Schizophrenia And Nutrition

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
Hello everybody,

I started incorporating some elements of this diet/lifestyle a few month ago due to acne and cognitive problems. I was never too strict about it because I thought I only had some "minor issues".

Now things have gotten a bit more serious for me.
My grand mother has schizophrenia, as well as my aunt who has killed herself one month ago due to that illness. There are also two other persons who suffer from this disease in my more distant family.
I never feared getting ill since I felt pretty normal and also started studying with a lot of friends and quite a happy life.

But in the last months, things have changed and searching for early symptoms has really opened my eyes.
Early "negative symptoms" are cognitive problems, progressing isolation, lack of motivation, loss of ability to express oneself properly and some others - I have experienced them all and they are getting worse as time passes by. Especially having to do a lot of studying and oral exams increased my stress levels to being unbearable. I was not able to pass the exams so I took a break for a semester trying to study in a more relaxed manner. That's were I am now.
Yesterday, my mother told me of a distant family member getting ill after starting her studies and failing to complete them, so now I'm really concerned.

I read all Ray Peats articles which also mentioned schizophrenia and it made sense. I'm trying to do the best I can nutrition wise but I'm quite reluctant to take any supplements (especially thyroid since it's not available in Germany) but I don't know if nutrition alone is sufficient for me as I have always been a really stressed person with freezing hands and feet, with disturbed hormones and with some unpleasant digestive issues (had severe gas problems since my early childhood).

That's the reason I am asking for some advice: how are the chances in getting healthy temps and pulse without any supplements? I could cook some chicken neck soup, maybe this would be enough already thyroid wise? But how do I know how to do the right dosage?
What do you think about going to the doctors? My aunt also tried to cure herself on her own (with a diet called "fatty diet" or something like that) and never believed she was really ill.

I would really appreciate any thoughts on that!

Addition: My aunt and grandma both suffer from hypothyroidism! Ray Peat's theories seem to make sense a lot.
 

lexis

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
430
Have you tried cyproheptadine ? Its quite effective for your condition.
 
OP
J

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
I haven't tried cyproheptadine nor any other supplements/drugs (only exception: I bought pregnenolone two weeks ago and took it (50mg for 2 days) but experienced an immediate increase in hairloss so I stopped taking it).
I have read about it quite a few times but don't really know how it works. I will educate myself about its effects. Thank you for this idea!
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I think there is a good chance you can improve these issues. I think I have come across evidence that diet can make a difference to issues sometimes labelled schizophrenia, as well as some other conditions that have been given mental health system labels. Don't have them at hand, though. Getting eefficient energy production going can help with all sorts of things.

It's worth making sure you get adequate nourishment - all sorts of thing can go amiss without it. If you enter a typical day's diet into cronometer dot com, you can get an idea whether you are getting standard recommended intakes of minerals and vitamins. You can check that you are getting a reasonable amount of protein (80g minimum, some people do better with more) and roughly how many calories. It's good to get more calcium than phosphorus, probably less iron than RRDI unless you have tested particularly low, and of course as low PUFA as possible. Quite a few people here supplement vit-E and vit-K. Some also supplement other vitamins and minerals. And some of us use hormone supplements, but you generally have to have good nourishment in place for these to have good effects, so it's probably good to start with that.

I scanned back to your first thread. Women are supposed to grow and change shape as we mature through late teens and early twenties. I may be off-track here, but if you are trying to maintain your old shape, maybe you are under-eating? 3000 cals is typical for non-dieting women at your age. I wish I had known that when I was a teenager. (This bit is not from Peat.)

At some stage, you might want to try the progest-e if you have estrogen dominance issues - you mentioned hormone issues, and/or chicken neck or fish head soup, as natural thyroid foods.

If you haven't yet, you may want to try some tactic for raising CO2, eg bag breathing, attending to breathing habits, and making sure you get regular red light (orange - near infra-red), either from sunlight or strong incandescents. CO2 calms nerves, amongst many other good things. Regular red light is necessary for efficient cellular energy production - night-time darkness and gloomy winters can be a stress.
 
OP
J

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
Thank you for your reply Tara.
I also have great hopes that this diet and lifestyle will have a huge effect on my issues. I never thought of me as "ill", only as stressed out, having some hormonal problems (causing acne) and developing some cognitive issues as bad memory and a decrease in speed of thinking and fluent speaking (but not to a noticeable extent, there were only subtle changes in the period of the last year I guess). But reading about this illness was an eye opener, my symptoms could be the first signs so I want to be extra careful.

Nutrition wise, I changed some things as introducing dairy, eating less/no starch, eating low PUFA, more sugar, eliminating foods that cause problems. I have problems with the availability of some foods- perfectly ride fruit are hard to get, oysters are expensive and not available in my hometown, only non grass fed meat etc.

A typical day would consist of:

Coffee + gelatin/sugar
2 eggs In coconut oil
Fruit (oranges, melon, grapes) a lot throughout the whole day
Mussels in coconut oil
Orange or apple juice
Salt
Weekly liver
Some cheese
And recently added some milk, trying to increase the amount my stomach can tolerate well
Some egg shell powder
Since I live at my parents house I often eat small amounts of their meals as well (they are influenced by my nutritional thoughts a lot and avoid PUFA, wheat and green vegetables).

I checked my diet in cronometer a few times and the vitamins looked ok, only calcium was low so I added the egg shell powder.
Maybe I should test my vitamin d levels since the winter is starting now.
I will have a closer look at my vitamin E as well.

I also stopped trying to loose weight by eating less. I started incorporating a 40min relaxed walk in the mornings, sometimes I will do 15min of a light body weight workout.
On a typical day I eat 2000-2500kcal so I will give eating more a try! I find it a bit difficult to eat such a huge amount of calories while focussing on fruit so that will hopefully get better when I tolerate milk better. But I think it's a really great advise to stop trying to maintain the old shape and body while the body is still going through the normal change, so I will try to loose all thoughts of getting thinner, there are way more important things to concentrate on.

I would like to try Progest-E but it's hard to get here. I think one has to order from countries like Mexico and even then it's difficult to get it through customs. But I will try if there is any possibility.

I also tried some bag breathing the last weeks. I always had a feeling of not getting enough oxygen quickly (after 30seconds), maybe because the bag I used was to small. Yesterday, I researched the buteyko method and this seems to work better, so I will carry on with this.

I ordered an incandescent light bulb (300watt, 240volt) and will try it out as well.

Do you think my diet is good enough to add some thyroid to it? I did not notice huge changes of temperature/ pulse yet.
Morning temp: 36,2C
2 hours later and throughout the day: 36,6-36,8C
Pulse: 65-70

I think there already were a few changes due to nutritional changes: better digestion, some improvements in thinking an I can motivate myself better to do things. I was not able to do something every day as going on a walk in the mornings for a long period of time before. I would struggle a lot with creating routines and good sleeping patterns. That improved a lot.

On the other hand - temps, acne, and most of the cognitive problem are still bad, so adding in thyroid and/or protest-E will be the next step if my diet is good enough.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
I think very low PUFA, loading with vitamin E, thiamine, pregnenolone especially would be completely necessary. You can take some niacin and see how badly you turn red. Most patients don't turn red at all. You must reach that point where you always know what is causing your distress. If you have anhedonia I think we can identify some things for that as well.
 
OP
J

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
Interesting Such_Saturation, thanks for your input as well.
What do you consider very low PUFA? Will this number be achievable with 2 eggs and some milk (both not grass fed, milk is 1,5% fat)?

Are there any other sources for vitamin E apart from Progest-E? If not, I will try to find internet shops which sell it and order it, hoping it will make it through customs services.

I have not read a lot about thiamine, I will inform myself about it.

Is there a reason why you're recommending the Niacin and not niacinamid? I have grad that they are both quite similar, only difference is the red face and maybe the price? Or does niacin have some other additional value? I hope I'm not asking stupid questions - I never took any supplements and was scared of possible side effects. But I will gather as much information about them as I can and then try to implement them into my diet if they do not sound too scary for me :D

I will take the pregnenolone when my hair loss has subsided, maybe the correlation was a coincidence. I did not feel any noticeable effects with 50mg daily, so maybe I will try to increase the dose a bit then.

I think my problems worsened during the last year due to the cumulative stress caused by studying medicine. I dread oral exams and we had tons! I could not handle the pressure well and with developing problems with memory and my speaking the pressure got even worse. But to eliminate those stressors I would have to quit studying which is a poor option.
Other than that, I also felt some stress in social situations (well, alcohol helped a lot with that, I was way more talkative and relaxed when drinking some at parties).
I guess I have to bring my body to a point where its not easily stressed out by anything since I can not get rid of those stressors.

I don't have anhedonia when it comes to enjoying things. I have as much fun doing things as I did before I think. My problem is to get the initial motivation to do those things. When somebody asks me whether I want to meet and do something my first thought is to find an excuse and don't do it. I have to force myself a lot, although I really enjoy it if I do it.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
Jupooo said:
Interesting Such_Saturation, thanks for your input as well.
What do you consider very low PUFA? Will this number be achievable with 2 eggs and some milk (both not grass fed, milk is 1,5% fat)?

Are there any other sources for vitamin E apart from Progest-E? If not, I will try to find internet shops which sell it and order it, hoping it will make it through customs services.

I have not read a lot about thiamine, I will inform myself about it.

Is there a reason why you're recommending the Niacin and not niacinamid? I have grad that they are both quite similar, only difference is the red face and maybe the price? Or does niacin have some other additional value? I hope I'm not asking stupid questions - I never took any supplements and was scared of possible side effects. But I will gather as much information about them as I can and then try to implement them into my diet if they do not sound too scary for me :D

I will take the pregnenolone when my hair loss has subsided, maybe the correlation was a coincidence. I did not feel any noticeable effects with 50mg daily, so maybe I will try to increase the dose a bit then.

I think my problems worsened during the last year due to the cumulative stress caused by studying medicine. I dread oral exams and we had tons! I could not handle the pressure well and with developing problems with memory and my speaking the pressure got even worse. But to eliminate those stressors I would have to quit studying which is a poor option.
Other than that, I also felt some stress in social situations (well, alcohol helped a lot with that, I was way more talkative and relaxed when drinking some at parties).
I guess I have to bring my body to a point where its not easily stressed out by anything since I can not get rid of those stressors.

I don't have anhedonia when it comes to enjoying things. I have as much fun doing things as I did before I think. My problem is to get the initial motivation to do those things. When somebody asks me whether I want to meet and do something my first thought is to find an excuse and don't do it. I have to force myself a lot, although I really enjoy it if I do it.

Two eggs would be too much to stay under four grams of PUFA, but if the milk irritates your intestine then eggs are better for now I think. Niacin is different from niacinamide because it makes your face go red, but in many schizophrenics it doesn't so it is an interesting thing. Mostly you need metabolism and temperature to say "yes" to things. Coffee usually makes "no" into a "yes".
 
OP
J

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
I will definately try the Niacin then, this is really interesting.

I drink coffee, but only in the morning since I had problems to go to bed in time before (not because of coffee necessarily though) and developing a good sleeping pattern is quite difficult or me. On the other hand - I mostly have problems with motivation in the evenings so I will try some coffee when this happens!

I really appreciate all your answers. There are many things I will inform myself about more and hopefully will be able to try them.
 

lexis

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
430
Glycine 60g per day is suppose to help schizophrenia.You can do a google search for more info
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
Hi Jupoo,
I think the symptoms you describe are pretty general ymptoms of reduced energy - to me they don't look like they would be very specific to something like 'schizophrenia' (I'm not convinced that this is a helpful name for anything anyway). So general tactics for improving energy seem in order.

I would try increasing calories a little before adding hormones. I cook up a btch of many chicken necks, and then freeeze teh sock in icecubes. Then I heat and drink a little morning and evening. One way to do it is start with one or two cubes, and increase a little after a week etc as you see what effects it has. I think I can tell the difference. If you try to get NDT or synthetic 3 and T4, I gather from reading lots of threads here that it can be quite tricky getting the dose right.

Progest-e comes from the US. I think Peatarian, a previous poster here also from Germany, and she had to find ways around restrictions. You might find her posts interesting.

I'm supplementing niacinamide and thiamine, along with other Bs. Be aware that they can improve sugar burning, and high doses can reduce bloood glucose levels, so it's good to have with sugar and/or have more sugar at hand if you need it.
 
OP
J

Jupooo

Member
Joined
May 30, 2014
Messages
13
lexis said:
Glycine 60g per day is suppose to help schizophrenia.You can do a google search for more info

I researched about it and it, there are quite a few studies that indicate that glycine helps, especially with the negative symptoms. I will try to increase my gelatin intake. Made some oxtail soup and bone broth the last days which were delicious, but i don't think I ate 60g worth of Glycine. I'm only able to add powdered gelatin to my coffee, I don't like this meaty aroma in my juices :D But i'm sure i will find a way. Thank's for this information!

tara said:
Hi Jupoo,
I think the symptoms you describe are pretty general ymptoms of reduced energy - to me they don't look like they would be very specific to something like 'schizophrenia' (I'm not convinced that this is a helpful name for anything anyway). So general tactics for improving energy seem in order.

I'm really glad to read that to be honest! I don't feel mentally ill at all. I'm not paranoid, depressed, anxious and I really like being around other people, even if it can be stressfull sometimes.
Most of the early factors of Schizophrenia seem to be similar to symptoms of any mental disorder and also similar to symptoms caused by a lack of energy (lack of motivation, brain fog, inability to concentrate etc).
I always thought of these illnesses as caused by 'damage in the brain' which is genetically fixed, maybe caused by a lack of certain enzymes and then only triggered by stressors.. But the more i read about it and about Peat's work, the more i think it's the other way round:
Cumulative stress (nutrition, life style, lack of light, lack of CO2) lead to many different damages of the body. Our geneticts may only determine which parts of our body are vulnerable to stress.

Therefore i think increasing my energy by increasing my metabolism should really prevent any further damage to my brain. At least thats what I hope.

tara said:
I would try increasing calories a little before adding hormones. I cook up a btch of many chicken necks, and then freeeze teh sock in icecubes. Then I heat and drink a little morning and evening. One way to do it is start with one or two cubes, and increase a little after a week etc as you see what effects it has. I think I can tell the difference. If you try to get NDT or synthetic 3 and T4, I gather from reading lots of threads here that it can be quite tricky getting the dose right.

The last days, I tried to upp my calorie intake... with immediate effects :eek:
My temps rose (to 36,9C, i never ever saw temps like that on my thermometer without being ill) and my skin looked a lot better. But it's hard tp maintain this, any minor stressors like riding my bike to do some shopping, not eating constantly or being in a slightly colder surrounding results in cold feet and a drop in temperature. My morning temperatures are colder than before (today: 35,9C).

The ice cube idea is brilliant! I was concerned about how i would be able to slowly increase my intake and get replicable results but it sounds easy this way. I will have to order the chicken necks online at a shop for raw meat for pets, there are no other sources available :?


tara said:
Progest-e comes from the US. I think Peatarian, a previous poster here also from Germany, and she had to find ways around restrictions. You might find her posts interesting.

I'm supplementing niacinamide and thiamine, along with other Bs. Be aware that they can improve sugar burning, and high doses can reduce bloood glucose levels, so it's good to have with sugar and/or have more sugar at hand if you need it.

Thanks again for all these information. I think i will try to add things in step by step, otherwise i won't be able to tell what made a difference.
I will continue eating an increased amount of calories, more gelatin and will add the chicken necks. Do you think two weeks will be enough to let my body adjust to the changes and see the effects?
After that i will start adding supplements.
 

Parsifal

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
1,081
Such_Saturation said:
I think very low PUFA, loading with vitamin E, thiamine, pregnenolone especially would be completely necessary. You can take some niacin and see how badly you turn red. Most patients don't turn red at all. You must reach that point where you always know what is causing your distress. If you have anhedonia I think we can identify some things for that as well.
What would do for anhedonia Such?
 

Parsifal

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2015
Messages
1,081
Such_Saturation said:
Two eggs would be too much to stay under four grams of PUFA, but if the milk irritates your intestine then eggs are better for now I think. Niacin is different from niacinamide because it makes your face go red, but in many schizophrenics it doesn't so it is an interesting thing. Mostly you need metabolism and temperature to say "yes" to things. Coffee usually makes "no" into a "yes".
According to cronometer 2 boiled eggs only have 1.2g of PUFAs?
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
Such_Saturation said:
Mostly you need metabolism and temperature to say "yes" to things. Coffee usually makes "no" into a "yes".
LOL! Loved this.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
Parsifal said:
post 109512
According to cronometer 2 boiled eggs only have 1.2g of PUFAs?

Surely it's variable, but for example jumbo eggs have almost a gram each. The point is that the rest of his calories would have to be extraordinary to get to two-three thousand with less than four grams. More extraordinary than dairy fat at least.

Parsifal said:
post 109510
What would do for anhedonia Such?

I can't remember what I was thinking there :lol:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

barefooter

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
218
Jupooo said:
post 59357 I drink coffee, but only in the morning since I had problems to go to bed in time before (not because of coffee necessarily though) and developing a good sleeping pattern is quite difficult or me

How's your sleep quality now? How about your life and psychological stress load? In my experience, these things are hugely important contributors to mental health, along with nutrition, exercise, socialization, etc. It's anecdotal, but several months ago I slipped into a bout of minor psychosis and paranoia, and I was very freaked out that I was going down the path of full blown schizophrenia (family history with mental illness). Only problem was I was exhausted all the time and had zero motivation to help myself.

After continuing this downward spiral for a while, I finally got serious about my sleep and stress. I started going to bed by 10, and getting up at 5 or 6 everyday, and doing more de-stressing activities like listening to music and laying under heat lamps. Within days I was feeling completely different, like I had woken up from a bad dream and was now ready to really live. When I come home from work, often I'm very mentally exhausted, but I lay down on a heating pad with a heat lamp shining on me, put a lavender eye pillow on, and listen to music. It recharges me really fast and I have motivation to actually do stuff in the evening. What I learned was to stop fighting my lack of motivation. If the body says no, then you need to fix underlying issues so it will naturally say yes to movement, socialization, etc. Continuing to force these things when my body didn't want them only made me worse.

Anyway, just my thoughts based on personal experience. I wish you well and hope you get better.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

milk

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
341
It seems that whenever I take cyproheptadine, the following symptoms pretty much vanish:

- anxiety
- autistic social behavior
- paranoid thinking
- OCD compulsions

It's pretty wonderful. I'm not sure I should be taking cypro given some other issues, but it seems to be a pretty ideal med for mental health.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom