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Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement

Discussion in 'Minerals' started by KalosKaiAgathos, Jun 9, 2018.

  1. Frankdee20

    Frankdee20 Member

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    Magnesium is wonderful and I do believe many people (based on their typical diets) are deficient. If anything, most consume more Calcium than Magnesium. 400 mg a day is the RDA for adult males. That’s tough to obtain, unless you eat : buckwheat, spinach, halibut, mackerel, molasses, black beans, unprocessed chocolate, almonds, and pumpkin seeds. There’s actually a mineral water - Mivela, green bottle, 343 mg per liter.
     
  2. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    I take my blood pressure regularly with an Omron that detects irregular heartbeat.

    When I just started taking magnesium in therapeutic quantities (4800 MgCl2/day), I quickly noticed irregular heart beat. I found out that taking a banana with it for potassium resolved it. I continued on this protocol for 5 months. Because of this, I don't think the irregular heartbeat was due to magnesium sufficiency but more so out of my belief (from reading Weber of Potassium Nutrition) that from a magnesium deficient condition, supplementing magnesium without potassium intake to accompany it would lead to a magnesium to potassium imbalance, as a magnesium deficiency would cause potassium deficiency, as potassium intakes would simply be excreted through urine.

    Also, I noted that 2 months after I began magnesium chloride supp, I no longer have trigger finger and was no longer experiencing cramps during sleep. This made me think that the magnesium supplementation was bringing me out of a magnesium deficiency, and the potassium intake was no longer being excreted. I remember giving up on potassium intake before because it wasn't resolving my cramps, and now I know why it didn't work then - insufficient magnesium body stores.

    By the way, while I did benefit from using magnesium chloride, as I mentioned above, I realized the benefit was from the magnesium, but the acid load from the unequal absorption of magnesium and chloride eventually lead to a cumulative acid load on my body.

    With regard to my previous comment on proposing the use of haidut's Magnoil instead IV infusion of magnesium to test magnesium deficiency using 24 hour urine magnesium test, I should mention that I haven't tested Magnoil for that purpose. I would need to test on myself to see if it would be harmful, since I would be applying plenty of DMSO on my skin, and at that quantity, unfavorable reaction may be possible.
     
  3. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    Thank you for your consideration.

    There is one thing I wonder about with regard to Carolyn Dean's magnesium chloride. Since Carolyn Dean's ReMag product is a pico-ionic liquid magnesium made from magnesium chloride, I have been wondering if the pico-ionic nature of the product makes ReMag not only more absorbable (as it has been claimed), but also improves the relative absorbability of magnesium vis-a-vis chloride such that the acid load is also reduced.

    If the answer is a negative, it makes me question the therapeutic usage of ReMag. I wonder if Carolyn Dean has taken into account the possible high acidic load of ReMag, which would lead to metabolic acidosis in the course of using ReMag for therapeutic purposes. That would be a side-effect that has to be considered.
     
  4. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Even though magnesium in itself is harmless and it's easy to excrete the excess, not having a notion for needs leads to owasupplementation and likely bumping into the negatives of the complexed onion of choice. Not only that, but also the unnecessary extra means more impurities for the body to handle, especially the forms taken on empty of the stomachs. Foods impair its absorption to a certain degree but probably less so than its impurities, which can be a good thing.

    A magnesium supplements having no excipients or additives isn't a differential, it's an obligation. Being as pure as Jennifer's will is.

    The halogen group of elements, which include pboyodine, chlorine, fluorine and so on, are very reactive. I remember reading from Koch something about this; iodine being useful for oxidation due to its reactivity, therefore being part of thyroid hormones that control metabolism. Lugol's solution might be a bit dangerous for having plain iodine, not the more stable iodid.

    Halogen - Wikipedia

    This must be why they are good as disinfectants. Some people take HCl for infections, burtlan often writes about the virtues of magnesium chlorid in this regard, but this effect comes mainly through its chlorid onion. I'm Janelle sure about this. Due to the context, her name here needs to be read as 'Janel', with a french accent.

    Chlorine compounds inhaled from shower vapors are toxic, I believe they react with iron once in the body for example. Maybe extra vit C is needed in this story to minimize the damage by iron and turn chlorine into something useful, such as HCl.

    Sodium bicarbonate with some drops of potassium iodide might be an useful mouthwash after acidic meals, but I have to read if it's indeed safe to rinse with it often. Part of fluoride protection to the teeth might be due to the antimicrobial action.

    I'm mentioning all this because magnesium chloride has been suggested in various places as one of the best forms of magnesium, yet it can be detrimental if the person is depleted in glycine and taurine. Or if the bicarbonate production is impaired. Or perhaps if there's a vit C deficiency.

    It tastes nasty and taste should be used to limit the dose at a time. When you supplement through the skin, you're skipping this control and very likely deliver more than ideal.

    If you do the calculatings for the proportions in magnesium chlorid, you'll realize that there's way more chlorid than magnesium, and this unusual amount being forced into the body daily can create imbalances and tax the body over time.

    Sodium bicarbonate and vit C often become appealing to those that use magnesium chlorid on a daily basis, this can't be a coincidence.

    And it's official: I'm now one of those alkalizing charlatans. I'm going to start selling spray bottles of Eau Thermale very soon.
     
  5. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    There's no evidence that ReMag is better. It's a proprietary blend, which makes me more skeptical Seeing that studies and 1000s of customers' reviews are positive about magnesium chloride or glycinate, I cannot recommend a product that's 4-5 times as expensive.

    Morley Robbins, another magnesium expert, does not consider Re-Mag anything special either, and does not include that product into his recommended list.

    Moreover, there are a lot of issues where I think Carolyn Dean is wrong, such as recommending seeds, nuts, and grains for increasing magnesium in the diet. She also propogates the idea that you need many more magnesium units to absorb one unit of sugar.
     
  6. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    Thanks for this reply. As I'm aware, you only absorb as much magnesium chloride as you can absorb through the skin. My understanding was also that taking this magnesium form through the skin would limit the disproportional absorption of magnesium and chloride that happens in the gut.

    Btw, are you not confusing chloride and chlorine? These are different things. Chlorine is toxic, yes, and people are commonly exposed to this gas though showering with tap water.

    On the taste of magnesium chloride: yes, it's nasty, and I've already decided to include an explicit disclaimer in my blog post that it should be used transdermally.

    On sodium bicarbonate and vit C becoming appealing, do you have a link to that claim? Interesting...
     
  7. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    And yes, I'm very supportive of Haidut, and would love seeing where he takes his products in the future!
     
  8. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    I don't think this happens. In theory we should be able to block the absorbtion of sodium and chloride well, otherwise people would be in trouble when swimming in seawasser. The problem is that you need a concentrated solution to enhance topical absorption. I already shared something about sulfate entering much earlier than magnesium in a transdermal study, I suspect it's similar with chloride. By the time you get enough magnesium, you'll already have too much chloride.

    No confusion. I didn't say chloride is toxic, it's just that it isn't as harmless as magnesium. If you have a supplement that provides way more chloride than magnesium, you'll be limited by how much chloride you can handle at a time. It's always present in blood, but the body objects amounts that cause disturbances. You can handle way more sodium chloride when it's part of a meal, such as one containing cheese than on empty stomach. This has to be applied to magnesium chloride regardless of the route.

    I think oral is better because you can adjust the dose based on taste.

    I don't have a link for that because charlatans aren't allowed to reference our claims. But really, it's just something I've noticed which I suspect to be related.
     
  9. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    @Amazoniac: in my previous post I tried to distinguish between chlorine and chloride. These are different compounds.

    Update status on the blog post:

    I've changed the recommendation in my blog to not use the magnesium oil more than once a day, specifically for preventing a chloride overload. If people want to supplement more often than once, they should take the glycinate, orotate, or taurate forms.

    I've additionally included the magnesium bicarbonate under the "good" forms, but need to read up on how to make that stuff, and do that myself. Sadly enough, there do not seem to be many specific studies inquiring into magnesium bicarbonate, but that problem is averted by studies that are done on bicarbonates in general. It's only the latter fact makes my recommendation valid and sound.
     
  10. Rick_F

    Rick_F Member

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    Sorry if you saw my post on this earlier and had no comment, but what do you think of magnesium acetate (made by combining magnesium hydroxide with vinegar). Asked RP if he tonight this could be a safe and absorbable magnesium supplement and he replied yes, so long as the MH is a pure source.
     
  11. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    ?

    The links here might interest you.

    If you compare the bicarbonate and chloride onions, the fact that the body is able to dispose any excess bicarbonate as gas means that it has a fast way to correct imbalances, this alone making it a safer choice. Chloride normalization depends on the health of the kidneys if I'm not wrong.

    If people with weak metabolisms can experience marked sodium loss or accumulation where it shouldn't, chloride will be balanced with what? On top of that bicarbonate production might be impaired as well. This is a good setting for a bit of extra chloride causing problems. It shouldn't be a concern as long as it tastes good.

    We also have to consider that people won't be reducing table salt consumption to compensate for the extra chloride with magnesium.

    If I sounded snobbish when I commented on the first page about not going into details, allow me to clarify that I've been repeating some of this information for some time already, so I vvas just assuming members are tired of reading the same thing owa and owa again.
     
  12. yerrag

    yerrag Member

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    What is the role of glycine and taurine as far as magnesium chloride intake is concerned?

    This is an issue with being an expert who has published books and committed to his proclamation of facts. As new information is discovered that would disprove his facts, it becomes difficult for an author to walk back what he has said. The attitude you have is noteworthy, as you had made mention of before, that what we know could change, as we are continually in a process of discovering new truths.

    And while there are many people we consider experts, there is hardly an expert who doesn't get it wrong in some aspects. We can be critical in appreciating and getting what they get right, and understand not to expect them to correct what they get wrong. Luckily, there are many views we can listen to, and we can, with enough study and thought, and discussion, arrive at a good salad of ideas very carefully picked likes perfectly ripe cherries in the field ;)
     
  13. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Protection against cell injury:
    - Glycine Is An Endotoxin (TLR4) Antagonist
    - How Much Sodium Is In The Diet? Is The RDA For Sodium Too High?

    For example, there was a group of pimps that made an experiment with rat retina, I don't remember how it was done, but I remember that in the absence of taurine, sodium chloride plus (light-induced) excitation caused the most damage, either one alone was less injurius but only when taurine was supplied that decent protection was conferred.

    It's easy to find material on this relation and protection.

    --
    Dicopper chloride trihydroxide - Wikipedia

    --
    Magnesium chlorid, unlike sodium chlorid, has another problem: most of magnesium must go inside the cell and chloride remain outside:
    Electrolyte Fluid Balance
    Like it vvas mentioned, if the person is losing sodium and not producing enough bicarbonate, magnesium chlorid can create some gross distortions if you don't need it or too much is taken at once.

    --
    Maybe it's possible to favor the HCl route by preloading with vit C or its balance and excretion with sodium bicarbonate.
     
  14. Elize

    Elize Member

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    Magnesium makes me shaky, sweat a lot as it lowers cortisol. Which form of. Magnesium will be good to use,? I have an elctrolyte imbalance and use no dairy due to thyroid/ adrenal high adrenaline issue.

    Thanks

    Elize Lotter
     
  15. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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  16. benaoao

    benaoao Member

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    I find it surprisingly doable to get close to 1g magnesium and maintain less than 1.5g calcium per day eating whole foods + spraying magnesium oil for an added 100/200mg

    I also want to keep phosphorus below 2g

    Some foods should be staples tho: spinach, sweet potatoes, lentils, rice, bananas, coconut chocolate and meats make it quite easy to reach 600-700mg at least

    Toying around with cronometer helps
     
  17. Obi-wan

    Obi-wan Member

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    An article from Carolyn Dean -

    A Medscape overview of mitochondria highlighted for me the extreme importance of magnesium, but inexplicably the article failed to mention magnesium. Let me summarize the article for you.

    Commonly known as the powerhouses of the cell the major role of mitochondria is to produce energy (ATP) in the Krebs cycle, using magnesium in 6 of its 8 steps. But its other roles include:

    Calcium homeostasis (which requires Mg)

    Apoptosis: cell death (triggered by Mg deficiency affecting telomerase)

    Free radical species generation (hastened by Mg deficiency)

    Radical species scavenging (assisted by Mg)

    Steroid biosynthesis (Mg aids in production)

    Orchestrate metabolism (Mg helps digest protein, fats, carbs)

    Our bodies make energy by breaking down food into an electrical charge that is sent across the membrane, making the inside of the mitochondria negative and the space between the mitochondria membranes positive. This charge potential difference is essentially a battery. The battery changes ADP to the energy molecule ATP.

    When the mitochondria fail to perform this process properly, mitochondrial disease results. However, there is no single test that can diagnose mitochondrial disease but apparently, researchers have identified nearly 300 different known genetic causes.

    These genetic mutations can be located either in the nucleus of the cell or in the DNA of the mitochondria itself. The first mitochondrial DNA disease was identified nearly 30 years ago, leading to an entirely new medical field. Much has been learned in a very short period, and we now know that any organ can be affected.

    Many people whose mitochondria fail to produce sufficient energy have neurologic problems. These can include strokes, seizures, and headaches such as migraines – all worsened by magnesium deficiency. Any part of the nervous system can be affected, including the peripheral and the autonomic nervous systems. Any organ that depends on energy to function—ie, all of them—can be affected. Common systems affected include muscles, kidneys, liver, vision, hearing, the hormonal system, and blood.

    When the author asked “Can Mitochondrial Disease Be Treated?” her answer was “Unfortunately, at this time, there are no proven therapies or cures for mitochondrial disease.” She said that exercise can help.

    Exercise can help make more mitochondria and can shift the levels of errors in the mitochondrial DNA and increase the function of those mitochondria. How does this happen specifically? When you exercise, your muscles require more energy in the form of ATP that is made in the mitochondria. I’m constantly reminding people that 6 of the 8 steps in the Krebs cycle to make ATP require magnesium. Oxygen is required during exercise, respiratory rate and heart rate increase. Both require magnesium. Without sufficient oxygen, lactic acid will form instead and magnesium is necessary to reduce lactic acid. Then there is the fact that it’s the tiny tears from the damage that exercise causes in your muscles that makes them grow bigger and stronger as they heal. Any type of inflammation, pain, or swelling in the muscles requires magnesium in order to heal.

    The author does acknowledge that it is increasingly recognized that nutrition and vitamins are very important to the functioning of the mitochondrial electron transport chain and all of the enzymes within it. The nutrients that are recommended do mention the B vitamins and antioxidants but ignore magnesium. She admits that they don’t understand the precise optimal diet for any one patient with mitochondrial disease. So, because they haven’t scientifically proven a diet protocol they make no recommendations.
     
  18. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    Hey Rick, this form seems very interesting. I will research this form in more detail once I re-write and update the article (probably next year). I don't have a definitive opinion on this magnesium form yet, but from what I've read, acetate might be promising!
     
  19. Rick_F

    Rick_F Member

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    Thanks for the reply! Yeah I haven't found much info about it in my limited web searching but it seems to be working alright so far.
     
  20. OP
    KalosKaiAgathos

    KalosKaiAgathos Member

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    First of all, you don't seem snobbish. All people have to search the forum - me included. Secondly, thank you very much for the correction to my article.

    I'd rather be an "expert" who assimilates all the criticism that others give him into a new system, than the traditional expert who will hold onto their opions no matter what.

    I agree that people should not reduce salt consumption to lower their chloride intake.
     
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