Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement

[Obi-wan]

Here's an interesting review:
Intestinal Absorption and Factors Influencing Bioavailability of Magnesium--An Update

" In principle, the relative bioavailability of Mg2+ is higher when the mineral is taken up in multiple low doses throughout the day compared to a single intake of a high amount of Mg2+."

"The uptake of Mg2+ can be influenced by physiological factors, such as age and the other food components in a meal. Inhibitory effects can be exerted by high levels of partly fermentable fibres (i.e., hemicellulose), non-fermentable fibres (i.e., cellulose and lignin) and phytate and oxalate. In contrast, the inhibitory effect of other minerals, such as calcium, was not supported because it only occurs when unphysiological amounts are given within a meal. In addition to inhibiting factors, several dietary factors are known to enhance Mg2+ uptake, including proteins, MCT, and low- or indigestible carbohydrates such as resistant starch, oligosaccharides, inulin, mannitol and lactulose."

Doesn't really address transdermal magnesium...which I think is the way to go...

 

[Amazoniac]

" In principle, the relative bioavailability of Mg2+ is higher when the mineral is taken up in multiple low doses throughout the day compared to a single intake of a high amount of Mg2+."

"The uptake of Mg2+ can be influenced by physiological factors, such as age and the other food components in a meal. Inhibitory effects can be exerted by high levels of partly fermentable fibres (i.e., hemicellulose), non-fermentable fibres (i.e., cellulose and lignin) and phytate and oxalate. In contrast, the inhibitory effect of other minerals, such as calcium, was not supported because it only occurs when unphysiological amounts are given within a meal. In addition to inhibiting factors, several dietary factors are known to enhance Mg2+ uptake, including proteins, MCT, and low- or indigestible carbohydrates such as resistant starch, oligosaccharides, inulin, mannitol and lactulose."

Doesn't really address transdermal magnesium...

But other gurus did:
Transdermal Magnesium

I don't think Zeus' product would be as effective without D and M and S and O.

 

[Obi-wan]

Per Zeus (@haidut for newbies)-

"As many forum users know, magnesium (Mg) is one of the most important minerals for proper metabolic function. It is a required cofactor for hundreds of metabolic enzymes, including the crucial mitochondrial enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), ATP synthesis, and ATP transport in the bloodstream (as a Mg-ATP complex). In addition, Mg plays an important role in various signalling mechanisms within the nervous system including GABA, NMDA, HPA, calcium channels, and so on. Peat has written a lot on the topic of Mg and sodium and their deficiencies in hypothyroidism. One recent metareview study concluded that 80%+ of people in the Western world suffer from some level of Mg deficiency. With that in mind, a lot of people are supplementing with oral Mg in an effort to raise both serum and tissue levels. However, there are a number of problems with that approach. The first one is that almost all of the Mg salts commonly sold as supplements have poor absorption from the GI tract. For most salts, the reported absorption is usually less than 40%. Out of that absorbed portion, an even smaller proportion is retained since Mg retention depends on thyroid and ATP (as mentioned above). According to several studies, only about 10%-15% of the absorbed Mg is retained within tissues. Finally, virtually all of the Mg salts sold as supplements tend to irritate the GI tract and/or easily cause diarrhea, and this is something Peat has reported first-hand. The combination of all of these factors makes Mg replenishment a VERY challenging tasks unless somebody is admitted to the ER/hospital and receives an IV drip of Mg. Clearly the latter is not a practical or desirable option for most people.

Some vendors have realized the issue with oral Mg supplementation and have tried to come up with transdermal products, which in principle should avoid the issues of GI irritation and poor absorption/retention. In addition, raising magnesium levels has been shown to reverse the age-associated decline in DHEA levels, and likely has similar beneficial effects on pregnenolone levels as well. However, the only commercially viable product that I have seen so far uses a concentrated magnesium chloride (Mg-Cl) solution (in water). Not only is that solution irritating to the skin but several studies that looked at blood and tissue biomarkers of Mg stores claimed that very little (if anything) gets absorbed from that product. This is not surprising, considering that water is a very poor carrier of chemicals through the skin (which has been confirmed in countless human trials) unless it is combined with a penetration enhancer of some sort. Some other vendors have tried to improve the transdermal effectiveness of Mg-Cl by adding ethanol, polyethylene glycol, propylene glycol, etc. The issue with that approach is that most magnesium salts are very poorly soluble in alcohols/glycols, which results in very little Mg being present in the product and thus the overall Mg delivery into the system is possibly even lower than the plain Mg-Cl + water combination." -Very good info IMO...

 

[Obi-wan]

But other gurus did:
Transdermal Magnesium

I don't think Zeus' product would be as effective without D and M and S and O.

But it works...(DMSO for newbies). I have been doing 5 drop back of neck applications for a total of 40 drops per day...666mgs...no more muscle cramps...

 

[bistecca]

Magnesium is super important and i've asked myself similar questions while arriving at different answers with respect to supplementation. I think if you back all the way up to studying geology and ecosystems, you see why everyone is so mg deficient. Magnesium is most present in mafic rocks(basalt is the most common), while most of the worlds soils are underlain by granite and felsic rocks, which don't have much magnesium. Areas where volvanic or tectonic activity have pushed Mg-rich basalt onto the surface of land, leading to the weathering of those rocks into soil, there is plenty of magnesium. Places where humanity has flourished for a long time are generally also areas where volcanic activity has enriched the soil. Cradle of humanity, the great rift valley in east africa is hugely volcanic, large areas of europe, the pacific ring of fire around the pacific ocean, large areas of india. Humans tend to cluster near volcanoes, even despite the risk they periodically pose, because the land near volcanoes is rich. Most of the soil near me has soil and water ca:mg ratios of between 10 and 20 to 1. Bottled waters from europe(gerolsteiner in germany and aqua panna in italy) have a ca:mg ratio closer to 3:1. The soil in europe is also largely derived from basalt. I drink aqua panna, which is a lot better then my own well water with respect to mg.

 

[yerrag]

You have magnesium hydroxide listed as bad which I found surprising. It has been recommended here as on of the best forms, when mixed with carbonated water, to make magnesium bicarbonate. Is it just that magnesium hydroxide by itself is bad, but when mixed with carbonated water becomes one of the best forms? Or is not even worth it?

I'm wondering why magnesium bicarbonate is not considered. I have very good experience with magnesium bicarb. It is expensive when you buy it, but very inexpensive when you DIY it. That is what I do. The nice thing about it is that it's easy to take, as you drink it. For people who don't like taking yet another pill, or mix yet another powder, drinking magnesium bicarbonate water is a very good alternative. I make magbicarb water for two older ladies, and I give them a ration of 2 1.5 liter bottles each week, and it is so easy for them to incorporate it into their routine. It's just like drinking water.

I don't agree magnesium chloride being recommended, especially when it's taken at therapeutic doses, which are high, and especially over a long period of time. The chloride anion is a strong acid load. I took 4800mg/day and by the 5th month, I was weakened. I was urinating a lot, sleeping less because I had to wake up so often to urinate, just because my kidneys had to work overtime in dealing with the acid load. Along with the urine, I was losing potassium and thiamine. I regained my allergy to MSG and to pollen, and I developed a cough that won't go away, and I was already taking 6,000 mg of vitamin C. Based on my experience, magnesium chloride is a big no no, and I would recommend classifying it under "ugly."

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

what evidence from traditional cultures show a 1:1 calcium to magnesium ratio? why would a traditional culture's food consumption mean it is healthy?

Thanks. This is a great question. I might change the ratio in the article to a 3:2 ratio, which might lie closer to reality.

Will copy and pain my answers to the same question someone asked in the Ray Peat inspired forum:

First, there is the "Scientific Evidence for Musculoskeletal, Bariatric, and Sports Nutrition" by Ingrid Kohlstadt source, on the ratios between magnesium and calcium in ancestral diets:

Second, there is the "Evolution of the Human Diet: Linking Our Ancestral Diet to Modern Functional Foods as a Means of Chronic Disease Prevention", by S Jew et al:

Observe that the foods which contain more magnesium than calcium (tubers, fish, shellfish, game, nuts) are roughly equal to the foods that contain more calcium than magnesium (fruits, vegetables, eggs).

For me, there is not much contest whether ancestral diets contained ROUGHLY the same amount of mangesium and calcium. If you bathe in seawater or in a lake, the 1,3 : 1 calcium to magenesium ratio will move closer to 1 : 1.

The more important question, which you correctly asked, is whether we should try to mimic an ancestral diet in the first place. This is a very hard and difficult question to deal with for me, and I cannot give a straightforward answer to this question. Of course, you can make the argument that many developments in human evolution give us massive advantages, such as bone broth, fire, and orange juice. On the other hand, I do think there's a danger of straying too much from our evolutionary lifestyle though.

If your calcium to magnesium ratio becomes too high (i.e., I consider the ratio too high above 2:1), I think you'll pay a price. On a Ray Peat diet, where it's easy to consume 4 grams of calcium, and 1 gram of magnesium per day, I think there will be an imbalance. Now, a mismatch with our evolutionary past is not the only argument that I'm brining in favor of the 1:1 ratio. A second argument is that Carolyn Dean (who's been mentioned in this thread before) has great clinical experience with the 1:1 ratio. I do have very good experience with that ratio too (or a 1,5c : 1m ratio instead), in myself, and in some clients.

I do want to say that this ratio is not set in stone. Every individual has to find their own individual ratio, and see what works for them. Even though I've used over 400 references in my magnesium article - to the best of my knowledge - there are NO high-quality double or triple blind RCTs with different calcium to magnesium ratios (e.g. 1:1; 1:1,5; 1:2; 1:3; 1:4, etc) to compare the effects of different ratios on different health outcomes.

But in a sense, I would also want to move beyond RCTs and the many cites in my magnesium blog post, and make sure different people experiment. Even though I've included more than 400+ references, I do think that the abudance of science can give you a false sense of security. Instead, I recommend everyone on this forum - yes literally everyone - to take their n=1 into account, and test the outcomes for themselves.

How?

Test a diet with 2 or 3 different calcium to magnesium ratios, and observe how you react. How do you feel? How are your magnesium deficiency symptoms? How do you sleep? How are your mangesium tests (such as the red blood cell test)? Even better, what is your Oura ring saying (this ring is HUGELY underappreciated here on the Ray Peat forum).

Everyone here on this forum is somewhat different. We have different environments, live at different latitudes, have different ages, different genetics (both nuclear and mitochondrial DNA), different jobs, different fatigue levels, etcetera. For that reason, the many cites can give a false sense of security.

You thus have to test yourself.

Don't trust me on my word. I've just synthesized the science as best as I could. But: don't blindly trust Ray Peat either. If there's one thing I've hoped to accomplish with my magnesium article, is that I've sowed some doubt whether it's better to consume way more calcium than magnesium, as is commonly done on different Ray Peat diets.

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

This picture did not display properly in the post above...

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

On magnesium bicarbonate: yes, I'm going to include that in the blog post by making an edit. Will rectify the mistake tomorrow. I agree that this form needs to be included.

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

But then there is Magnoil by IdeaLabs...20 drops is 333mgs transdermal and it works. This thread will correlate nicely with the thread Is Vitamin D Supplementation Even Necessary

Good read on Magnesium by Carolyn Dean Dr. Carolyn Dean, author of The Magnesium Miracle

She sells her on Magnesium lotion but it has PUFA in it...

Carolyn Dean is interesting, and has influenced my views on the 1:1 ratio, BUT she's got a lot of bad recommendations IMO. She recommends people eat nuts, grains, and seeds (preferably soaked or prepared in another method, not raw), to increase their magnesium levels.

The product she sells and promotes is also VERY expensive for a magnesium chloride supplement. She includes no references on why her supplement is different from other magnesium chloride supplements, so I'm going to assume that it's the same, until proven otherwise.

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

I can share a few magnesium anecdotes. It has been a challenge for me. A few years ago it caused an unbearable adrenal nightmare at just a 400mg dose - it went on for 4 months until I force fed and recovered (this killed my liver but the depression was better than the adrenal state). I was genuinely thinking about suicide before the end of that - it was completely and utterly relentlessly unbearable. I won’t go into too much detail as it’d be long!

Anyway, the long and short is that I couldn’t tolerate magnesium because I was depleted in nearly every sense, but namely very sodium and vitamin D depleted. I was sodium depleted because I wasn’t ever getting morning light and therefore my cortisol and aldosterone production were completely forked. Add overtraining to this and it explains the crash. Also add a high potassium low sodium diet...

I only recently discovered the morning light thing. I thought it was all vitamin D related beforehand, but realised you need very little vitamin D to tolerate magnesium (but you do need some). I don’t believe in the concept of adrenal fatigue - you just have severe calorie depletion and light deficiency due to poor metabolic health. The goal is to find a path to tolerating and enjoying more calories!

I digress; more on magnesium!

I find it always best to take with an acidic medium. I sometimes crush mag glycinate pills and drink them with orange juice or grapefruit. With magnesium chloride I squeeze the juice of a lemon into a 1.5 to 2L bottle of water and fill with water and the mag chloride dose. These methods pretty much remove the stomach discomfort aspect. As Amazoniac referred to above, you’ll likely want to balanced the chloride with (sodium) bicarbonate, though this can hinder the acidity so maybe only a quarter tsp, to taste. The bottle method is useful as it spaces your magnesium throughout the day which is pretty ideal for optimal uptake. Without the acidic medium mag chloride can cause a mega stomach ache. Getting enough mag from foods as you recover should be key so you can phase out supplements, but they can be handy for convenience when you can’t prep mag rich foods.

TLDR, I could not tolerate magnesium for years and now I can.

Very interesting, thanks! Magnesium chloride on the skin, or magnesium in the drinking water, might be the way to go for some people, I agree!

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

But other gurus did:
Transdermal Magnesium

I don't think Zeus' product would be as effective without D and M and S and O.

Check my references in the blog post about magnesium chloride. There are serious indications that magnesium chloride without DMSO is working.

But, of course, with a carrier, the transdermal absorption will be higher. So, I think Haidut is onto something, and I hope he keeps finetuning the product over time :)

In terms of logic, my argument on the transdermal absorption of magnesium choride is really inductive or abductive. I cannot rely on mulitple high-quality RCTs for making that argument, but I can rely on 1) a PhD thesis that was written on the subject, showing that the oil does absorb; 2) multiple pilot studies that were done on the transdermal absorption (showing good to great results); 3) thousands of individuals who've had benefits from transdermal magnesium.

Does transdermal magnesium work universally for everyone? Maybe not. Only the future will tell.

Solution?

Test for your n=1

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

Magnesium is super important and i've asked myself similar questions while arriving at different answers with respect to supplementation. I think if you back all the way up to studying geology and ecosystems, you see why everyone is so mg deficient. Magnesium is most present in mafic rocks(basalt is the most common), while most of the worlds soils are underlain by granite and felsic rocks, which don't have much magnesium. Areas where volvanic or tectonic activity have pushed Mg-rich basalt onto the surface of land, leading to the weathering of those rocks into soil, there is plenty of magnesium. Places where humanity has flourished for a long time are generally also areas where volcanic activity has enriched the soil. Cradle of humanity, the great rift valley in east africa is hugely volcanic, large areas of europe, the pacific ring of fire around the pacific ocean, large areas of india. Humans tend to cluster near volcanoes, even despite the risk they periodically pose, because the land near volcanoes is rich. Most of the soil near me has soil and water ca:mg ratios of between 10 and 20 to 1. Bottled waters from europe(gerolsteiner in germany and aqua panna in italy) have a ca:mg ratio closer to 3:1. The soil in europe is also largely derived from basalt. I drink aqua panna, which is a lot better then my own well water with respect to mg.

Thanks! I did include the soil in my argument, but did not consider the role of different rocks. What you're saying is correct though, as there are 10-fold differences in magnesium contents in different soils. For example, some parts of Egypt are shockingly high in magnesium. Some parts of the US are very low on magnesium, because the fertilizer used contains natrium and potassium, among others, but does not contain magnesium. That method of fertilization will slowly deplete the soils magnesium levels over time.

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

I'm wondering why magnesium bicarbonate is not considered. I have very good experience with magnesium bicarb. It is expensive when you buy it, but very inexpensive when you DIY it. That is what I do. The nice thing about it is that it's easy to take, as you drink it. For people who don't like taking yet another pill, or mix yet another powder, drinking magnesium bicarbonate water is a very good alternative. I make magbicarb water for two older ladies, and I give them a ration of 2 1.5 liter bottles each week, and it is so easy for them to incorporate it into their routine. It's just like drinking water.

I don't agree magnesium chloride being recommended, especially when it's taken at therapeutic doses, which are high, and especially over a long period of time. The chloride anion is a strong acid load. I took 4800mg/day and by the 5th month, I was weakened. I was urinating a lot, sleeping less because I had to wake up so often to urinate, just because my kidneys had to work overtime in dealing with the acid load. Along with the urine, I was losing potassium and thiamine. I regained my allergy to MSG and to pollen, and I developed a cough that won't go away, and I was already taking 6,000 mg of vitamin C. Based on my experience, magnesium chloride is a big no no, and I would recommend classifying it under "ugly."

I will look more closely into the chloride part. Thanks! And if these negatives of chloride are true, I will update my recommendations. Thanks again!!

 

[KalosKaiAgathos]

You have magnesium hydroxide listed as bad which I found surprising. It has been recommended here as on of the best forms, when mixed with carbonated water, to make magnesium bicarbonate. Is it just that magnesium hydroxide by itself is bad, but when mixed with carbonated water becomes one of the best forms? Or is not even worth it?

Great question. Magnesium hydroxide can cause laxative effects, in the same way that magnesium oxide (extreme) and magnesium citrate (less extreme) can. The problem with laxative effects is that you stop consuming magnesium before your body's cells are saturated. In other words, the laxative effects will occur even if you're still magnesium deficient - and people will usually stop consuming magnesium once they're getting diarrhea.

 

[Obi-wan]

Carolyn Dean is interesting, and has influenced my views on the 1:1 ratio, BUT she's got a lot of bad recommendations IMO. She recommends people eat nuts, grains, and seeds (preferably soaked or prepared in another method, not raw), to increase their magnesium levels.

The product she sells and promotes is also VERY expensive for a magnesium chloride supplement. She includes no references on why her supplement is different from other magnesium chloride supplements, so I'm going to assume that it's the same, until proven otherwise.

"It’s picometer-sized which means it’s absorbed 100% at the cellular level, so your cells have immediate access to usable magnesium. ReMag is a 60,000ppm concentration of 99.99% pure elemental pico meter magnesium. It’s 100% bio-available and can be used topically as well. Another bonus: no laxative effect!"

 

[Elize]

"It’s picometer-sized which means it’s absorbed 100% at the cellular level, so your cells have immediate access to usable magnesium. ReMag is a 60,000ppm concentration of 99.99% pure elemental pico meter magnesium. It’s 100% bio-available and can be used topically as well. Another bonus: no laxative effect!"

 

[Elize]

Strange ReMag did nothing for me

 

[Obi-wan]

Strange ReMag did nothing for me

The lotion had PUFA in it so I stopped using it. I am hanging my hat on Magnoil for now...

 

[yerrag]

I will look more closely into the chloride part. Thanks! And if these negatives of chloride are true, I will update my recommendations. Thanks again!!

The chloride isn't as much an issue as the different absorption rates of magnesium (30+%) and chloride (90+%). It would not have been an issue if the absorption rates were similar, as in sodium chloride, where both sodium and chloride ions have absorption rates at around 90%. The article attached is a very helpful read.