Schooling System Is Designed To Destroy Children

thomas00

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Plus I think there is a burgeoning conservative backlash to the government takeover of schooling the past 50 years, so that gives me at least a glimmer of hope... Even if the conservative/redpill ambitions for education probably don't neatly meat my ideal either

Publicly funded or privately funded ('private' schools drink from the government trough anyway).....both are there to serve the economic interests of employers rather than the individual
 

Xisca

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Groups or individuals, who knows what is more important! But groups are made of people. The more individuals, the bigger the group and the more powerless we feel! And the most we have learned helplessness, because we are really more helpless in a big group.

The problem is that we shame (i.e devalue and reject) the person not the behavior.
In that case this is violence.
When you really just reproach a behaviour, this is not violent.
But now the problem is that when you really reproach only a behaviour, the person will take it personally even when it was not....
Don't you think that there are really cases when you have to say that something is not ok, or a job is badly done? This is not violent, this is a statement.

Please please note again what I said about uncoupling! There things that are glued together and should not.
Overwhelming emotions is the glue!

What is interresting is to notice where are those emotions at physical level. We talk about this, and how violent either school or parents can be for children. So we come into contact about how violent it has been to us as children, we can't help it! What is the emotion? Something goes upward inside the body and it feels like "this is unfair!". Or we can feel disgusted and feel a movement of avoidance and turn the head. Or what else...
Make the experience, ask yourself what is the emotion, and then how do you feel in your body. It is not about crreating something but about curiosity and track what the body says. Then follow the experience in your body, give it your attention as a parent to a child, and the inner system will process the physical and the emotional aspect. And the feeling will change, as the inner wise try to reach ways to get out of the bad feeling, and reach some ways to deal with it.

We received violence, but we want to not get hurt again and again, we want to keep awareness of the problem, this yes, we will not forget. but at the same time feel NEUTRAL about it. Just in the sense to not be hurt again by a past perpetror, let's not give that much power to them! It works by going through the body sensation and overcome it with good sensations.
 

Xisca

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You say shame is healthier than guilt. I don't understand how that is possible.
No, none is healthy, though our different subjective experience is to feel more one than the other.
without looking at my words, I said that in my experience I feel more the experience of guilt than shame, and that your history probably gave you a worse experience with shame. As a teenager I was shamed for my little breasts for example, and I overcame this. (I even made a big joke at the doctor who got a hard job doing me the mamography! She stayed 2 seconds like a statue and then started to laugh with me!) But my parents, who trained me into our culture and education never made me feel they did not love me more or less according to my actions. But they surely did praise and reject many things. I do remember hearing "Aren't you ashame of..."
But there was sure LOVE. This love was present and regular, even though it was not shown in extrovert ways. It was just as natural as life and I could not doubt it.

Guilt is another story, because my mother feels guilty of my health problems, as she was working in a lab with ethanol and other nasty stinky solvents when she was pregnant. This had a tremendous impact on me, just because I have never been able to share anything with my parents because of this. I have to pretent I am ok all the time for everything. She had taken the habit of worrying too much for me. So I had to soothe her guilt.
Now she has leukemia. And this was a big change for me, appart from the sadness. I came to notice the damage of guilt, and how it has impacted my life in many ways! It was repetitive in my life that even doctors make mistakes and that I suffer from it, mistakes and work badly done seem to always be for me! And as a result, I have feelings about finding people being really guilty! I want to trial people, that they be judged and condemned for the consequence of their acts, when they have created permanent damages into others. It is truly normal as you say, but not when you are sensitive. I am hurt too much and this is not good for me.
Unfortunately, I am overcoming this problem thanks to my mother's cancer. Now I can fully feel that we are on the same side as victims. She cannot feel guilty anymore.

When somebody says "sorry", it usually means that they are not going to repair what is "just an accident". I hate this word when it does not mean they are going to buy another of what they have broken! And yes children are bothered by this. Guilt is not only what goes to court. If a child brakes something, she cries , and says "I did not do it on purpose", in an intent to escape the angry reaction. Parents anger is very fearful I guess, I never experienced it. They are made to be felt they are bad, and not so often proposed to do something as a repairing act. A child would not cry if she knew she just had to do an extra job in the household, and be thanked for repairing the damage! This would change the sense of responsability that lack in many adults, just because they remember the guilt at unconcsious level and do not want to be condemned.

Sorry for the long personal example, just wanted to embody how much our opinions have their roots into what shocked us most.
 

Integra

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Xisca said:
When done properly, we do not notice that there have been some shaming!

To be honest, I can't even imagine what this feels like. But your example with members of the forum shaming away Paleo people helped me imagine what shaming others in a subtle way could look like. But it's still very hard for me to think of shaming as a useful social tool (even less how to properly use it!) though I can see how it can be useful.

Xisca said:
When I started the course of social therapy, I could hardly make the difference between shame and guilt.

Me neither. Now I can but I'm still trying to understand intense feelings of shyness. It feels similar to shame, but it doesn't have a negative connotation. But I do catch myself blushing a lot and it's really embarrassing if it's around other people. Shyness for me is like you want to hide, run away; not so much because you yourself are bad, but to avoid someone's pressuring gaze. I can't explain it. Is shyness somehow related to being ashamed?

Or is it also an emotion with narcissistic origins... ? ? ?

pimpnamedraypeat said:
You say shame is healthier than guilt. I don't understand how that is possible. Guilt is something you feel when you have done something that has harmed someone. Shame is amoral. Shame is a punishment for breaking societal expectations or disregarding societal injuctions.

Because I think you and Xisca are already on the right track here, and I don't meant to measure which emotion is less healthy for whom and in what circumstances, I'd just like to add that guilt, though by definition and taken out of context is probably healthier than shame as it's action-oriented rather than person or trait/identity-oriented, it can still be very pathological.

For example, you can sponge up guilt from your parents, as well your religious background (raise ya hand if your Catholic, haha!)... Even from your country's history. Racists? Fascists? Colonizers? Genocides? You name it, our ancestors did it. Just pick your poison and the extent to which you associate with this culture or that culture, you might also to an extent feel personally responsible (but in reality: guilty) for events in the past that had very little to do with you.

I mean there's all sorts of guilt that are pathological because they are either inherited and/or unconscious, or inappropriate in intensity or duration with regards to the actual situation. To my understanding, these intensified feelings of guilt then are due to unresolved childhood experiences from which we (justifiably or not) carry guilt. I'm Freudian like that when it comes to these things.

The third way in which guilt can be viewed as pathological then would be... imagine guilt as a very sophisticated mechanism that allows you to feel better than others--after all, you can't be a sinner if you call yourself one, hehe--and I say sophisticated because you may not be even aware of duping yourself like that. It may feel very real, and you may have very solid reasons for why you should feel that way, or have brought yourself into circumstances which do warrant a significant amount of guilt. I think the cause for this is the same as in the previous case, but this time, instead of saying:
"You're right, I'm really guilty and I'm the worst," you're kind of saying:
"You're right, I'm really guilty, but that means I'm better than all of you because of this capacity to feel such an enormous guilt."

pimpnamedraypeat said:
The problem is that we shame (i.e devalue and reject) the person not the behavior. This results in toxic shame which leads to personality disorders. In middle eastern and eastern cultures this results in an obsession with face. In western cultures, narcissism.

What you said here was a series of Aha! moments for me, thank you. First the way you break down shame makes it so functional. To devalue and reject/abandon. Brilliant. And then what you said, that face-saving (honor-bound) and narcissisim (shame-based) cultural trends are literally different manifestations of the same thing... Mindblowing. This is so new to me I will have to chew on the idea for a couple of days. I get it but I don't really get it. I've never seen it that way. Wow.
 
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Xisca

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Shyness for me is like you want to hide, run away; not so much because you yourself are bad, but to avoid someone's pressuring gaze. I can't explain it. Is shyness somehow related to being ashamed?
No, it is just what you said, re-read you, hide, go away... it is just fear! Shyness is a low level of fear, same gap as terror is a high level of fear.
Many things are working like a thermometer, but when we do not see it, they seem to be different. In a way, cold and warm and hot are the same thing, with different levels!
Then fear, at physiological level, is about running away or hiding, and when you feel shy, you can track your body language, so you will know where it is and how it feels physically. It is personal to each person though with common points.
But I do catch myself blushing a lot and it's really embarrassing if it's around other people.
lol don't be ashame of your poor little fear!

Shame is about not fitting, being embarrassed. It is about exclusion, but not for the same reason as abandonment. Abandonment is to considere the person is not interesting, does not deserve attention.
 
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Xisca

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"When done properly, we do not notice that there have been some shaming"
To be honest, I can't even imagine what this feels like.
Go abroad and feel you do not fit because you do not know how to behave, you feel ackward, you do not know at what distance to stand. Most people with good will try to imitate the customs, may be try to say hello with the body language they notice... Like with japaneese. All that you see that is different, has been taught through shaming. But the healthy shaming.
That is why I said we do not notice it.
The type of shame we notice is the one that has left scars and unease even when we are in our own culture.
Of course children mainly imitate, but they can feel they do not fit, just imagining doing something, and they intuitively know if this is or this is not matching what they already know about the expected behaviour.

But your example with members of the forum shaming away Paleo people helped me imagine what shaming others in a subtle way could look like. But it's still very hard for me to think of shaming as a useful social tool
Makes feel to belong instead of not fitting. It helps to know who is like you so you know what you can expect, like the sort of food you speak about for designing your diet. We are mammels and we do no more live with people that have the excat same customs, and it is not so easy, so we try to look for our likes, our tribe. Many groups on face book have a name showing pride! There is the gay pride etc, all to reverse the shame when it is abusive.

Children reproduce this at school and it could be a great place of learning for this sort of knowledge too!
 

Xisca

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Edit: only in the pic shows, can you not be offended by the following sentence! It is a photo in spanish... help, porque la photo is invisible!

If you do not understand, it is because you did not study enough!
(joke intended....)

19113904_528099077544344_6189589439771078872_n.jpg
 

Xisca

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@charlie I followed instructions and posted this photo from a url in facebook, and it did appear in the page before I send the post...
I like it because it is more than a joke and says a lot about ways of teaching.
Oops, edit, it seems that other people can see it....
 
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Xisca

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RP quote
Aggression, helplessness, and reduced ability to learn are typically produced in animals by social isolation, and it's clear that certain kinds of family environment produce the same conditions in children.
...and certain kinds of school environment too.
There seem to be no isolation in school, but we have ways to isolate someone who is physically there!
The school class and system prohibits talking between pupils.
But pupils who want to talk with their neighbours, according to Stephen Porges polyvagal thoery, are just trying to lower their stress by the very mammalian way, which is called "social engagement".
If the right sort of talking, by working in small groups, was promoted, children would work better, and would use their natural desire to learn, understand and solve problems. It works even with animals, as proves the clicker training method (which gives joy and new interest even to old dogs)
At the ANS level, "social isolation" as said by RP is the reverse of "social engagement". Social engagement uses the vago ventral nerve. Helplessness and impotency feelings come from the freeze response in the vago dorsal. And each branch interfere with the other... On the other side, agression is what can come out uncontrolled when a person goes out of any type of freeze response. The freeze compresses, and then the energy comes out as a bullet pushed by compressed air.
 

Integra

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Edit: only in the pic shows, can you not be offended by the following sentence! It is a photo in spanish... help, porque la photo is invisible!

If you do not understand, it is because you did not study enough!
(joke intended....)

Comprendo la foto. Entiendo lo que me demostraste. La vergüenza ya no es un misterio. :D My parents were photo number one, but now I think they could have learned so much from the honest and hardworking street cleaner... Thank you!
 

Xisca

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Ho, you can see the photo? I cannot, so it comes from my computer!?
lol here street cleaners are not hardworkers! And I hear people saying "why work hard when it does not change the salary?" Lack of motivation is not natural, results not proportionate to effort neither... That is why people often fail to use the so called positive reinforcement, because what counts 1st is behaviour, not the lure. That is about making strategy.

I think school teaching should be organised around making strategies: What can I DO to get a result. For math problem or understanding biology. We are here all so motivated to learn hard about metabolism! I tryied to get help from a friend/biology teacher, and even to understand glycolisis or cori cycle, etc, no use...

Comprendo la foto. Entiendo lo que me demostraste. La vergüenza ya no es un misterio.
Estoy orgullosa de ti! ;)
 
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Me neither. Now I can but I'm still trying to understand intense feelings of shyness. It feels similar to shame, but it doesn't have a negative connotation. But I do catch myself blushing a lot and it's really embarrassing if it's around other people. Shyness for me is like you want to hide, run away; not so much because you yourself are bad, but to avoid someone's pressuring gaze. I can't explain it. Is shyness somehow related to being ashamed?

Or is it also an emotion with narcissistic origins... ? ? ?

It's a result of low self worth or low rank. Why does someones gaze feel pressuring? Because you are so beneath them.

For example, you can sponge up guilt from your parents, as well your religious background (raise ya hand if your Catholic, haha!)... Even from your country's history. Racists? Fascists? Colonizers? Genocides? You name it, our ancestors did it. Just pick your poison and the extent to which you associate with this culture or that culture, you might also to an extent feel personally responsible (but in reality: guilty) for events in the past that had very little to do with you.

White guilt isn't guilt it's shame. You're ashamed for being white (i.e. oppressor, evil, colonizer) not because of anything you personally have done. It's an identity thing not an action thing.

Catholic guilt is more complicated. you could feel guilty about having sexual desires or for doing this or that deed. Or it could be guilt for being born a sinful human being in which case that is not guilt. It is shame.

The third way in which guilt can be viewed as pathological then would be... imagine guilt as a very sophisticated mechanism that allows you to feel better than others--after all, you can't be a sinner if you call yourself one, hehe--and I say sophisticated because you may not be even aware of duping yourself like that. It may feel very real, and you may have very solid reasons for why you should feel that way, or have brought yourself into circumstances which do warrant a significant amount of guilt. I think the cause for this is the same as in the previous case, but this time, instead of saying:
"You're right, I'm really guilty and I'm the worst," you're kind of saying:
"You're right, I'm really guilty, but that means I'm better than all of you because of this capacity to feel such an enormous guilt."

Sounds like Catholicism. Or liberal value signaling. Public displays of penitence to show how morally superior you are. "I care more about the earth/ refugees/ women/ blacks than you. See how much it pains me?"

What you said here was a series of Aha! moments for me, thank you. First the way you break down shame makes it so functional. To devalue and reject/abandon. Brilliant. And then what you said, that face-saving (honor-bound) and narcissisim (shame-based) cultural trends are literally different manifestations of the same thing... Mindblowing. This is so new to me I will have to chew on the idea for a couple of days. I get it but I don't really get it. I've never seen it that way. Wow.

read the last psychiatrist . he has over 700 posts so here are just a few

The other ego epidemic

http://archive.li/3aHB6

you may be s narcissist

https://archive.li/QRr6P

on female narcissists (borderlines)

https://archive.li/qHNAV

The Last Psychiatrist: The Near Death Of A Salesman
 

REOSIRENS

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Here in my place private schools are doing well because environment is more explorative...they don't throw subjects after subjects like government schools..


Private schools are focusing in more technical skills ... Such as ability of socialize and interact in a more global society ... Most of private schools here have a very international class room ... even some teacher are from different parts of Europe or world ...this brings different cultures and points of view that added up to more flexible learning process with less ingrained bias...

But point is they don't imprison children in academic authoritative set of rules to just get straight A's ... But start helping them to have the social skills and interaction for adaptation in a much broader environment ... Most of these children leave these private schools speaking three to four different languages and able to interact and blend in much broader sectors of society

They teach in a more interactive way ... Broadening thinking and perception
 

LUH 3417

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"Skinner's most explicit statement of his philosophy, ultimately one of world control, is contained in his book Walden
Two. written in 1948. The book describes a perfect communist Utopia run along behaviorist lines.
In Walden Two society is run by Frazier, a straw man designed to dramatize Skinner's beliefs about human conditioning. Below Frazier in the pigeon-pecking order are six
Planners, who in turn run Managers, who are held responsible
for the "controlees" who perform the menial tasks of daily life.
Members of the Walden Two society follow a puritanical "Code of
Conduct," that applies to virtually every aspect of day-to-day life,
including the forbidding of midnight snacks. Education is a subset of "human engineering," and children are turned over to the group by the parents. "Home is no place to raise children,"
drawls Frazier, his philosophy one that has seemingly been
adopted by many current-day shrinks and social workers.

The essence of Walden Two is the application of positive and negative reinforcement to create a smoothly running state, free of such unwanted encumbrances as crime and choice.

Skinner followed up his vision of Walden Two in 1971, with his vastly hyped nonfiction book Beyond Freedom and Dignity, awarded the honor of being the most important book of the year
by the New York Times. "What is needed is more control, not less," Skinner reminded us. [7]
 

LUH 3417

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In 1819 in Prussia the first compulsory schooling for children was instituted. According to educator John Taylor
Gatto, society in Prussia was divided "into children who will become policy makers; children who will become assistants to
policy makers (the engineers, architects, lawyers, and doctors); and the children who will be the vast, massed, used.
"Prussia sets up a three-tier school system, in which one half of one percent of the population is taught to think. They go to school called academic Five and a half percent of the population go to Realschulen, where they partially learn to
think, but not completely, because Prussia believed their defeat at the hands of Napoleon was caused by people thinking for themselves at times of stress on the battlefield. They were
going to see to it that scientifically this couldn't happen. The lowest 94%, (that's some pyramid, right?) went to volkschulen, where they were to learn harmony, obedience, freedom from
stressful thinking, how to follow orders. They worked out a system that would in fact guarantee such results. In the
volkschulen, it was to divide whole ideas (which really simultaneously participate in math, science, social thinking,
language and art) into subjects which hardly had existed before, to divide the subjects further into units; to divide the time into small enough units of time. With enough variations in the course
of a day, no one would know what was going on." [1]
In the middle of the last century a member of the secret Skull and Bones society, following in the Prussian tradition, set in motion an American educational revolution that has subverted
the entire system toward the goals of the New World Order.
That man was Daniel Coit Gilman, first president of Johns Hopkins University and of the Carnegie Institution. Gilman
studied Hegelian philosophy at the University of Berlin in 1854- 55. Also at the University of Berlin during this time was the earlier mentioned Wilhelm Wundt, who was key in applying
Hegelian-styled psychology to the world.
 
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Holy social Darwinism, batman. Public schools in the U.S. destroy intelligence; they don't allow "low intelligence" people to foster and grow. If anything, they allow incongruent, often selfish ideologies to fester in echo chambers, and then take root in young prisoners.

When was the last time you've been in a public school?

The point is that public schools are incredibly cheap (relative to alternatives). So they don't have to produce much to be a reasonable social investment.
 

DaveFoster

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The point is that public schools are incredibly cheap (relative to alternatives). So they don't have to produce much to be a reasonable social investment.
As a recent attendee of a few public schools, I will say they hold no such benefit, and in fact they have a pronounced negative effect on child development. In the absence of an internet, intellectual centers have tangible benefits, but even in such cases, mandated education of "the masses" does not yield benefit, but it rather allows for a linear structure for enculturation, and the school system has always had this purpose, whether initially in America as the patriotic and quasi-religious curriculum, or now in the form of cultural Marxism.

An analogous argument for the need for "socialization" often appears for the military, which provides "structure" to those in need. This "structure" manifests in the form of psychological trauma and increased prevalence of heart disease. Similar trauma surfaces in the separation from kids from their parents during early developmental stages, as with daycare, preschool, and other abhorrent institutions. The belief in the necessity of structure derives from an inherent misanthropic worldview: kids need "tough love," inherently function as lazy and unintelligent (or at the very least, unmotivated), and they need institutions to instill in them a sense of purpose and identity. Humans require individual emotional connection with a parent, usually the mother, but boys especially require a father. The belief in an extradition of parenting to a communal institution, largely due to its inefficiency, which manifests in the form of unapproachable authorities, coldness, political correctness and mandated rhetoric, provokes feelings of neglect, deviance, and malignant personality development.

School, spanking, emotional separation, distance, and neglect all derail the healthful development of the child, and it's truly degenerate, indeed satanic to reject the dependency of child on its maternal and paternal figures in favor of a Pink-Floyd-esque, Another Brick in the Wall system that neither provides tangible skills, nor refrains from causing intense emotional pain and suffering to each and every life within its influence.
 
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As a recent attendee of a few public schools, I will say they hold no such benefit, and in fact they have a pronounced negative effect on child development. In the absence of an internet, intellectual centers have tangible benefits, but even in such cases, mandated education of "the masses" does not yield benefit, but it rather allows for a linear structure for enculturation, and the school system has always had this purpose, whether initially in America as the patriotic and quasi-religious curriculum, or now in the form of cultural Marxism.

Even if we accept that public schools have a net negative effect on child development (that's debatable), that doesn't necessarily mean they have a greater net negative effect than the alternatives (being raised and educated by their parent(s) or other caretaker). Not everybody gets heavily indoctrinated by public schools. Who's to say the kids that are most susceptible wouldn't have been susceptible to other forms of brainwashing regardless of how they were raised?

An analogous argument for the need for "socialization" often appears for the military, which provides "structure" to those in need. This "structure" manifests in the form of psychological trauma and increased prevalence of heart disease. Similar trauma surfaces in the separation from kids from their parents during early developmental stages, as with daycare, preschool, and other abhorrent institutions. The belief in the necessity of structure derives from an inherent misanthropic worldview: kids need "tough love," inherently function as lazy and unintelligent (or at the very least, unmotivated), and they need institutions to instill in them a sense of purpose and identity.

Many parents hold misanthropic or religious worldviews. Daycares and preschools are cheap, but parents foregoing their careers to raise their children (possibly just as poorly or worse than their teachers and peers would have) has enormous costs.

Humans require individual emotional connection with a parent, usually the mother, but boys especially require a father. The belief in an extradition of parenting to a communal institution, largely due to its inefficiency, which manifests in the form of unapproachable authorities, coldness, political correctness and mandated rhetoric, provokes feelings of neglect, deviance, and malignant personality development.

Many proponents of public schools don't believe that optimal parenting can be effectively replaced by public schools. Rather, they believe that poor parenting or no parenting at all can be effectively replaced by public schools. Keep in mind the majority of parents are not good parents.

School, spanking, emotional separation, distance, and neglect all derail the healthful development of the child, and it's truly degenerate, indeed satanic to reject the dependency of child on its maternal and paternal figures in favor of a Pink-Floyd-esque, Another Brick in the Wall system that neither provides tangible skills, nor refrains from causing intense emotional pain and suffering to each and every life within its influence.

Most parents spank their kids. It's unfortunate but it's the reality. To re-iterate my main point though, public schools can be cost-effective without replacing good parents; there are enough bad parents out there to make public education a reasonable societal investment.
 
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DButter

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I'm thinking this might be a good thread to share the podcast interview I did over the weekend, with a gentleman in Northern California who founded Capay Atelier a few years back (his "school" as an alternative educational opportunity to mainstream approaches). He references Gatto toward the end as one of several influences.



If you listen and care to share, I'd love to know what people think.
 

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