Salt, best type to use, acidity

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
Hello, I've been using celtic sea salt and this pink bolivian rock salt mostly (and whatever type of salt that happens to be in prebought foods). Also the mineral spring water
I drink has some sodium in it (10mg per cup). For months now I've been going back and forth with edema in legs/feet and excess coldness...and It's weird because I will crave salt but then it seems to just cause more edema and make me thirsty when I eat it even in really small amounts. I'm underweight and generally colder than desired...pretty much no body fat at all or other water retention (just legs) I almost never sweat, and I have little to no appetite yet feel unsatiated without eating...(like my cells and brain feel like they need energy, but my stomach doesn't feel hungry or 'growl' per so like it may after a good workout. (These are states of being I consider less than ideal) I'm wondering if maybe this has anything to do with...

- Type of salt being used (I've read refined salt is less hyrgoscopic because it doesn't contain any mag/calc/other salts which hold more water than just pure sodium chloride)
- Possible iodine deficiency (no eggs, dairy, or seafood in a while and not supplementing iodine. I'm assuiming I've been getting enough
from vegetable broth / seaweed)
- Excess fruit juice, maybe causing the salt water to be held in suspension to dilute acids (maybe too low total water / acid ratio?)
- Excess iron, calcium, or beta carotene having to do anything with it (I get more iron and beta than most Peat followers, though with much coffee and chocolate as well)
- B12 and/or hemoglobin issues
- Dehydration
- Too little sodium / chloride (seems counter intuitive but might make sense in a way)
- Too low protein / dopamine (edema seems to reduce in rare situation where I am motivated and feeling good)

Any advice is well appreciated...thanks
 

pboy

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
its kind of weird and I don't know how I got into this situation, but it seems im in acidosis yet have too much salt and calcium (what youre saying matches what
would make sense to how I feel / what I eat). I crave dark chocolate and other nuts like cashews and I literally ate like 5 ounces of dark choco yesterday and had no side effects...but when I drank OJ laterin the day it threw everything off and I had bouts of gas / bloating / irritation the rest of the day. In fact, whenever I drink anything other than pure water (even coffee, or any fruit juice) it seems to wreak havoc on me for the entire rest of the day or most of it, and I tend to want to eat a ton of dark choco (not that most people don't always want to anyways).

So jenn...would it be wise of me to just drink mostly plain water for a while and rely on sweetened dark choco (mainly) as a way to move towards balance? This seems to make sense. Also...should I forgo salt, limit it, or increase intake? Right now I just take pinches at most throughout the day (with water mostly).
Water intake as thirst dictates, or maybe a little more to try to pump the excess salt/calcium? (though edema would seem to hint I'm holding excess water...it just needs to be liberated per se)
 

Jenn

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
Lack of protein is an issue in edema too.
It is possible for plain water to NOT be hydrating. The act of digestion is supposed to provide most of your water needs, aside from sweating. Try to get your water from fruit and OJ, not from concentrate. Coconut water is excellent for hydration, but its pricey. Look into carbonated water if you can't handle the OJ right now....or mix seltzer water or club soda with the OJ.
 

pboy

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
Today, trying to avoid excess acidity (therefore OJ and fruits, and coffee temporarily) but still wanting to get potassium, calcium, magnesium...I thought "hey, blackstrap molasses...good source of those 3 minerals, plus copper, selenium, no PUFA...seems like a good choice". Well...the swelling in my feet and lower legs (which I've noticed recently has gotten bad enough to actually cause thinning hair, though the hair on my head seems to grow rapidly with a good dark color). Within seconds of drinking the molasses water, I immediately noticed the feeling...like when I'd drink OJ or fruit sometimes and/or certain other things, heaviness...draining, swelling. Basically this spawned a reaction of me researching and connecting dots from the past of when I'd get ankle/feet/gut edema, and possibly why I've been having it lately and it getting worse. Iron. It has to be, and it makes complete sense. Ive been eating a lot of spirulina lately (very high iron, like 30% a tsp...ive been consuming about 200-400% iron a day usually with some vit C near it) and molasses (very high iron) and these 2 particularly have nothing in them to prevent iron absorption...and on top of that the OJ and fruit I was drinking, as well as wheatgrass juice (for vit c, most minerals, choline) would cause the gas/irritation/bloating probably because the vitamin C was oxidizing or causing iron to be absorbed even more rapidly in my gut. This makes sense as to why I'd crave so much cacao also...the polyphenols in it rival or surpass even coffee and green tea for preventing iron absorption. Im thinking coffee probably would help too as well as more green tea and other herbs that prevent iron absorption (nettle seems like it would be good too? high choline, b vitamin, calcium, silica, antioxidants, protein, polyphenols, copper, zinc, and even an acetylcholine enhancing enzyme). Excess iron in the body from what I can tell also leads to a chronic state of stress also because you cant rid yourself of it as a man very easy or at all and basically since Ive been putting more in every day Ive been, despite everything else, staying in a state of stress. I think the edema in my ankles and gut are where my body is storing the excess oxidized iron/polyfat compounds, since my liver is probably already fully saturated with toxic fats...unfortunately. This state also leads to diabetes type symptoms or basically diabetes exactly, because your body doesn't want to oxidize more than it has to because of an already excess iron and probably too much % PUFA's in the body...so you stay low thyroid, low insulin, low appetite...its terrible, cold feelings all the time, hungry kind of but not able to process food ...so when I do eat I basically ***t it out within that day and its usually loose.

Does this all make sense to anyone? Today as soon as I ate a few spoons of high oleic sunflower oil (its almost all mono fats, no PUFA and extremely high vitamin E) I felt immediately a shifting in my body and release of tension...probably because of the vit E's protective effect against the iron in my body. If this seems wrong, or anyone has any advice, or experience, please share it...anything would help.
 

pboy

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
So...edema almost completely gone in 1 day...the solution...salt and water surprisingly (vitamin b12, vitamin e, and attention to low iron all helped too I think), I added salt to the juice I drank and it make all the difference, then made sure to drink a full cup of plain or lightly salted water between juice / chocolate. This irritates me, because you would think salt and water would be the exact opposite of what would help edema based on mainstream and medical advice, but its actually the solution. Basically not enough salt and water especially in the prescience of sugar and potassium means you cant utilize the sugar at all, so you end up breaking up body tissue and being in a cortisol response to get energy (though probably thinking its the juice/sugar that's giving you the energy...really you just initated a stress response to the sugar dehydrating, potassium pulling juice), then you pee out the sugar cause you get too much in the blood stream and the cells cant use it (because of lack of water and sodium) so you end up wasting it and it carries water out with it leading to more dehydration. The fact that you're breaking down tissue to supply energy leads to uric acid, but since youre dehydrated it accumulates hence gout (edema). Its really an acid overload + dehydration, not sodium and water retention. So basically always be hydrated, and always match potassium with an appropriate amount of sodium or the sugar cant be used by the cells. I would be willing to bet millions of americans would benefit from this basic advice, especially diabetics (they just tell them to restrict sugar and potassium intake and mess with insulin instead or recommending more water and sodium...in fact, they discourage water and sodium...and of course you need sugar, metabolizable sugar, or you'll always be catabolic)

added: I used a sodium : potassium ratio of 1 : 3.5 because that's the ratio natural in mothers breasmilk...so I figured that would be a good guide
So 1 cup (8oz) of OJ, having 450mg of potassium, would be appropriately balanced by 150mg of sodium, about 1/8tsp...which seems like a good intuitive amount
to me that ratio tasted delicious. I added it to pineapple juice, and carrot and it seemed perfectly sweet/savory. Ray Peat and all of you who talk about salting OJ, thank you,
you're the man, you helped steer me in a direction where my health and energy levels have improved
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,678
Location
USA
pboy, this is absolutely incredible. Thank you so much for posting. As I was reading the first couple of sentences, in my head I was like "OMG this is totally against what they tell you to do!"

The world is upside down. I feel honored and humbled to be able to share in truth with everyone here. Thank you.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,678
Location
USA
Sorry if that last sentence sounded a little too mushy. :lol: But it's truly how I feel.
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
59
Charlie said:
Sorry if that last sentence sounded a little too mushy. :lol: But it's truly how I feel.


I'll take mushy over bitchy any day! :mrgreen:
 

chris

Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
437
Age
28
Location
UK
pboy - Is water necessary, even when drinking 3L+ of water and oj a day?
 

Beebop

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
289
pboy, why have you been taking Spirulina? Some blue green algaes are toxic to the liver. Maybe check it out.
 

pboy

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
yea....I stopped eating it, I figured it was good for protein, vit a, copper, iodine and other trace sea minerals ( I was eating a sea water grown one), and chromium

I think water is more necessary and should mostly only be considered for carbohydrates moreso than for fat or protein as they don't change the osmostic pressure of water in the body very much if at all. Id say yes, still drink some pure water.
Once again I'll compare using mothers milk ratio...about 16.6g (66.4calories) from carbohydrate per 8oz water. OJ has about (92calories) per 8 oz water from carbohydrates. So technically and of course hypothetically, to fully utilize OJ an addition of the equivalent water to match (92 - 66.4 cal = 25.6) , (25.6 / 66.4) cal = about .386% of 8oz extra water needed to match the osmotic pressure of the carbohydrate - water ratio in mothers milk...so about 3.1 extra ounces. So 8oz OJ diluted to 11.1oz total water, with about 1/8tsp salt, would match the osmotic pressure and sodium : potassium ratio of mothers milk. Of course, this would probably just provide the best mouthfeel and enjoyability I assume, but I'm sure as long as you relatively matched the ratios throughout the course of the day as opposed to perfectly all at once, your body would manage stores and adjust what it releases / holds to compensate with at least a decent amount of gray area

Also theres probably more of a gray area because some people might be sweating more which would seem to mean they'd require more sodium, potassium and water replenishment...and not all mothers milks are exactly that ratio, though very close to it if healthy. Also salts are slightly different in sodium ratio depending on where they came from and if refined or not...but all very close to the same

This will be very interesting for me to experiment with in the coming days
 

HDD

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,028
Ray Peat said:
Increasing the concentration of sodium increases the energy consumption and carbon dioxide production of the cell. The sodium, by increasing carbon dioxide production, protects against the excitatory, toxic effects of the intracellular calcium.

I am trying to see if my understanding of this quote and others is correct. My MS symptoms, I believe are actually edema. It becomes more extreme (noticeable to me only) if I am getting anxious about something. This would be an excitatory, inflammatory response to stress. Correct? So if I increase sodium, this should be protection from stress.
 

HDD

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
2,028
:oops: Lol obviously I did something wrong!
 

kmguam

New Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
2
Pboy, thank you for tracking your progress here! Your struggles and solutions really helped me understand what is going on with my body and how to fix it. I am hypothyroid and have edema problems, mainly under my eyes and lower legs. I live on a tropical island and sweat all the time. I was craving dark chocolate/cashews and salt, and I thought staying away from the salt was the answer. My legs and eyes kept getting more and more swollen. I have been drinking OJ with baking soda for 2 days and haven't seen the swelling go down yet. I am going to try your pineapple juice with salt and carrot juice and am going to try the epsom salt/baking soda baths. (Maybe soaking in the ocean will help too??) For the past 3 years I have been breaking out in a red rash/welts within 5 minutes of working out. (My doc said autoimmune rashes go hand in hand with hypothyroidism, but they can't cure them) The red bumps will last an hour and itch like crazy. My Dr. told me to take 6000mg of Vit C, which I was and I think that was giving me too much iron absorption. But the Vit C seemed to help keep the rash away. Anyway, thanks for helping me!

pboy said:
So...edema almost completely gone in 1 day...the solution...salt and water surprisingly (vitamin b12, vitamin e, and attention to low iron all helped too I think), I added salt to the juice I drank and it make all the difference, then made sure to drink a full cup of plain or lightly salted water between juice / chocolate. This irritates me, because you would think salt and water would be the exact opposite of what would help edema based on mainstream and medical advice, but its actually the solution.
 

pboy

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
One thing I've noticed is that the salt is necessary to help me digest juices especially, and that it keeps me mentally calmer. I'm not sure if its the salt itself or the benefits it gives as a side effect of the better digestion / lower stress, that have helped me with the edema. When I am under stress or in a rushed mindset, especially coupled with caffeine and lots of fluid, I seem to get edema really quickly in my lower legs and feet (even having some hair loss in the area now), but the first day I get to rest, relax, digest good...the edema will drain usually by the end of the day. So I'm thinking a regular blood sugar, good digestion, and a calm mindset are ultimately what have helped me...but I still am trying to figure this out as the edema comes back time to time. A little extra water but always with some salt, and adding salt to juices were the main things I've adjusted in my eating that have helped to reduce the edema. Adequate protein and vitamin e were also things I adjusted that may have helped me (I consume way less protein than Peat recommeneds). It seems we're in the same boat, wishing you the best and if I better hone whats going on with my own body I'll be sure to post
 

asajulian

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Messages
50
Endotoxin will cause hyponatremia (low salt levels), so that is something to be mindful of as well. Ray Peat mentions this in his CO2 vs lactate article. There are many studies on pubmed for the relation between endotoxin and sodium as well. I've had edema go down by taking penicillin and maintaining gut health as well as getting enough salt.
 

Dutchie

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
758
You talk about using salt/sodium but which salt do you use? Ive always used heaps of himalayan salt and sometimes seasalt but im %uessing thats a factor in my current fluid retention shitshow nc ive been used to using it so long after mainly living on raw leafy greens&proteine amd drinking loters of detoxtra daily only that i totally have to accustom mentally again also towards the fact that lots of food alteady contain fluids.

i know billy recommends morton pickling salt,as it contains no other minerals,additives etc. but. pure sodium. they dont have that over here and ive got no creditcards so does someone know an alternative version of the salt,preferrably to be. gotten in netherlands? unless someone has a bucketload at home and feels in a generous mood:p
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
59
Dutchie said:
You talk about using salt/sodium but which salt do you use? Ive always used heaps of himalayan salt and sometimes seasalt but im %uessing thats a factor in my current fluid retention shitshow nc ive been used to using it so long after mainly living on raw leafy greens&proteine amd drinking loters of detoxtra daily only that i totally have to accustom mentally again also towards the fact that lots of food alteady contain fluids.

i know billy recommends morton pickling salt,as it contains no other minerals,additives etc. but. pure sodium. they dont have that over here and ive got no creditcards so does someone know an alternative version of the salt,preferrably to be. gotten in netherlands? unless someone has a bucketload at home and feels in a generous mood:p

Kosher salt also has no additives. That's the key, just pure salt, no iodine or caking agents.

I'm thinking there must be people in The Netherlands who do food canning. Find them and you should find the salt. Canning or pickling salt without additives is used to keep the food being canned from turning color which it will do if you use salt with additives.

Hope that helps!
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
Y Is Salt The Best Way To Immediately Increase Body Temp? Health 2
A The safety of high salt diet? Ask For Help or Advice 10
D High salt intake caused metabolic acidosis Metabolism 44
GorillaHead The elusive effects of salt on androgenic alopecia? Hair & Nails 3
S Salt and lowering adrenaline. Ask For Help or Advice 6
GorillaHead Increased salt intake leads to endothelial dysfunction? Diet 3
J Salt Ask For Help or Advice 0
Hgreen56 Salt, Sugar, And Dietary Fat Trigger Opioids In The Brain Which Can Contribute To Overeating Diet 4
BigYellowLemon Salt Enhances/potentiates GABA Scientific Studies 5
Hgreen56 How Much Salt Do You Take? Diet 1
GorillaHead Salt Loading Induced Acute Hyperhidrosis And Cold Hands Why! Ask For Help or Advice 27
Mr. God of Cars Salt / Sodium And Hypertension Health 0
C Sodium 50% Reduced Salt Beverages, Fruits, Sugars 0
J Hydration = Salt & Sugar Beverages, Fruits, Sugars 10
I Salt, Libido, CFS Metabolism 4
Hgreen56 Anti-Peat Sugar And Salt Cause Dehydration Debate - Anti-Peat 27
Digital Samurai Sweaty Palms Ever Since Starting NDT (salt, Preg Not Helping) Natural Dessicated Thyroid 9
zarrin77 Mega Salt Diet Improves Type 1 Diabetes In Children And Increases Glucose Oxidation Scientific Studies 28
Evgenij Salt Applications Acidity vs. Alkalinity 1
JanP Transdermal / Sublingual Absorbtion Of Salt? Absorbing Salt Without Ingesting It Ask For Help or Advice 8
haidut High-salt Diet Strongly Inhibits Cancer Growth Scientific Studies 9
D Making Your Own Transdermal Epsom Salt Does It Absorb Throug The Skin? Magnesium 0
zarrin77 Very High Salt Intake (50g A Day) Increases Metabolism, Makes People Energetic And Happy Scientific Studies 146
zarrin77 High Salt Diet In Rats Almost Doubles Testosterone Levels, But Scientific Studies 29
A Panic Rush After Eating Bananas/taking Potassium Salt Ask For Help or Advice 38
C Salt Or Baking Soda? Ask For Help or Advice 7
M Eggs, Ghee, Salt, & Temps Diet 11
haidut Aspirin/salt For Treating A Broken Heart, And What REALLY Causes Afib Scientific Studies 0
C Why Is Salt Reducing My Water Retention And Frequent Urination? Ask For Help or Advice 2
Soren Diet Experiment: Protein Shakes, Sugar And Salt Only Experiments 11
C Lemons Satisfied Cravings For Salt Health 0
C Crazy Reaction To Hot Milk With Honey And Salt Milk 24
L How To Develop Mental Maturity (and Increase Salt Retention)? Mental Issues 1
Mito Effect Of Salt Substitution On Community-wide Blood Pressure Articles & Scientific Studies 4
L How Do You Get Enough Salt If You Don't Like Cheese? Diet 12
Velve921 Epsom Salt/Aspirin/B3/Baking Soda Baths Ask For Help or Advice 14
JanP Intense Nausea After Small Amount Of Salt (sodium) Ask For Help or Advice 8
B Nothing But 1% Milk, Juices, Salt, And Gelatin? Ask For Help or Advice 32
N Salt For Mold Toxicity Theory Miscellaneous Health Discussions 4
ecstatichamster Salt Increases Thermogenesis Scientific Studies 8
ecstatichamster Salt Restriction Lowers Metabolic Rate And Increases Fat Articles & Scientific Studies 2
Mito Dietary Salt Promotes Cognitive Impairment Through Tau Phosphorylation Articles & Scientific Studies 46
JCastro Dangers Of Iodized Salt; Normal Use Rapidly Induces Iodine Toxicity Scientific Studies 55
Tristan Loscha Anti-Peat High-Salt Augments Aldosterone Toxicity Despite Lowered Plasma-Readings Debate - Anti-Peat 50
D Bronchitis Treated With Himalayan Pink Salt Inhaler. Eyes, Ears, Nose and Headaches/Migraines 0
M Food Without Enough Salt: Complete Depression, With Salt: Feels Great Diet 16
P Ibex Climbs For Salt Miscellaneous Health Discussions 5
O High Salt Intake; Blood Pressure; Acidosis; Bone Health: Hypercortisolism Acidity vs. Alkalinity 1
J Salt, Dairy,sugar Blood Flow Health 9
Dino D Tinnitus / Iron, Coffee, Salt Eyes, Ears, Nose and Headaches/Migraines 13

Similar threads

Top