Schizophrenia drugs

[HDD]

My sons psych. prescribed a 4th drug for him to take. It is another schizophrenia drug. He already has Lexapro, zyprexa, and another one that I can't recall. He keeps asking for an ADHD drug and she keeps adding to his cocktail. He says he isn't taking any of the medications and he is not depressed. He doesn't tell the doc that he's not taking the meds. He does get very anxious in social situations so avoids them.

It is my assumption that he has estrogen dominance and hypothyroidism because he is my son. I am attributing the add, anxiety, shyness, depression to this conclusion. Am I mistaken to assume this? I hoped he would try cynoplus/cynomel but he is not interested. He puts a lot of trust in the doctors and he thinks I am wrong in not going to doctors.

Would tianeptine be something to try, if he will? Would cynoplus help? Any other ideas? Just in case he will try something I suggest.

 

[jyb]

I've had those symptoms since birth. Not ADHD, but lethargy so a focus problem. I think those are all classic symptoms of hypothyroidism, it's the same old story. And the best start is the diet, as usual, possibly with some thyroid supplement. Once the diet is implemented then a lot of the anxiety is killed, and there's no way back from there. You just have to forward him articles connecting those symptoms to hypothyroidism, maybe the original RP articles. Because really, anyone would prefer to solve the root cause rather than taking drugs, and those articles provide a way to understand the root cause.

 

[mandance]

Diane, sorry you are having trouble trying to get things sorted out. Why does he want meds if he isnt depressed...just for anxiety? Why do they want to give him all these drugs? I am confused as to why the need for all of them just for anxiety. Is he doing therapy like CBT ? Thats a better treatment for anxiety and depression than drugs imo.

JYB, what is brain lethargy?

 

[nograde]

Minocycline

Look here: Scientists shocked to find antibiotics alleviate symptoms of schizophrenia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 69121.html

Also google pyroluria (on pubmed, so much quackery), which was once (and by some still) considered as the main cause of this disease. Pyroles bind up vit b6 and zinc, so megadoses of those help according to proponents. There is also a gut connection because some pyrole precursors are produced by certain bacteria. This may be the (real) reason why Minocycline helps.

 

[Mittir]

Is your son on RP style eating? If he refuses to take thyroid supplement you can
give him a pro-thyroid diet. Chicken neck or fish head soup has good amount of
thyroid in it. Jenn has a post on how she makes chicken neck soup and
she buys neck in bulk. Here is a quote from a RP's article. You may want to read the whole article for better understanding of psychological diseases.

Therapies that have been successful in treating “schizophrenia” include penicillin, sleep therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, carbon dioxide therapy, thyroid, acetazolamide, lithium and vitamins. These all make fundamental contributions to the restoration of biological energy. Antibiotics, for example, lower endotoxin formation in the intestine, protect against the induction by endotoxin of serotonin, histamine, estrogen, and cortisol. Acetazolamide causes the tissues to retain carbon dioxide, and increased carbon dioxide acidifies cells, preventing serotonin secretion.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ties.shtml

 

[HDD]

Thank you all for your input. Very much appreciated. He does eat somewhat Peat diet because he lives with me, although, he still consumes wheat, pufa, etc. I am on the outside of information concerning diagnosis/health because of privacy act and I am only privy to what my son tells me. I know his condition is very difficult. I think I might try printing small pieces of information for him from Peat's articles. I have been talking to both of my sons for quite some time on the likelihood of being hypothyroid. All of my children, at one time or another, have exhibited symptoms.

Ray Peat mentions the use of penicillin in his article on schizophrenia, so using minocycline could definitely help. I plan on ordering today.

I should be able to obtain fish heads at local fish markets. I have made a fish stock before, it is quite smelly, but it makes a great clam chowder. Thanks for posting that, Mittir.

Does anyone know if makes a difference if the chicken necks are not pasture raised? The only source I can find for pasture raised won't be delivering until early Dec. and the pick up point is an hour away.

 

[4peatssake]

Jenn has said she orders chicken necks in bulk from Azure Standard.
Azure Standard Chicken Necks

 

[HDD]

Thanks 4ps, but unfortunately they don't deliver to Fl. It seems that if it is a chicken neck it would still have same thyroid value even if fed corn and soy.?

 

[charlie]

I think it would be hard to control dose of thyroid with chicken necks.

 

[4peatssake]

Thanks 4ps, but unfortunately they don't deliver to Fl. It seems that if it is a chicken neck it would still have same thyroid value even if fed corn and soy.?

I honestly don't know HDD and I wondered the same thing when I read what they are being fed.
Charlie keeps chickens, maybe he knows.

 

[charlie]

Thanks 4ps, but unfortunately they don't deliver to Fl. It seems that if it is a chicken neck it would still have same thyroid value even if fed corn and soy.?

I honestly don't know HDD and I wondered the same thing when I read what they are being fed. Charlie keeps chickens, maybe he knows.

Even if its the same thyroid value I would think you would still be picking up the soy and corn from their diet. You are what you eat type of a thing. They eat corn/soy, you eat them therefor eating corn/soy. Maybe its not enough to make a difference though?

 

[HDD]

I think it would be hard to control dose of thyroid with chicken necks.

True, but adding soups and dishes prepared with the "thyroid" stock might help some until I can convince him to take cynoplus.

Initially, he was interested inT3 only, but I wanted him to do both and slowly. I also wanted temps. and pulse.

Any thoughts on T3 only?

 

[charlie]

True, but adding soups and dishes prepared with the "thyroid" stock might help some until I can convince him to take cynoplus.

True.

Any thoughts on T3 only?

Ray Peat did not do well on it, others have not either. It does seem like a small amount of people need to do T3 only but for the most part it seems T4 and T3 is the way to go. Or even an NDT with T1, T2, T3, and T4. Ray Peat did NDT until they messed up the formula and then he switched to synthetic.

 

[4peatssake]

Any thoughts on T3 only?

Ray Peat's experience with T3 only.

When I used only Cytomel, any little stress would make me suddenly hypothyroid, and my heart would stop several times in a minute; when I started using some thyroid, USP, that contained both T4 and T3 it stopped happening.

I notice that he usually recommends them both, or just cynoplus. I've not know him to recommend T3 only.

 

[HDD]

That was my reason for having him take both. He lifts weights and knows that some bodybuilders use T3 only.

Have you heard Ray Peat discuss pyroluria?

It seems niacin might help in schizophrenia. I hate to use that term, but I suppose accepting that he is exhibiting symptoms (according to the doctor) might help me to find real answers for him.

 

[Mittir]

If you skim off the chicken fat it will be quite safer even if it was grain fed.
If he starts feeling better drinking neck soup, it will be easier for you to convince
him to try thyroid supplement. At least he will crave soups.
RP discussed in last KMUD interview that in past people used to get around
30 mg of Armour equivalent from chicken and fish stews.
I remember reading articles where psychologists gave thyroid hormone
to their patient with good results. I think testing his TSH and total T3
is useful before he starts thyroid med. I believe his total T3 will definitely
be below average, which is around 130.
RP did experiment with very large dose of T3.
He does recommend using very small dose of T3 in the beginning
to gauge the need for T3 and then one can convert this to combo of T4 +T3.
Here is an RP quote from Danny Roddy Site

Try a sixth of a 25 mcg cynomel tablet at first, and watch for the effects in the first two hours. According to what you notice, you could continue that once a day, or twice a day, for about 10 days, then you could try some with each meal, for another week. #2 and #3: when you find out how the T3 affects you, you could change to the combination (Armour or Thyrolar or Cynoplus); the amounts I mentioned would be similar to 12 mcg of T3 per day.

He also recommended to another person that one should start with very small dose of T3
RP mentioned in an interview that there is a connection between schizophrenia patient
being heavy tobacco smoker and need for niacin /nicotine.

 

[4peatssake]

Have you heard Ray Peat discuss pyroluria?

I've not heard him mention it.

It seems niacin might help in schizophrenia. I hate to use that term, but I suppose accepting that he is exhibiting symptoms (according to the doctor) might help me to find real answers for him.

I think it's wise to adopt the same approach with that term as you have done with MS. Those labels and the inherent cultural biases are inaccurate at best and stress producing.

The use of medical terms tends to give authority to the people who are in charge of defining the terms, and it can give the impression of objectivity when there really isn’t any scientific validity behind the terms. In their historical senses, “crazy” (flawed) and “insane” (unsound) are probably more objective terms than the medically-invented terms, dementia praecox (premature idiocy) or schizophrenia (divided mind).

The problem is in the history of psychosis as a medical idea. About 100 years ago, attempts were made to classify psychoses by their symptoms, unifying a great variety of old diagnostic categories into two groups, manic-depressive mood disorders, and “dementia praecox,” or schizophrenia, which (as indicated by its name, premature dementia) was considered to be progressive and incurable. Several kinds of mental disorder were found to have clear causes, including vitamin deficiencies and various poisons and infections, but the idea of a certain thing called schizophrenia still persists.

Not all psychiatrists and psychologists subscribed to the idea of a unitary psychosis, defined by a variety of symptoms. A positive contribution of Freudian psychoanalysis (and its congeners and competitors) was that it made people think in terms of causes and the possibility of cures, instead of hopelessness, stigmatization, isolation and eradication. Although Freud expressed the thought that biological causes and cures would eventually be found, the profession he founded was not sympathetic to the idea of physiological therapies.

Thyroid, insomnia, and the insanities: Commonalities in disease

I'm not sure if you've read this article by Peat A Biophysical Approach to Altered Consciousness but in it he does note that high doses of niacin has cured schizophrenia.

The fact that large doses of niacin can often cure schizophrenia (Hoffer, 1966; Cott, ASA Publication) suggests that in this disease the energy charge of neurons may be low. This would affect the ability of cells to retain certain ions and the known mineral changes that occur in schizophrenia (Newbold, 1972b) may be similar to those that appear in general stress reactions, though possibly with the brain being most affected.

 

[HDD]

If you skim off the chicken fat it will be quite safer even if it was grain fed.
If he starts feeling better drinking neck soup, it will be easier for you to convince
him to try thyroid supplement. At least he will crave soups.
RP discussed in last KMUD interview that in past people used to get around
30 mg of Armour equivalent from chicken and fish stews.
I remember reading articles where psychologists gave thyroid hormone
to their patient with good results. I think testing his TSH and total T3
is useful before he starts thyroid med. I believe his total T3 will definitely
be below average, which is around 130.
RP did experiment with very large dose of T3.
He does recommend using very small dose of T3 in the beginning
to gauge the need for T3 and then one can convert this to combo of T4 +T3.
Here is an RP quote from Danny Roddy Site

Try a sixth of a 25 mcg cynomel tablet at first, and watch for the effects in the first two hours. According to what you notice, you could continue that once a day, or twice a day, for about 10 days, then you could try some with each meal, for another week. #2 and #3: when you find out how the T3 affects you, you could change to the combination (Armour or Thyrolar or Cynoplus); the amounts I mentioned would be similar to 12 mcg of T3 per day.

He also recommended to another person that one should start with very small dose of T3
RP mentioned in an interview that there is a connection between schizophrenia patient
being heavy tobacco smoker and need for niacin /nicotine.

Thank you.
He does love chicken broth soups. He seems to really enjoy more than others in family and will eat leftovers the next day.

He also picks up smoking off and on to relieve his stress. When he smokes, he stresses over smoking and worries about lung cancer.

Does Niacinamide have the same benefits as niacin? I know there is a thread about it that I will find and read.

I have his TSH somewhere but will need to order the total T3.

 

[HDD]

"I'm not sure if you've read this article by Peat A Biophysical Approach to Altered Consciousness but in it he does note that high doses of niacin has cured schizophrenia."

Ray Peat wrote:
"The fact that large doses of niacin can often cure schizophrenia (Hoffer, 1966; Cott, ASA Publication) suggests that in this disease the energy charge of neurons may be low. This would affect the ability of cells to retain certain ions and the known mineral changes that occur in schizophrenia (Newbold, 1972b) may be similar to those that appear in general stress reactions, though possibly with the brain being most affected."


No, I haven't read that article. Thank you. I did stumble upon a reference to Hoffer using niacin to treat schizophrenia.

I am not sure if the Dr. has told him he is schizophrenic. I know he looks up the medications prescribed like I have and now does not want to see her anymore.

 

[mandance]

I am having a hard time believing your Son has that diagnosis or problem unless there are some obvious signs. But depression, anxiety and ADD issues do not come anywhere close to being grounds to believe someone is truely mentally ill. I question this doctors skills and experience as well or how many patients he or she has seen to be able to determine that for certain.

Going through withdrawals, I have often feared going crazy because of how horrible it is...and I have asked my therapist a million times, am I going to lose my mind? He told me that the chances of becoming mentally ill after the age of 30 are something like 1 out of 100k and in which case...the people that do, break from reality, usually in once instance. For example...like a mother who is bathing her child and all the sudden drowns them and has no idea what she is doing... UNless something like that has happened to your son, I really do not think he is mentally ill. some people have milder mental illness..and hear voices etc. But again, severe depression and anxiety can often seem like a more severe problem when in fact it isnt. But im not a doctor, its just my gut that tells me this is not true.