Seborrheic Dermatitis Upon Peating

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

tinkerer said:
Charlie said:
j. said:
Isn't there a precursor form of vitamin B6 that makes it less likely you get toxic effects?
P5P or something like that. I think it's would be hard to get toxic levels from it, if you are burning it all up.
Yes, P5P. It's in a form that doesn't have to be converted. People like me with a MTHFR mutation have difficulty converting the cheap form of B6 and do better with the more bioavailable and less toxic form called P5P. What doesn't get used reportedly gets expelled in the urine.
Hmmmm. Wonder if I am having a conversion problem? Or burning it up? Scary thought indeed if the former.
 

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

tinkerer said:
Yes, P5P. It's in a form that doesn't have to be converted.
tinkerer, do you mind sharing your source of P5P? I looked on Dan's site but didn't see it listed.
 
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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Charlie, I looked at P5P supplements, couldn't find sources without bad listed additives, except for powder forms.
 

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Would need to try powder then. I much rather powders anyway, more control of dose and cleaner, hopefully.
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Charlie said:
Would need to try powder then. I much rather powders anyway, more control of dose and cleaner, hopefully.

Nice hat tip, thanks. Keep me posted. :)
 

tinkerer

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

j. said:
tinkerer, what's the name of the cheap one, the less bioavaliable for you and more toxic?
The cheap, more toxic ones are just labeled "B6" (pyridoxine hcl). Ray Peat actually suggests this type, but recommends not exceeding 10mg/day, as I understand it, which is a small dose. This form of B6 did nothing for me, even at higher doses, perhaps because of the MTHFR enzyme mutation.

The more effective, metabolically active coenzyme form is labeled "P5P" (pyridoxal 5 phosphate). I hadn't heard of it, but I worked in a supplement/herb store years ago, so I learned to ask "What's the best, most bioavailable form of ______ supplement you have?" When it came to B6, the store dude immediately pointed me to the P5P and man was he right. The P5P form produced some amazing early results. I felt great. Over the longer term, though, the effects decreased, as with most things. I suspect that my B6 levels are now increased and the supplement is thus less needed, so I take a smaller and more intermittent dose. I also don't want to potentially suppress my body's ability to produce B6.

Coincidentally, Albert Szent-Gyorgy was the first to isolate B6.

One source of B6 that people rarely talk about is beneficial GI bacteria:
"While fungi, plants, archae, and most eubacteria are able to synthesize vitB6 (see next Section), most animals, including humans, lack this ability and rely on the external supply of vitB6." (Vitamin B6: A Long Known Compound of Surprising, Complexity)
Princeton University scientist Bonnie Bassler compared the approximately 30,000 human genes found in the average human to the more than 3 million bacterial genes inhabiting us, concluding that we are at most one percent human. We are only beginning to understand the sort of impact our bacterial passengers have on our daily lives.

Moreover, these bacteria have been implicated in the development of neurological and behavioral disorders. For example, [highlight=#ffff40]gut bacteria may have an influence on the body’s use of vitamin B6[/highlight], which in turn has profound effects on the health of nerve and muscle cells. They modulate immune tolerance and, because of this, they may have an influence on autoimmune diseases, such as multiple sclerosis. They have been shown to influence anxiety-related behavior, although there is controversy regarding whether gut bacteria exacerbate or ameliorate stress related anxiety responses. In autism and other pervasive developmental disorders, there are reports that the specific bacterial species present in the gut are altered and that gastrointestinal problems exacerbate behavioral symptoms. A newly developed biochemical test for autism is based, in part, upon the end products of bacterial metabolism.

Interestingly, B6 inhibits glycation:

"B6 vitamers like pyridoxamine and pyridoxal-5’-phosphate provide protection against the ravages of glycation. Recent experimental studies show that oral supplementation with pyridoxal-5’-phosphate offers dramatic anti-glycation benefits in a model of diabetic kidney disease comparable to oral supplementation with pyridoxamine." (Julius Goepp, MD, B6 Vitamers: Natural Protection Against the Complications of Diabetes and Accelerated Aging, http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2009/jul ... ers_02.htm)

Presumably, if one can get enough of the right gut bacteria, one might not need B6 supplements. Easier said than done, of course. After I increased my consumption of prebiotic-rich foods, I didn't seem to need as much P5P (I know, not totally Peatarian, sorry :( -- though prebiotics also raised my body temp and RHR and Ray Peat said in the past to eat whatever does that for you, IIRC).

classicallady said:
Charlie said:
Would need to try powder then. I much rather powders anyway, more control of dose and cleaner, hopefully.

Hi Charlie, this is one I found. Pretty clean, inexpensive here where I purchased.

http://www.amazon.com/Food-Science-Pyri ... ywords=P5p
That's the main source I use.
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Tinkerer, you mean you use the Food Science of Vermont P5P? Do you just take 1/day? How do you know when you need to supplement? Curious as to what prebiotic you take?

Thanks,
C-lady
 

tinkerer

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Yes, I normally take the Food Science brand, or Vitamin Shoppe if it's on sale and I'm low on Food Science. I randomly vary the doses I take of supplements and some days take none, some days 6 or so, most days probably around 3. I shoot for a fractal, hormetic approach, with the long-term hope of minimizing supplements. I try to get it so I'm getting a little dream recall, but not too much.

It's not what's thought of as Peaty and I try not to get into it much on this forum to avoid pissing people off, but I try to eat a wide variety of prebiotic-rich foods and on days I don't get ancestral levels I tend to also use prebiotic powders. My favorite prebiotic foods are small, fresh, raw jicama, slightly ripened dried plantains and semi-green bananas. While lots of people make fun of the resistant starch powders, mung bean starch and potato starch did more to move my body temp. and RHR toward Peaty numbers than anything else. This ironically increased my interest in Peat's writings and interviews, to learn more about RHR and such, as hardly anyone else recommends a higher RHR. I like to think of RS as still Peatarian in a sense, because I once heard Ray say in an interview that he recommends eating whatever gives you good body temps, RHR, etc. :D
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

tinkerer said:
Yes, I normally take the Food Science brand, or Vitamin Shoppe if it's on sale and I'm low on Food Science. I randomly vary the doses I take of supplements and some days take none, some days 6 or so, most days probably around 3. I shoot for a fractal, hormetic approach, with the long-term hope of minimizing supplements. I try to get it so I'm getting a little dream recall, but not too much.

It's not what's thought of as Peaty and I try not to get into it much on this forum to avoid pissing people off, but I try to eat a wide variety of prebiotic-rich foods and on days I don't get ancestral levels I tend to also use prebiotic powders. My favorite prebiotic foods are small, fresh, raw jicama, slightly ripened dried plantains and semi-green bananas. While lots of people make fun of the resistant starch powders, mung bean starch and potato starch did more to move my body temp. and RHR toward Peaty numbers than anything else. This ironically increased my interest in Peat's writings and interviews, to learn more about RHR and such, as hardly anyone else recommends a higher RHR. I like to think of RS as still Peatarian in a sense, because I once heard Ray say in an interview that he recommends eating whatever gives you good body temps, RHR, etc. :D

Thanks for the very helpful information. What works for you may work for others, so sharing is helpful! :)
 

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

I am experiencing B6 toxicity symptoms and have immediately stopped taking the B6. I caution anyone taking high dose B6. Ray Peat was right, there is just no way I was using all that B6. Now I know. :?
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Thanks for the update, Charlie. What kinds of toxic symptoms would one be looking for, just for the record? What about P5P-- will you consider taking that in its place?
 

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

I dont think I will be touching a B6 vitamin supplement for a long time. :lol:

It started as my thigh muscle would spasm. But it would not hurt. That went away. Then I started itching, a lot. And really annoying itching like something crawling underneath my skin. I thought it was allergies, because I do have occasional bouts of itchiness. Then the shooting pains started, then neuropathy started at old injury spot in foot. The last two came on pretty quickly.
 

tinkerer

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

The inactive B6 form is linked to neuropathy side effects, but not the P5P form. That's why Classicallady's question was a reasonable one. Best not to do anything that you don't feel comfortable with, though.

FWIW, I have had no noticeable negative side effects from P5P myself, knock on wood. :lol:
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Charlie, wow that's scary. And weird about the itching. I wouldn't associate too much B6 with itching, but often paradoxically, the same symptoms that come from lack of a nutrient can appear from too much of it; hence, the old saying, "too much of a good thing is not good"! Just curious-- did you notice a worsening or re-appearing of the seb derm during this time?

Tinkerer, thanks for weighing in on P5P. Are you taking it daily? How much?
 

charlie

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Yes, its coming back quickly.
 

tinkerer

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Not every day, varying amounts of P5P, probably roughly averaging around 150 mg/day.
 

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Thats scary about the b6 toxicity. I'm sorry to hear your dermatitis is coming back. Do you have any creams for that by the way? If it gets real bad you could apply a small amount of hydrocortisone. It's anti-inflammatory. Works great if you have a rash, it will be gone in one or two days. I wouldn't use it too much/too long as it's basically cortisol so it does damage your skin and supresses your immune system.
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Unfortunately, the cortisone cream seems to suppress, as you mention, but not remove, the problem. Getting to the root is the issue. The more I read these reports about vitamin issues, the more I think it would not be a bad thing to go on a vitamin fast for a week or two, just eating well and getting enough balance in nutrients. Let's remember-- first, food is medicine!

Personally, I avoid the cortisone creams because I was hooked on them too many years ago. The doctors prescribed it like candy, and we didn't have the internet at the time. Doctors were gods, you know!

For me, no vitamins have been a magic bullet to get rid of my dermatitis. I think I'll nix the vitamins for a while and try FOOD. :)
 

Kray

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Re: Seborrheic dermititis upon Peating

Charlie said:
Yes, its coming back quickly.

Hope it settles down quickly. How about you try a vitamin/supplement fast?

btw- very interesting on the other post about seb derm and pufa/vit E link. I think most of us Peaters would be hard-pressed to try such a diet. I will say, I was craving sunflower seeds last week... sorry, hope I won't be censored for it :eek:
 

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