Remarkable Synergistic Effect Of Androsterone With DHEA

[satsumass]

My DHT doubled after using Pansterone for about 3 months. Since then it has been stable at the upper limit of normal. When I used just androsterone at 15mg daily for just a week the DHT went above the upper limit, so now I don't take as much and combine it with Pansterone. Current dosing is 8 drops Pansterone daily combined with 5 drops androsterone to get to a 1:1 ratio with DHEA. I feel like it helps a lot with recovery from exercise as even after a 90-minute soccer game I don't feel sore any more when I take it after the game. The next day is also pretty good and without it I feel like a beaten dog. It also helps a lot with sleep when taken before bed, probably due to the GABA agonism and increased conversion of T4 into T3.

I like this dose and ratio as I find too much pansterone can make me sleepy, but Do you have any suggestions regarding how to adjust for weight, or for concurrent use of test cyprionate? I am 275 lbs, lots of muscle but also a lot of fat, and on 150mg of test cyp weekly. Also, I think you mentioned more than 15mg of DHEA per day causes increased conversion to estrogen so that basically has been my guideline (no more than 24 drops pansterone) but not sure if that takes into account added potency of DMSO DHEA or not. I have taken creams and DHEA sublingualky before, about 25-50mg....

I am looking to improve energy, libido, general well being (I have chronic depression) and if I can get some added androgenic benefits that would be great. I have always had very thin hair on my legs, (I am a 36 year old male) but very hairy torso neck and scalp. My Adam's apple isn't visible and barely even palpable and I'd like a deeper voice...I did notice a week or two worth of using 11-Keto-DHT at varying doses my voice could go lower when I sang or wanted it to, but not speaking normally or by default. Hoping to just use pansterone plus androstene to get all the benefits of DHT and then some, at proper ratio and doses but Just afraid of fatigue and too much anti adrenaline effects (I take norepinephrine reuotske inhibitor for depression).

Thoughts and guidance would be appreciated

 

[haidut]

If you already take T, I would take no more than a single dose Pansterone daily (5mg pregnenolone and 5mg DHEA). Androsterone can still be used in doses up to 15mg daily. If you take only Pansterone and androsterone, I would take the same androsterone dose as the total DHEA daily dose you take from Pansterone. So, if you end up taking 15mg DHEA I would take 15mg androsterone.

 

[satsumass]

Thanks Haidut. I'm a bit confused though, as I always thought exogenous T shut down production of pregnenolone and DHEA, so that (at least) its a good idea to supplement pregnenolone (before pansterone was using 15mg transdermal cream). I definitely feel as though despite the dose of T raising me to high-normal range, the andosterone has helped substantially especially with getting more smiles from women. Might have some conversion issue downstream, not sure how i"d ever know that besides trial and error. Did try finastraside very briefly a good 5 years ago, but stopped due to depression. I was already dealing with chronic depression, though, so it just made it worse. Can't recall if stopping improved things notably but I presume it did. Couldn' thave been on it for more than 2-3 weeks.

 

[haidut]

You could consider adding meditation to your arsenal : http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/24/how-different-types-of-meditation-affect-the-brain/

So you've had :

1. lowish DHT
2. upper limits of normal range DHT (pansterone)
3. above range (pansterone + androsterone daily)

Did you feel significant changes in mood , libido and energy/strength with each of these steps?

You said you believed the increase in T and DHT took time to reflect in bloodwork as it was first used in tissues. Does that mean you did not feel the mental boost until the 3 months of supplementation? Last but not least, how did that build up of dht affect your erections (size, hardness..)?

Never had lowish DHT. It was upper 25% and after taking Pansterone for a few months it went over the limit by a lot. So, I backed down on the regularity of taking these supplements and now DHT is just a tad below the upper limit. The mental and mood effects are felt immediately. The blood levels take time to build up because you need to elevate DHEA-S levels to a point where the tissues do not gobble it up to synthesize DHT and enough floats around in blood to reach testicles and allow them to produce T and DHT from it. Blood levels of T and DHT are mostly an indication of gonadal activity and hormone reserves but do not really reflect tissue levels of these hormones.

 

[Wagner83]

I see, thanks!

 

[TheHound]

how long does it take to bring estrogen to a moderately lowish amount using this pan + andro combo?

 

[haidut]

how long does it take to bring estrogen to a moderately lowish amount using this pan + andro combo?

If androsterone is similar to exemestane, it should take about a week for the full anti-estrogenic effects to manifest but even on the first day there should be positive androgenic effects noticeable. Harder muscles, calmer and upbeat, better cognitive functioning, etc.

 

[TheHound]

If androsterone is similar to exemestane, it should take about a week for the full anti-estrogenic effects to manifest but even on the first day there should be positive androgenic effects noticeable. Harder muscles, calmer and upbeat, better cognitive functioning, etc.

is one of the symptoms of low estrogen dryer skin? I've been using the combo for a week. the first few days it resulted in a large reduction of acne all over. presently the skin under my beard is flaking a bit and I've gotten a slight breakout at the chin

at first I thought maybe the pansterone was converting to estrogen so I should reduce the pansterone dose. now I'm thinking perhaps estrogen is actually really low and I need to increase the pansterone to androsterone ratio

I was applying to the testes. maybe the andro is really potent here at reducing estrogen so I'm switching to wrists. I'll try 3 drops pansterone to 1 drop androsterone now

 

[haidut]

is one of the symptoms of low estrogen dryer skin? I've been using the combo for a week. the first few days it resulted in a large reduction of acne all over. presently the skin under my beard is flaking a bit and I've gotten a slight breakout at the chin

at first I thought maybe the pansterone was converting to estrogen so I should reduce the pansterone dose. now I'm thinking perhaps estrogen is actually really low and I need to increase the pansterone to androsterone ratio

I was applying to the testes. maybe the andro is really potent here at reducing estrogen so I'm switching to wrists. I'll try 3 drops pansterone to 1 drop androsterone now

Yes, dryer skin can be a symptom of low estrogen. I would do blood tests for estrone sulfate and prolactin if you are concerned about estrogen.

 

[Constatine]

Never had lowish DHT. It was upper 25% and after taking Pansterone for a few months it went over the limit by a lot. So, I backed down on the regularity of taking these supplements and now DHT is just a tad below the upper limit. The mental and mood effects are felt immediately. The blood levels take time to build up because you need to elevate DHEA-S levels to a point where the tissues do not gobble it up to synthesize DHT and enough floats around in blood to reach testicles and allow them to produce T and DHT from it. Blood levels of T and DHT are mostly an indication of gonadal activity and hormone reserves but do not really reflect tissue levels of these hormones.

Was there any down side to having DHT levels way above the reference range?

 

[haidut]

Was there any down side to having DHT levels way above the reference range?

None that I can think of, except freaking my doctor out

 

[Constatine]

None that I can think of, except freaking my doctor out :)

LOL. He/she was probably close to putting you on fin or something.

 

[haidut]

LOL. He/she was probably close to putting you on fin or something.

Close. He wanted to do ultrasound of my prostate but since my PSA was low he could not justify it to the insurance and decided not to do it. He still rolls his eyes when he sees my bloodwork on steroids.

 

[TubZy]

Was there any down side to having DHT levels way above the reference range?

A dramatic increase in appetite and libido (sometimes too distracting haha)

 

[Constatine]

A dramatic increase in appetite and libido (sometimes too distracting haha)

You know the side effects just sound terrible

 

[acrylic]

Close. He wanted to do ultrasound of my prostate but since my PSA was low he could not justify it to the insurance and decided not to do it. He still rolls his eyes when he sees my bloodwork on steroids.

Are there any negative side effects of ultrasound?

 

[haidut]

Are there any negative side effects of ultrasound?

I don't think so. At least it is much safer than X-Ray, which they sometimes still do as a quick check for prostate health. And of course radiate your gonads in the process so your T levels drop and also cause inflammation in the prostate so that it eventually blows up and start causing problems for them to "fix".
Ultrasound is anabolic to the bone and sometimes to the muscles as well (depending on frequency).

 

[satsumass]

If you already take T, I would take no more than a single dose Pansterone daily (5mg pregnenolone and 5mg DHEA). Androsterone can still be used in doses up to 15mg daily. If you take only Pansterone and androsterone, I would take the same androsterone dose as the total DHEA daily dose you take from Pansterone. So, if you end up taking 15mg DHEA I would take 15mg androsterone.

Why? I thought exogenous T shut down natural production of pregnenolone and DHEA so the need would be just as significant. Just curious as to your line of thinking in reducing pansterone vs increasing it. Mostly concerned about excessive estrogen from both T and higher dose pansterone?

 

[haidut]

Why? I thought exogenous T shut down natural production of pregnenolone and DHEA so the need would be just as significant. Just curious as to your line of thinking in reducing pansterone vs increasing it. Mostly concerned about excessive estrogen from both T and higher dose pansterone?

Pansterone itself raises tissue T and DHT, as does the extra T you take. So, the shutdown may be even more profound. Taking only pregnenolone is advised when supplementing T to restore steroid production. T and androsterone is a good combo to prevent aromatization of T. Adding DHEA on top of that may be too much. I have not experimented with this so from my point of view I would play it safe.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm curious about giving the pansterone a try; possibly with 11 keto dht or androsterone. Any reason to pick one over the other? I tried ashwagandha which has effects on GABA and it made me very sedated/lethargic even at smallish doses, I've seen androsterone is a GABA agonist too.

Why have you (haidut) switched from keto to androsterone?