Safety Of Long-term Use Of DMSO As A Solvent

[Wagner83]

The exact opposite is reported in the study I linked to Safety Of Long-term Use Of DMSO As A Solvent , not based on "unpublished personal observation", it has been linked to damage to the eye , as well as neuronal deaths in the brain (was it young mice?).

 

[haidut]

From A Biophysical Approach to Altered Consciousness

Yep, thanks for that. Its structure is very similar to urea and it overlaps with urea in many of its therapeutic effects. Btw, urea protects DMSO from degrading into MSM and it is the MSM degradation that gives rise to most of the reported side effects. Niacinamide may do the same - i.e. protect DMSO from degradation and thus reduce risk of side effects.

 

[Wagner83]

Yep, thanks for that. Its structure is very similar to urea and it overlaps with urea in many of its therapeutic effects. Btw, urea protects DMSO from degrading into MSM and it is the MSM degradation that gives rise to most of the reported side effects. Niacinamide may do the same - i.e. protect DMSO from degradation and thus reduce risk of side effects.

How do you know the msm is responsible for the issues ? (since the studies I, farmerMark and Ray posted were on dmso itself) Also is there a reason for you to drop dmso altogether rather than add a dmso-free option to choose from , as you did with the tocopherols version of pansterone ? Some people seem happy with it, there was also the possibility that 5% dmso works fine.

From A Biophysical Approach to Altered Consciousness

Btw given what he has said in the last few years about dmso it's pretty obvious he changed his mind over time.

 

[haidut]

How do you know the msm is responsible for the issues ? (since the studies I, farmerMark and Ray posted were on dmso itself) Also is there a reason for you to drop dmso altogether rather than add a dmso-free option to choose from , as you did with the tocopherols version of pansterone ? Some people seem happy with it, there was also the possibility that 5% dmso works fine.

Btw given what he has said in the last few years about dmso it's pretty obvious he changed his mind over time.

I posted a link to Google Patents somewhere in one of these threads about DMSO and its toxicity that said most of the issues seen with DMSO are from its metabolism into MSM and urea blocks that breakdown. As far as the options - I can't keep 3-4 options of solvents to choose from. It makes the logistics for bottling and storage very difficult. If the new solvent provides the same absorption as DMSO and is virtually non-toxic then it should be the default non-tocopherol choice, unless we get a ton of reports from people saying they do not like it for some reason. I doubt they won't like it as the tests so far are overwhelmingly positive. I think 2 options for solvents is fine - one is oily (the tocopherol) and one is clear and evaporates pretty quickly, just like the DMSO. I may add the option to make a custom version with DMSO with a markup of some sort over the base price, just in case there are some die-hard DMSO fans (I am one of them) that do not want to change habits.

 

[Braveheart]

I posted a link to Google Patents somewhere in one of these threads about DMSO and its toxicity that said most of the issues seen with DMSO are from its metabolism into MSM and urea blocks that breakdown. As far as the options - I can't keep 3-4 options of solvents to choose from. It makes the logistics for bottling and storage very difficult. If the new solvent provides the same absorption as DMSO and is virtually non-toxic then it should be the default non-tocopherol choice, unless we get a ton of reports from people saying they do not like it for some reason. I doubt they won't like it as the tests so far are overwhelmingly positive. I think 2 options for solvents is fine - one is oily (the tocopherol) and one is clear and evaporates pretty quickly, just like the DMSO. I may add the option to make a custom version with DMSO with a markup of some sort over the base price, just in case there are some die-hard DMSO fans (I am one of them) that do not want to change habits.

here is another die-hard DMSO fan, as I'm sure there are others....

 

[Ideonaut]

Yes, definitely be cautious if you use DMSO. It may have some good effects but that doesn't mean they're all good. I think @haidut is doing a good job with warning people to be cautious in general. best way to go.

I have a friend who has begun taking DMSO orally and reports positive effects on overall health. She's only taking a few drops, otherwise following this https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-take-dmso-orally-dimethyl-sulfoxide and this How to Take DMSO Orally for Arthritis advice, while using this Amazon.com: DMSO - Dimethyl sulfoxide liquid (3.4 Oz - 100ml), Pharmaceutical grade, High purity.: Health & Personal Care
Any comments? I'd want to look very carefully at safety before trying it myself. It's certainly not natural.

 

[sladerunner69]

Specifically for me, dizziness and shortness of breath, along with the rashes.

That sounds exactly like an allergic reaction

 

[Wagner83]

I have a friend who has begun taking DMSO orally and reports positive effects on overall health. She's only taking a few drops, otherwise following this https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-take-dmso-orally-dimethyl-sulfoxide and this How to Take DMSO Orally for Arthritis advice, while using this Amazon.com: DMSO - Dimethyl sulfoxide liquid (3.4 Oz - 100ml), Pharmaceutical grade, High purity.: Health & Personal Care
Any comments? I'd want to look very carefully at safety before trying it myself. It's certainly not natural.

I doubt you'll find much more information than the sources referenced in this thread and the studies discussed.

 

[Ideonaut]

I doubt you'll find much more information than the sources referenced in this thread and the studies discussed.

I'm leary of it because of what Nathan Hatch says about it in his article on supplements at fuckportioncontrol.com:
DMSO, like many artificial compounds, is outright toxic for the human body. I personally tried some products with DMSO and each time my body temperature dropped and my physical wellbeing altered for the negative (aches/pain/etc.). It turns out that DMSO is not harmless, as some manufacturers have led us to believe and even cherry-pick studies to support its use. DMSO has many negative side effects, and worst of all has a very long half-life, so it accumulates faster than the other parts of a product and takes a long time to clear out of the body. Even Ray Peat warns against using it. For me, this one is a strong NO. It would be nice if he supplied some references.

 

[haidut]

I'm leary of it because of what Nathan Hatch says about it in his article on supplements at fuckportioncontrol.com:
DMSO, like many artificial compounds, is outright toxic for the human body. I personally tried some products with DMSO and each time my body temperature dropped and my physical wellbeing altered for the negative (aches/pain/etc.). It turns out that DMSO is not harmless, as some manufacturers have led us to believe and even cherry-pick studies to support its use. DMSO has many negative side effects, and worst of all has a very long half-life, so it accumulates faster than the other parts of a product and takes a long time to clear out of the body. Even Ray Peat warns against using it. For me, this one is a strong NO. It would be nice if he supplied some references.

That is just as biased as saying DMSO has no side effects at all. I am assuming he is referring to me when he talks about manufacturers cherry picking studies to support its use. For the one thousandth time - DMSO is the standard solvent for steroids used in clinical research, and has been used for over 50 years in human studies, with no notable side effects except skin irritation.
Its side effects profile is fairly well known but new information comes out every day and we should be taking new information into account. When asked about it, Ray said it should not be used for prolonged periods of time and in the same quote also said that small amounts are probably safe. When somebody asked him about specific doses he said that 100mg - 200mg are probably safe even for very sensitive people. Those quotes are notably missing from the musings of all these DMSO opponents.
The only way to find out is to try yourself. A small dose is not going to ruin your health and will show you if it is something you can use on a regular basis or not.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm leary of it because of what Nathan Hatch says about it in his article on supplements at fuckportioncontrol.com:
DMSO, like many artificial compounds, is outright toxic for the human body. I personally tried some products with DMSO and each time my body temperature dropped and my physical wellbeing altered for the negative (aches/pain/etc.). It turns out that DMSO is not harmless, as some manufacturers have led us to believe and even cherry-pick studies to support its use. DMSO has many negative side effects, and worst of all has a very long half-life, so it accumulates faster than the other parts of a product and takes a long time to clear out of the body. Even Ray Peat warns against using it. For me, this one is a strong NO. It would be nice if he supplied some references.

In this thread there are negative studies which are also discussed, just read the thread, a few detailed and useful links are given too.

 

[Ideonaut]

That is just as biased as saying DMSO has no side effects at all. I am assuming he is referring to me when he talks about manufacturers cherry picking studies to support its use. For the one thousandth time - DMSO is the standard solvent for steroids used in clinical research, and has been used for over 50 years in human studies, with no notable side effects except skin irritation.
Its side effects profile is fairly well known but new information comes out every day and we should be taking new information into account. When asked about it, Ray said it should not be used for prolonged periods of time and in the same quote also said that small amounts are probably safe. When somebody asked him about specific doses he said that 100mg - 200mg are probably safe even for very sensitive people. Those quotes are notably missing from the musings of all these DMSO opponents.
The only way to find out is to try yourself. A small dose is not going to ruin your health and will show you if it is something you can use on a regular basis or not.

thanks for the clarification, Haidut

 

[Wagner83]

This is an interesting link on dmso and effects of storage at room temperature: SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

 

[haidut]

Another interesting report on DMOS, its properties and toxicological profile.
http://pedagogie.ac-limoges.fr/physique-chimie/IMG/pdf/vignes-acs.pdf

@Wagner83

 

[Wagner83]

Another interesting report on DMOS, its properties and toxicological profile.
http://pedagogie.ac-limoges.fr/physique-chimie/IMG/pdf/vignes-acs.pdf

@Wagner83

Thanks.
Like I often said, I personnally think potential toxicity and number of side effects prevail over other information, particularly (biased) information that would brush them off. There is enough reports and information to be at least concerned about it, but that's just my opinion. This being, said, after checking the first pages and reading about how the dmso market could grow a lot more in the pharmaceutical and semiconductor industries, I see:

These myths [about toxicity] have been debunked in two publications:
1.
Paper: Dimethyl Sulfoxide (DMSO: A Superior Solvent Underutilized Because of a Safety Myth, by Robert P. Vignes, Ph.D. of Vignes EHS Consulting; presented at the Semiconductor Safety Association Annual Meeting, April 25 - 28, 2000, Arlington, VA. Contains 65 References

2.
CD Video: DMSO Myth Buster.- 15 Minutes of Facts About DMSO

Both of the above are available from Gaylord Chemical Corporation, 106 Galeria
Blvd., Slidell, LA 70458; phone (800) 426-6620 or (504) 649-5464.

So, ignoring how unscientific a "debunking" of toxicity in a video entitled "DMSO Myth Buster.- 15 Minutes of Facts About DMSO" and a presentation at a meeting of potential clients sound like, I check on wikipedia and read:

The company headquarters of Gaylord Chemical Company LLC are located in the New Orleans suburb of Slidell, Louisiana, USA. Gaylord's original manufacturing facility located in Bogalusa, Louisiana was shut down and demolished in 2010, when the company relocated its operations to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, USA.[1] The company has manufactured dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) and dimethyl sulfide (DMS) continuously since the early 1960s.

That's already too much, even more so after his introduction:

Robert Paul Vignes, Ph.D., [...]Representing Gaylord Chemical Corporation, 106 Galeria Boulevard, Slidell, La. 70458.

But I'll try to look at the rest.

 

[haidut]

Thanks.
Like I often said, I personnally think potential toxicity and number of side effects prevail over other information, particularly (biased) information that would brush them off. There is enough reports and information to be at least concerned about it, but that's just my opinion. This being, said, after checking the first pages and reading about how the dmso market could grow a lot more in the pharmaceutical and semiconductor industries, I see:


So, ignoring how unscientific a "debunking" of toxicity in a video entitled "DMSO Myth Buster.- 15 Minutes of Facts About DMSO" and a presentation at a meeting of potential clients sound like, I check on wikipedia and read:


That's already too much, even more so after his introduction:

But I'll try to look at the rest.

The report is not entirely pro-DMSO. There is a good discussion on its toxicity too.

 

[Wagner83]

The report is not entirely pro-DMSO. There is a good discussion on its toxicity too.

I must have missed it but I barely saw anything against DMSO, quite the opposite. He also states that the dmso is excreted within 24 hours but as we discussed before I don't think this is true as a paper I posted showed it has a very long half-life. Feel free to point the negative bits, otherwise I'll read it again later or tomorrow. What happened to the figures anyway?
Given the talk about big pharma, mixing business and science, I find it very difficult to get over his subjectivity.

PS: An other thing I don't like about dmso is that the side-effects may appear after using it for some time, so it can be hard to pinpoint what the culprit is.

 

[Wagner83]

He mentions this paper in the references https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf00107a049 . The levels of dmso in various foods are shown in a table on the second page (sci-hub), they are very low or non-existent in most, but tomato paste is pretty high, which is interesting as I reported it and organic ketchup have given breathing / coughing issues in the past; but that may not be related. The amount appear higher in tea and coffee but maybe @haidut can help, I don't know how to translate ppm to volume/mass of food/drink. It could be an other compound to consider when people react badly to tomato paste, tea etc..
The author of the previously mentioned paper on dmso claims that we ingest 21mg of dmso per day from food, it'd be interesting to know if that makes any sense given the contents found in food.

 

[Wagner83]

I just thought about this, if tomato paste/ketchup is high in dmso then it could be awful to use it in various pans, and combininh it with certain foods may not be optimal either(?).

 

[Wagner83]

Molybdenum, Hard To Pronounce, Harder Still To Obtain