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Replacing Water With Fruit Juice (and More)

Discussion in 'Fruit Juice' started by TMoney, Apr 22, 2015.

  1. TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    I've come across this recommendation over and over again here. What if it simply doesn't work? Don't many people avoid juice because they're wary of the glycemic spike? This isn't a Ray Peat's-a-lunatic post; I'm genuinely trying to mine for information here.

    For most people I've surveyed (yes, I know anecdotal evidence can't be relied upon, shouldn't be considered in making an argument, etc., etc. etc, but let's be real: this is 2015, I have a ***t-ton of things I'd rather do than weigh the merits of a dietary-based claim by scouring the internet for days on end, and it's much easier to simply ask someone you know than shuffle through conflicting studies to figure out which one seems right to you), drinking orange (or cranberry or grape, or whatever) juice, even if it's pure, not from concentrate, organic, etc., doesn't really make them feel good. They get a boost of energy and know quickly where it's headed. The taste is addicting, though they're aware beforehand that drinking more probably isn't a good thing. It usually ends with them kicking themselves a few hours later.

    How do you avoid this? I'm sure someone will come back and say, well your progenelosotetrererone is slightly off, eat 6 oysters every night, make sure your sugar is ungranulated, and, if you can, snort the honey instead of eating it raw. But seriously. I think most people in the world have blood sugar issues. Most people, even if they eat a nominally healthy diet, don't do well with sugar. Right? I mean is this even debatable? And yes, I know most people, even if they think they're eating healthy, consume way too much vegetable oil, don't realize that stuff like Xanthum Gum and Soy Lecithin is inflammatory, and probably don't get enough gelatin on a weekly basis. But is all that stuff really essential? Do you need to follow this diet to a T in order for it to work? Can I have a handful of almonds here and there and not short-circuit the whole operation?

    I guess what I'm wondering is why this diet seems to work well for so many people, even for those who've claimed, as I am, to be insulin-sensitive and have too-high cortisol and adrenaline markers. The more you read, the more complicated it seems. Why can't I just avoid PUFA, eat ice cream, and walk around all day with a huge erection? It's gotta be easier than this!
     
  2. schultz

    schultz Member

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    Around 35% of Americans are obese.
    According to the WHO, in 2007, 74% of Americans were considered overweight.
    1 in 11 Americans has diabetes.
    1 out of 3 Americans are pre-diabetic.
    15-30% of people with pre-diabetes will develop type II diabetes in 5 years.

    According to these numbers, most Americans aren't optimally handling sugar. A lot of your anecdotal knowledge is based on a broken population. You need to find a healthy population to analyze instead.
     
  3. Zachs

    Zachs Member

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    if someone gets a sugar crash from a glass of juice, your talking to a very unhealthy person.

    Fruit juice is roughly half fructose and does not cause much of an insulin spike at all.

    I work in the produce section of a grocery store and It drives me nuts to listen to obese people talk about how they avoid fruit because of all the sugar.
     
  4. answersfound

    answersfound Member

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    You gotta add salt!!!!! You may need 5 teaspoons a day in addition to the salt in your food.

    Salt reduces adrenaline and helps you hold magnesium.
     
  5. tara

    tara Member

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    So do you want to post your progenelosotetrererone test results? How are you going with the oysters - I think 2-3 a day is probably enough. Make sure you don't eat it with your liver. Yeah, I'd favour ungranulated sugar if you can find good sources you tolerate (eg fruit/juice). I find topical application of honey more practical than snorting it. Tee hee.

    I know there is an overwhelming quantity of variously conflicting info out there, and it's not possible for most of us to sort through all of it ourselves. But if you want to get an idea on Peat's view point on it, I'd recommend reading his key articles on it. Here's one: http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gl ... etes.shtml

    My take on Peat's PoV is (I hope someone will challenge this if I've misinterpreted him):

    1. Many starchy foods (eg bread, rice, potatoes) spike blood glucose and insulin demand more than most sugar sources (eg fruit, honey, milk). Ie starches and other glucose-heavy carbs often have greater glycemic effect than corresponding quantities of sugars ie sucrose/glucose + fructose/lactose).

    2. Having fructose along with glucose in the system helps the liver store glycogen more effectively.

    3. Having fructose along with glucose in the system helps increase metabolism - ie increases the rate of glucose oxidation.

    4. When people are having diabetic issues, fructose can often be burned for fuel even when the cells are having trouble metabolising glucose. This helps maintain a steadier energy supply, which is key for all aspects of metabolism and health.

    5. Unless glycogen storage is really good, many people require feeding more often than after several hours anyway, especially if their metabolism is running fast enough to burn through the sugars quickly.

    6. Running on mainly fat instead of carbs, which may allow for longer fasts without crashing and/or craving, has its own set of potential health costs.

    7. A craving for sugar usually indicates a need for sugar. Responding to such cravings by drinking more juice is often supportive - ie it is meeting the bodies needs, not sabotaging it with harmful addiction. Slowing down the metabolism can make you last longer between meals, but can have many other negative effects.

    8. Adrenaline and cortisol can often be lowered by sufficiently frequent sugar intakes. Chronically high adrenaline and cortisol have associated health costs.

    9. Juices often bring with them minerals needed for metabolising sugars effectively (eg potassium, magnesium), more so than many starchy foods.

    10. Many other factors are also needed for efficient cellular oxidation of sugars (eg B-vits, CO2 and O2, lowish free fatty acids), and if they are absent, there can be problems.

    11. There isn't a single highly specific diet that will work for everyone, because our history and current states vary.

    Personally, I believed the anti-sugar pro-complex carbs advice for avoiding unstable blood sugars and ate low sugar high starch for many years. I still got hungry quickly after meals. I gradually started eating more sugar when pregnant out of blatant necessity, and in the last couple of years have increased it a great deal, while reducing starch to fairly low levels. I am currently trying out Peat's ideas to see if they can improve my sadly inadequate health - I don't assume he has the whole truth on everything, but his explanations so far give me a more cohesive framework to think about my health, and it encourages me to listen more to my body rather than think I have to constantly override it. I don't claim to have got my blood sugars totally stable, and I have not been testing blood glucose, so I don't really know what it's been doing. I spend a lot less time desperately hungry than I used to.

    Before I attempted to give up my "addiction" to sugar, I used to notice that I got a quick high followed by a long low after sugar. My current interpretation is that I was not getting enough protein, minerals and vitamins to sustain good sugar metabolism, and that I was often simply not eating enough or often enough, including sugar, especially early in the day. The local custom is large evening meals and light breakfasts and lunches. This still doesn't work for me.

    My take is, if it does not work for someone, then it doesn't make sense to persevere indefinitely, but it may take some time and a gradual process to adapt to a change in diet, and it may take some adjustments to work out what suits a particular person.
     
  6. answersfound

    answersfound Member

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    And no you don't have to follow this diet to a T. It's not like oysters are going to be the doffernce from you succeeding or not. The biggest things are avoiding PUFA and balancing muscle meats with gelatin. Other than that don't drive yourself crazy. Remember you are trying to boost your metabolism and feel warmer. So if the foods aren't workinf then it doesn't matter if they are on the "peat diet." Also you should consider cyproheptadine if you are really struggling. It will save you a lot of time and frustration. And I can't stress it enough, increase salt intake until your urine consistently has that yellowish color to it.
     
  7. tara

    tara Member

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    I agree with this, but would add that meeting all the basic nutritional needs on a fairly regular basis is probably also important - ie enough protein, carbs, vitamins and minerals, and overall calories.
     
  8. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    Good info, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of it.

    Few questions:

    1. What might it signify about you if you don't feel as if your thirst is quenched by simply drinking juice? I still feel the need to drink 4-6 oz of water after downing 8-10 oz of juice. Is that normal?

    2. What minerals in particular need to be absorbed sufficiently in order to ensure proper sugar metabolism? Is it just protein, potassium, and magnesium?

    3. I'm 6'1, 155. My metabolism is already super-fast. Will speeding it up with an increase in daily sugar intake (provided I'm consuming adequate protein and other essential nutrients) still benefit me?

    4 (most important). My recent bloodwork indicates my histamine levels are way out of balance. I'm working to address this emotionally, but I'm still having difficulty with the so-called histamine-rich foods (ie. citrus, dried fruits, chocolate). Is there Peat literature surrounding the reversal and/or correction of this issue? I'd like to drink orange juice, but I notice an near-immediate histamine response when I get too much, or when I have it too far away from protein. Should I avoid it, or is it just a matter of getting additional nutrients to calm it down?

    5. Bone broth is the ***t. I made my first batch last week, and I've never felt better. Approx how much of it do you have to consume for it to be considered an adequate source of protein and gelatin?

    6. Since upping my fruit intake, I've had to deal with the return of mouth ulcers, or canker sores. What's usually the deal if those are popping up?
     
  9. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    That's like a quarter of a salt shaker. How are you supposed to put that much on 2-3 eggs and 12-16 oz of meat per day? Or do you mix it in with OJ and milk?
     
  10. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    What does Peat recommend if you can't handle sugar or dairy? It's here that the diet seems to break down. If everything he suggests avoiding is toxic in some way, and you can't handle the things he does push, what the hell are you supposed to eat? Doesn't it just devolve into some sort of hybrid GAPS diet at that point?
     
  11. answersfound

    answersfound Member

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    Just because you are 6' 1" and 155 lbs does not mean your metabolism is fast. Actually, the opposite may be the case. You may have high stress hormones like adrenaline and cortisol which actually compensate for low metabolism. These type of people usually slip through the cracks when it comes to diagnosing hypothyroidism because they are not the stereotypical case. People typically associate hypothyroidism with being overweight. If you feel this may be the case for you and you cannot gain weight, you may want to consider cyproheptadine to increase your appetite and help you put on weight. When people take this med, a slow metabolism is actually revealed because the stress hormones are supressed and they feel like a zombie. Haidut on the forum has written about it a lot.

    I was once 6' and 135 lbs at 18 and 19 years old. I was ridiculously skinny. I was like a stick and I could eat anything and not gain weight. I was jacked and I had a six pack, despite working out minimally. I was also incredibly anxious, had depression, and lots of mood swings. I was probably bipolar from running on the stress hormones all the time. Probably similar to a guy like Robin Williams. I could make people laugh their asses off because I would be extremely eccentric and I could also slip into a very depressed state. I managed this state for many years until things crashed and I got mono. This was too much for my body to handle and after years of running on adrenaline I developed "chronic fatigue." So fast forward a couple years, I am 25 now and I am 6'1" 180 lbs. just a year ago I was 160 lbs. I finally feel like I'm at an appropriate weight for my height and wouldn't mind gaining more weight as I do strength training. My mood is a lot more stable. And this is all thanks to Cyproheptadine. Before cyproheptadine the thought of being over 165 lbs would have been almost impossible. This drug made things regular. No I'm not 100% but this med pushed things in the right direction for me. If you take this med, you will probably notice a big difference compared to the normal population who can't eat whatever they want and maintain their weight. Hypothyroidism can manifest itself it many different ways. This is just my observation, but I have found a lot of obese people to be very laid back and calm, probably because they have low thyroid and the stress hormones don't compensate. Meanwhile, I have found very skinny people like myself to be more anxious, irritable, sensitive, fearful, etc. because of the stress hormones. Sorry for the rambling, I'm on my phone and it's late, but I hope this helps!
     
  12. tara

    tara Member

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    Rambling response to questions ... :)

    1. I tend to advise juice instead of water etc when people are undereating and cold and peeing frequently, etc, but it doesn't necessarily apply to everyone. It varies from person to person, and I don't know about you, but I sometimes seem to need to drink water, and I'm not the only one. Peat has warned against drinking lots of water in the absence of thirst just because we've been told it's good for us, especially if we are also drinking lots of other fluids, like milk, juice, coffee. But it can still make sense to respond to thirst by drinking water. The tricky bit is that severe overhydration - hyponatremia - can also have thirst as a symptom. I tend to think in terms of both overall fluids for the day, and also overall calorie density. If you get all your carbs from juice and milk, you need a lot of it, and that's a lot of water. Most people aren't thirsty for a lot of water after that.
    Personally, I'm usually in the range of 2-3 litres of fluids/day, but needs can vary from person to person and over time depending on climate - temp and humidity, metabolic rate, and physical activity, calorie intake. Also, if I eat a lot of my calories (esp carbs) as solids, I'm more likely to need more water. But some days I drink a lot of juice, a bit of milky coffee, don't eat much starch or concentrated sugar, and don't need any water. Sometimes I dilute my juice - going by taste/thirst. If you can't tell by thirst, then the next easiest sign is colour and volume of output. If you are peeing clear and frequent, probably drinking too much. If dark and seldom, maybe try drinking more. My thirst sense got a bit deranged by me habitually overriding it for years with too much water. Now I can tell by drinking a little and seeing if it tastes good. Peat has talked about drinking a gallon of milk and a litre of OJ a day for long periods - he's probably been running a strong metabolism and sometimes in a warm environment.
    I've also learned that spreading drinks more evenly over the day works better for me than drinking huge quantities infrequently.


    2. I don't know all the details of what is needed for sugar metabolism, but I know Mg, P, protein, B-vits, are in there. If you haven't got another way to assess your nutrition, some of us find cronometer useful. It probably underestimates some needs (eg calories) and overestimates others (eg iron, PUFA), but it gives a rough idea. Peat generally recommends more calcium (~1200-2000mg) than phosphorus. All the essential micronutrients are needed to maintain health.

    3. I'm a couple of inches shorter than you and female ~ 50y, and last time I weighed as little as you do, a bit over a year ago, I decided I could see a too much of my ribs and it was time to try eating more. This may not apply to you - you may be naturally lean - but it doesn't seem like much to me.
    What makes you say you have a super-fast metabolism? Have you got thyroid test results, or been monitoring your body temps and pulse? Have you had a go at figuring out if it is running on stress hormones or thyroid?
    How much are you eating? For a man your height who is not super active, normal eating would probably be around or over 3000 cals. (This bit is not from Peat.)

    4. High histamine levels often go along with other high stress hormones. Some times more sugar and/or more salt can help. For me, I think my occasional mild hayfever coincides with lowish blood sugar - breakfast usually fixes my morningitis. If basic things like more sugar and salt don't help, Peat has mentioned two of the old antihistamines as eing safer than many of the newer ones: cyproheptadine and diphenhydramine. They can both have drowsy effects on some people, sometimes just for the first few doses as they adjust.
    I think Peat favours avoiding triggering acute allergic reactions/high histamine states. If particular foods seem to do this for you, it's probably worth experimenting to see if you can find a way around it, but not just keep subjecting yourself to this stress. Poster Mittir found he did not do well wiht OJ, but did very well with a particular brand of apple juice. Commercial OJ either from unripe oranges or with too much of the fibre etc still in it (sometimes chemically dissolved in it) bothers some people. If you can get fresh ripe oranges and squeeze and strain yourself, you can test and see if this gives you a better response.

    Peat recommends trying different sources of milk to find one that agrees with you. He has an article and at least one interview on milk - worth reading/listening to.
    Personally, I have found one cheap brand of commercial OJ that seems mostly OK for me as long as I add a tsp/l of baking soda to it, and 1 brand of clear apple juice that seems to mostly work for me. I also drink otehr juices from time to time, and eat a bit various fruits.
    I also have trouble with too much milk, and I'm guessing it's the histamine that makes aged cheeses too rough on me. I've been experimenting to see what milk I can get away with, but sometimes have to back off altogether for a few days.
    Sometimes allergies resolve when general health improves.
    If you can't drink milk, you can supplement calcium with either clean eggshell powder (Peat's preferred) or oystershell powder (I use this).
    If you are getting a lot of protein from meat, it can be good to also balance the more stressful amino acids in this with extra gelatine, and counter excess iron absorption by drinking coffee with it (I drink decaf, cause I'm still having trouble with the real thing).
    You can use cronometer to design a diet that covers basic nutrition with foods that agree with you. We all get to design our own diet from what we can get and what agrees with us. There isn't one that works for everyone. (This is my view - different opinions exist.)

    5. Yeah, it's hard to tell with broth. The way I think about it is, I know roughly how firm a jelly I can get with 1tbsp of powder to 500ml water. So I guess a similar consistency in stock would suggest similar amounts of gelatin. People vary in how much we use, mostly between about 10-50g/day. I think there are reports of benefits at around 20+g. Experiment.

    6. Not sure on ulcers/canker sores. I think there are a couple of threads on them if you search.

    Have you posted what you are here for? Do you have particular issues you are trying to improve, or just generally trying to figure out how to maintain health? Not that you have to, of course.
     
  13. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    Interesting. I did take Remeron (which, if you're unfamiliar, is a pretty powerful antihistamine) for about 16 months a couple years back (this is before I knew I had a histamine issue) and, though I didn't confirm via bloodwork, it was pretty obvious the stress hormones were suppressed. I often slept between 10 and 11 hours a day. It didn't kickstart my appetite like everyone said it would, though. I'm not sure I gained more than 5 pounds throughout the entire process.

    It is true that my cortisol and adrenaline levels have been chronically elevated. Until about two or three months ago, I was exactly like you described in the latter portion of the second paragraph.

    Forgive my ignorance, but how would one 'slip through the cracks' if they've been tested for an unbalanced thyroid? Wouldn't a simple test confirm if they had an underactive one? If no, what's the most reliable way? I've been to numerous specialists, none of whom has targeted the thyroid as a potential issue. The most recent one, who's directed me to undergo IV infusions twice a week (a standard Myers' cocktail), claims my metabolism is hyperfast as a result of my extremely reactive nervous system, which in turn's kicked the stress hormones into overdrive. Who knows if she has any idea what she's talking about, but she's a remarkably progressive doctor who gets rave reviews from patients worldwide. I don't care if she's an idiot or a savant; prove her wrong if you can. I just want to get better.
     
  14. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    Most recent GI (who's integrative and really progressive in her thinking, at least from what I've observed) said my metabolism is really fast. Not sure if thyroid was part of the endobiogenic blood exam I did, but I'll ask. She never mentioned it. Adrenaline was elevated. Cortisol was not, though I'm pretty much certain it's been an issue in the past.

    I eat ~3K calories a day. No weight gain. I've lost about 10-15 lbs since I stopped eating brown rice, corn and PUFA about 8 months ago (and I was already skinny to begin with.)

    I'm just trying to figure out the optimal way to live. I've thought about jumping on this train in the past, but I was never convinced I'd be able to handle both the large amounts of dairy and sugar this diet seems to demand. Decided to give it another go this week, and the results have been a bit mixed. For much of the day, I feel fantastic. My energy's as good as it's been in years, and I feel like I'm a much more positive person in general. Whereas in the past it was voracious, I now find myself with little appetite for negativity (it's been decreasing steadily over the last few months, but this week in particular I've noticed a profound shift.) I do, though, feel the need to eat every 1-2 hours, and if I go 3-4 without having protein, I get really shaky/jittery. (A lot of fruit at once seems to induce this as well) This hasn't been the case in the past, especially on days where I'd eat 4-5 potatoes with 4-5 tbsp of butter. Is the shakiness (both after eating a lot of fruit and in-between meals) a standard response to a profound shift in mineral intake?

    I'm also getting some bad brain fog from milk and ice cream. It's frustrating the hell of me, because they're such easy and pleasurable sources of protein and other micronutrients. I really, really, really want to be able to eat dairy. Is this a typical experience for people making the transition as well?
     
  15. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    oh, and my pulse generally hovers between 55 and 60. Temperature 98.3-98.7
     
  16. answersfound

    answersfound Member

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    Yea I was just speculating, but thyroid blood tests are typically very lenient, so you may test normal according to their standards, but you still have all the symptoms. For example, I think in the peat world your tsh should be under 1, but conventional doctors are fine a tsh in the 2-4 range. And if you look like your in good health (thin) then the doctor is probably less inclined to do further testing if for example, you were very overweight. i am certainly not an authority around here, I just wanted to provide some food for thought. Basically if your intuition tells you something isn't right you should trust it rather than let a doctor tell you that you are perfectly fine. I have found most doctors have told me everything is fine and I just have depression. Then some are convinced they know what's going on and have very interesting explanations like a "hyper fast metabolism". Only in the world of ray peat is there a logical explanation for everything and that's why peat has such a cult following. The guy has conmected all the dots.
     
  17. tara

    tara Member

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    It's great that your energy levels have improved - that's a really good sign. If you really have increased your metabolism with your changes, then you really might need more food to sustain it.
    I would ask for the specific numbers for any thyroid tests you've had, not just your drs interpretation. They often say it's fine when Peat would consider it suboptimal.
    High adrenaline and low pulse suggest possible lowish thyroid function. Adrenaline could be maintaining your temps.
    Salt can help against adrenaline, as well as eating enough.
    It could be you need more food, too.
    I get shaky if I go too long without carbs and protein too - had that problem on high starch too, and it's a bit less currently on high sugar and various other tactics. I've spent the last year trying to be really rigorous about avoiding this.
    Brain fog is my issue with too much milk too - I love milk and I hate the fog. Lets hope we find a way around it.

    If you are having difficulties with the transition, you can always make it more gradual. I'd still recommend prioritising keeping the PUFA low. Some people here seem to do better with some starches, other say they do best wiht none. I've never tried going without for long, and I feel like I need a little, but not much.
     
  18. tara

    tara Member

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    Peat suggests TSH under 1 is good, possibly under 0.4 is better, and that most people with TSH over 2 are not really healthy. Standard dr ranges go up to 4ish or 5ish depending on where you are. He has an article on his site that's worth reading. IIRC, it mentions an arbitrary decision to define euthyroid to include 95% of population, even though other ways of assessing it might have suggested up to 40% as at least slightly hypothyroid, and irrational systemic decisions to only assess TSH and only prescribe T4.
     
  19. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    felt sort of twitchy after eating a bunch of ice cream the other night and then again this morning after a day with a bunch of fruit/OJ. What might that indicate?

    and do you think the brain fog is a thyroid thing?
     
  20. OP
    TMoney

    TMoney Member

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    My tsh is 1.05
     
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