]

I beg to disagree, 350mg testosterone put a significant amount of muscle on me in 3 weeks with only one light workout a week.

Yh most of it was probably water ... Also did you workout before this? Did you have muscle on you before?? I had my testosterone levels in the 5000 for months didn't gain any muscle I wasn't working out lol it maintained all my muscle I had though. Steroids are best at maintaining muscle . Steroids ain't the miracle people make them out to be.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yh most of it was probably water ... Also did you workout before this? Did you have muscle on you before?? I had my testosterone levels in the 5000 for months didn't gain any muscle I wasn't working out lol it maintained all my muscle I had though. Steroids are best at maintaining muscle . Steroids ain't the miracle people make them out to be.

I'm still inclined to believe a well controlled study with several men that did underwater weighing and DEXA than a random anecdote of a single man, especially when that anecdote doesn't even disagree much with the results of the study.

You said you "Maintained all the muscle you had." Were you working out previous and then stopped when you did the Testosterone? The study showed that lifting + test basically got those men the gains added together from the group that either only worked out and the group that only took Test. So that's another factor, you would guess (from the study) that a man who stops working out when he starts 600 mg test would only gain about 1-2 pounds of muscle over ten weeks, basically subtracting the training group from the Test group.

Also, aren't you pretty young? Young men generally have a favorable hormonal environment anyway, so it makes sense that there would be a more dramatic response in older men.

 

[Jing]

I'm still inclined to believe a well controlled study with several men that did underwater weighing and DEXA than a random anecdote of a single man, especially when that anecdote doesn't even disagree much with the results of the study.

You said you "Maintained all the muscle you had." Were you working out previous and then stopped when you did the Testosterone? The study showed that lifting + test basically got those men the gains added together from the group that either only worked out and the group that only took Test. So that's another factor, you would guess (from the study) that a man who stops working out when he starts 600 mg test would only gain about 1-2 pounds of muscle over ten weeks, basically subtracting the training group from the Test group.

Also, aren't you pretty young? Young men generally have a favorable hormonal environment anyway, so it makes sense that there would be a more dramatic response in older men.

The older men probably had hardly any muscle to begin with and does it even say if it was lean mass or water? If you haven't taken steroids then you are just believing the hype lol people seem to think steroids are some miracle that will turn you into hulk ..

And yh I was training naturally gained muscle went on test probably trained for like 2 weeks then just stopped working out didn't lose any off my muscle.

To gain muscle you still have to break down muscle tissue for it to grow back bigger regardless of steroid use or not

 

[tankasnowgod]

The older men probably had hardly any muscle to begin with and does it even say if it was lean mass or water? If you haven't taken steroids then you are just believing the hype lol people seem to think steroids are some miracle that will turn you into hulk ..

Did you even pay attention to the studies? One mentioned 17 pounds of muscle gained over 20 weeks. While that's a huge gain, 17 pounds of muscle won't turn you into the hulk.

Weird that you even bring up a "Hulk" look, as I don't think it's possible to turn into a Hulk WITHOUT steroids, likely in much larger doses than the men in the study were given. Those guys are likely taking a couple grams or so a week. Sure, those guys are training hard. You probably have to train hard and use a couple grams of steroids a week to achieve that.

 

[Jing]

Did you even pay attention to the studies? One mentioned 17 pounds of muscle gained over 20 weeks. While that's a huge gain, 17 pounds of muscle won't turn you into the hulk.

Weird that you even bring up a "Hulk" look, as I don't think it's possible to turn into a Hulk WITHOUT steroids, likely in much larger doses than the men in the study were given. Those guys are likely taking a couple grams or so a week. Sure, those guys are training hard. You probably have to train hard and use a couple grams of steroids a week to achieve that.

And how much of that 17 was water? How much muscle did these people start with?? Well yh bodybuilders take grams and have been at it for years and years with very hard work . Just sitting around won't give you muscle even on steroids .

 

[Jessie]

The infamous "hulking" can really only be accomplished by a combination of different things. Steroids is a huge part, but you also gotta be firmly committed to the gym and also eating hypercaloric diets. Take a guy like Rich Piana (RIP) or Jay Cutler, these guys aren't in the gym for a 45 minute workout. When they hit the gym they hit for hours at a time, in fact Piana made a video saying as much. Hit the gym for hours, eat tons and tons of food, and get your cycle tuned properly, then maybe you got a chance of hulking up if the genetics allow for it. Of course, none of this is healthy mind you.

 

[tankasnowgod]

And how much of that 17 was water? How much muscle did these people start with?? Well yh bodybuilders take grams and have been at it for years and years with very hard work . Just sitting around won't give you muscle even on steroids .

LOL, like most of our bodies aren't water anyway. Why don't you read through the studies and find some specific points to disagree with, instead of just throwing out assumptions from the hallowed halls of Bro Science? What are you basing that claim on, anyway? Do you have another study you can cite where men were given testosterone, told not to train, and DIDN'T develop muscle?

It's pretty clear that "Weight Training" isn't required to grow and develop muscle, seeing as babies have muscle, and children continue to build muscle, regardless of whether or not they have a gym membership. Horses tend to be very muscular, and I've never seen one in a gym. Same deal with the buff chimps than Haidut referred to. You're putting a whole lot of faith into a relatively new phenomenon.

 

[Jing]

LOL, like most of our bodies aren't water anyway. Why don't you read through the studies and find some specific points to disagree with, instead of just throwing out assumptions from the hallowed halls of Bro Science? What are you basing that claim on, anyway? Do you have another study you can cite where men were given testosterone, told not to train, and DIDN'T develop muscle?

It's pretty clear that "Weight Training" isn't required to grow and develop muscle, seeing as babies have muscle, and children continue to build muscle, regardless of whether or not they have a gym membership. Horses tend to be very muscular, and I've never seen one in a gym. Same deal with the buff chimps than Haidut referred to. You're putting a whole lot of faith into a relatively new phenomenon.

The argument about horses and chimps is irrelevant they use their muscles .. I'm not going to just believe a study over my own experience with 5000 testosterone why didn't I gain this muscle then even when I started working out on steroids not like I gained a bunch of muscle fast . Take some steroids and come back.

 

[Jing]

The infamous "hulking" can really only be accomplished by a combination of different things. Steroids is a huge part, but you also gotta be firmly committed to the gym and also eating hypercaloric diets. Take a guy like Rich Piana (RIP) or Jay Cutler, these guys aren't in the gym for a 45 minute workout. When they hit the gym they hit for hours at a time, in fact Piana made a video saying as much. Hit the gym for hours, eat tons and tons of food, and get your cycle tuned properly, then maybe you got a chance of hulking up if the genetics allow for it. Of course, none of this is healthy mind you.

Also hgh insulin probably some nandrolone dbol etc

 

[cjm]

“THE MAGIC BULLET” ABOUT STEROIDS AKA BHASIN ET AL, 1996

Good read^ about the Bhasin study posted by the OP. References a couple other studies Bhasin did. God bless Bhasin.

The author of the review article (not Bhasin) says in the comments section regarding water gains vs lean gains:

"As of now there is very solid evidence that AAS increases the amount of muscle protein and not just water, even without training...

Anders"​

No references cited. Take it fwiw.

I have started supplementing Cortinon (+extra progesterone and androsterone) after overdoing Test base (~300mg in one day) and nearly having a heart attack a few months back. I'm 6'1, 160 lbs on a good day (down from 190 at the height of my virility) and trying to put some meat on muh bones. A course of Cortinon (with the higher ratio of prog: DHEA) plus Androsterone costs about $90 and has a safety (and efficacy) profile that put T esters to shame:

DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

"A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesterone: DHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here."
​

@haidut, did your friend ever get back to you with his test results? This was last last August (2019).

 

[Jib]

I’m positive pushups and single leg squats would make anyone swole on a quarantine blast. Most guys are addicted to big numbers tho so that’s unlikely to be an experiment

I'm not sure if by "blast" you mean using steroids, but when I was 18-19 I did massive amounts of knuckle pushups and my chest was jacked AF. It works. I did a bunch of other calisthenics stuff, never did weights, and had a lot of muscle.

Of course, back then, my natural testosterone levels were certainly much, much higher than they are today, 12 years later. But I agree. I'm still only doing calisthenics, with the exception of accessory work with dumbbells -- pretty much lateral raises. You can do Bulgarian dips on gym rings to hit the middle delts, and while they're allegedly great for that, at this point in time I basically have absolutely no shoulders at all, so I'm starting with basic accessory work for those. I have some skeletal abnormalities that might make overhead pressing impossible for me, including handstand pushups, so unfortunately that's something I'll have to work around. Birth defect, nothing I can do, extra half a vertebrate in my spine and also wild differences on the right side of my body compared to the left, can't seem to do any overhead pressing, barbell/dumbells/bodyweight doesn't matter, without clicking and pain in my right shoulder.

In any case, it is frustrating when people think it's all about hard work. No bro. There's a reason I have friends way more sedentary with me that have more muscle mass. They literally do nothing but sit around all day on the computer and haven't touched a dumbbell or done a pushup in years. Obviously they're not jacked but they look above average in terms of muscle mass compared to your 'normal dude.'

I've never used steroids and never will. However I am curious about the potential of DHEA. In the past I've only used a max of 10mg a day and seemed to do best on 5mg. Might start that again if it'll help give me a little bit of a boost. I would ideally like to do things that would raise my testosterone naturally. I've also heard D-aspartic acid can help but I don't remember exactly why. I don't want to waste time on useless supplements and am hesitant to start anything again, so if anyone has any opinions on things that can naturally raise testosterone, without resorting to using gear, I'd be very interested.

 

[cjm]

Birth defect, nothing I can do, extra half a vertebrate in my spine and also wild differences on the right side of my body compared to the left, can't seem to do any overhead pressing, barbell/dumbells/bodyweight doesn't matter, without clicking and pain in my right shoulder.

I've never heard of having extra gear in the spine, that's wild, probably hard to work around outside of having it surgically removed and yeah no thanks!

I also have asymmetry from right to left, most noticeably in the traps. My right shoulder sits an inch or so lower than my left. I used to sleep on my right arm to prop my head up. Years of this. I'm convinced it's muscular. What's worked for me has been to separate exercises into left and right side, i.e., hanging from one arm and switching between them. My mind is obsessed with unity, I'm compelled to use the left and right sides together, but that's no way to get a sense of each side's needs.

I don't want to waste time on useless supplements and am hesitant to start anything again, so if anyone has any opinions on things that can naturally raise testosterone, without resorting to using gear, I'd be very interested.

I feel you. Not sure it would qualify as natural but Gonadin and Diamant together (several mentions in the forum) increases muscle tone and maybe mass.

@Hans had a recent article on natural T optimization (maximization, actually): Maximize testosterone: a 26 quick tip guide

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm not going to just believe a study over my own experience with 5000 testosterone why didn't I gain this muscle then even when I started working out on steroids not like I gained a bunch of muscle fast .

I understand the point that it might not work for everyone, or that your experience is different from the study, but their is a massive difference between "Your Mileage May Vary" and "Steroids Will Never Build Muscle If You Don't Do Weight Training."

 

[Jing]

I understand the point that it might not work for everyone, or that your experience is different from the study, but their is a massive difference between "Your Mileage May Vary" and "Steroids Will Never Build Muscle If You Don't Do Weight Training."

I'm sure they would build muscle without training on someone with hardly any muscle.

 

[R J]

Testosterone puts on tons of water weight. I did a 350mg cycle and gained like 25lb in 4 weeks and immediately lost most of it when coming off.