Remarkable Synergistic Effect Of Androsterone With DHEA

[haidut]

Interesting. I initially felt great on this combination, libido boost, mental clarity. I was also taking a few other supplements that have been shown lower estrogen, cortisol and prolactin. I think I might have overdone things. One of the most unusual and pleasant aspects I got from this combo was the relief from chronic foot pain which I had been experiencing for months, especially in the morning.

I think that this pain was largely correlated to thyroid function and since this combo acts very much like a thyroid mimic that might have been why I was seeing the relief from foot pain.

My question is,
If I were to increase my T3/t4 (currently on 6mcgT3 and 12mcgT4) dose instead of using this Andro/DHEA combo, do you think that would be a way to get the same metabolic benefit without the loss of libido?

I know that when the thyroid is functioning properly that androgens greatly increase but I feel that it would be more likely to be balanced then with Andro and Dhea as said combo pretty much stops estrogen in its tracks whereas Thyroid improves overall metabolism and one of the consequences of that is lower estrogen, but I would theorize that it will be more harmonious.

Ideally, if thyroid is working well there should be not much need for extra steroids unless cholesterol levels are low and do not rise even with eating the right foods. I don't know what the tradeoff would be if thyroid dose is increased and by how much the steroid dose can be decreased. Symptoms would be a pretty good guide. Physiological doses of DHEA are 10mg - 15mg daily so if thyroid is working fine and DHEA-S levels are above the 25% percentile of the range then DHEA dose can probably be dropped to just a few mg daily. Pregnenolone in 15mg doses daily is probably beneficial no matter how good the thyroid is. Ray said if thyroid is working well then steroids may not be needed but I have not seen a person (unless they are in their teens) that has such good functioning thyroid.

 

[Wagner83]

Interesting. I initially felt great on this combination, libido boost, mental clarity. I was also taking a few other supplements that have been shown lower estrogen, cortisol and prolactin. I think I might have overdone things. One of the most unusual and pleasant aspects I got from this combo was the relief from chronic foot pain which I had been experiencing for months, especially in the morning.

How much pansterone and androsterone do you take? How long have you been taking them?
Without bloodwork to confirm any assumptions it's difficult to say anything but from all I've read on this forum (vast medical knowledge right ), reducing/removing the androsterone or taking clear time off everything are possibilities. Of course depending on whether T or estrogen/cortisol are suppressed the approach would be different. Getting bloodwork done would be wiser.

 

[Soren]

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How much pansterone and androsterone do you take? How long have you been taking them?
Without bloodwork to confirm any assumptions it's difficult to say anything but from all I've read on this forum (vast medical knowledge right ), reducing/removing the androsterone or taking clear time off everything are possibilities. Of course depending on whether T or estrogen/cortisol are suppressed the approach would be different. Getting bloodwork done would be wiser.

Thanks. I do need to get some bloodwork done. With the exception of one occasion where I took two doses, I never took more than 5mg of Androsterone and never more than one dose of Pansterone (5mg pregnenalone, 5mgDHEA) in a single day. I have been taking both together for about two months. I stopped for a few days and tried another dose yesterday and definitely had another decrease in libido, mind you not as profound as before. Today I have tried only one dose of Pansterone and no androsterone to see how I feel. Last time it only took about 24 hours of stopping both for libido to return. I am also taking 4 drops of Metergoline for serotonin and 6mcg t3 and 12mcg t4. When I stopped the Androsterone and Pansterone for a few days I did not stop the t3/t4 and libido returned pretty quick.

 

[Wagner83]

As I said on the androsterone thread, even 2 mg of androsterone had a profound effect on me so that I would still feel it the next day after taking it the evening the day before. 5 mg can be very potent, even more so on the testicles and given the potentiating effect of dmso. Your estrogens levels may be crushed too low.

For whatever it's worth, I would personnally get bloodwork done , take a week off most supplements , reassess my plan and build up slowly from there on (not use all supplements at once and stick to minor doses ). Do you know how each of your supplements affect you?

 

[sladerunner69]

I feel decreased effects so this seems to make sense for myself. I've switched out pansterone and androsterone for stressnon and a powdered pregnenolone by bulk powders.

You arent going to reset you sensitivity to pregnenelone then?

Ray peat recommends taking a few days break every couple months from all supplements, even vitamins

 

[DaveFoster]

I put my hand on my girlfriend's thigh and she was shocked

 

[mirc12354]

Ideally, if thyroid is working well there should be not much need for extra steroids unless cholesterol levels are low and do not rise even with eating the right foods. I don't know what the tradeoff would be if thyroid dose is increased and by how much the steroid dose can be decreased. Symptoms would be a pretty good guide. Physiological doses of DHEA are 10mg - 15mg daily so if thyroid is working fine and DHEA-S levels are above the 25% percentile of the range then DHEA dose can probably be dropped to just a few mg daily. Pregnenolone in 15mg doses daily is probably beneficial no matter how good the thyroid is. Ray said if thyroid is working well then steroids may not be needed but I have not seen a person (unless they are in their teens) that has such good functioning thyroid.

by 25 % percentile you mean higher than the lowest 25 % percent of the range or do you mean in top 25 % percent of the range?
Thank you.

 

[haidut]

by 25 % percentile you mean higher than the lowest 25 % percent of the range or do you mean in top 25 % percent of the range?
Thank you.

I meant the bottom 25%. If it was the higher 25% I would typically say "above the 75% percentile" range.

 

[grenade]

Sources for what - the lack of suppression? I think some of the older studies with Atromid showed that it did not cause suppression in doses that provided 50mg androsterone x 3 daily for a total of 150mg daily. These studies are in the original post.

Hey Haidut, do you mean the OP in this thread, or in your first thread that you made on androsterone - I'm having trouble finding the study.

Would you mind linking it again, or giving the title of the study?

 

[johnwester130]

stupid question : what does the synergy of dhea and androsterone do ?

 

[Braveheart]

Since androsterone can suppress endogenous steroid production in high doses or with very long chronic administration, I would watch for signs of decreased libido, energy, etc and maybe take a break for a week. If used sporadically, say every other day, I think this combination can probably be used indefinitely without much risk of suppression.

So, I 'm not "spinning my wheels" with my conservative 4 drops Pansterone and 2 drops Androsterone, every other day...levels will slowly continue to build up?...I have no way of testing here.

 

[haidut]

So, I 'm not "spinning my wheels" with my conservative 4 drops Pansterone and 2 drops Androsterone, every other day...levels will slowly continue to build up?...I have no way of testing here.

The 2 drops andorsterone are physiological dose and should not result in suppression. Anything up to say 15mg - 20mg would be physiological. Androsterone is the metabolite of T, DHT, and the backdoor pathway through allopregnanolone so a healthy male probably produces at least 6mg - 8mg in 24 hours.

 

[PUTFOT]

@haidut Can androsterone or 11keto deplete natural DHEA?

 

[haidut]

@haidut Can androsterone or 11keto deplete natural DHEA?

Not aware that either steroid can lower DHEA levels as neither one is known to inhibit 17,20-lyase (the key enzyme for DHEA synthesis from pregnenolone). In fact, the human study with 150mg androsterone daily increased DHEA levels in these people by almost 2-fold.

 

[ilikecats]

@haidut do you think excessive androsterone will inhibit the effects of dhea only if they are applied at the Same time? In other words could the dhea and androsterone be applied with the 1:1 ratio and then androsterone could be applied by itself later in the day without messing with the effects of Dhea? Or no?

 

[haidut]

@haidut do you think excessive androsterone will inhibit the effects of dhea only if they are applied at the Same time? In other words could the dhea and androsterone be applied with the 1:1 ratio and then androsterone could be applied by itself later in the day without messing with the effects of Dhea? Or no?

I think it you wait a few hours after the application of the DHEA/androsterone combo you can probably add more androsterone as by that time the initial dose would have been metabolized into other steroids. Of course, the dose matters, so I would keep each dose at no more than 5mg DHEA/andro if you want to apply more androsterone later.

 

[ilikecats]

@haidut thanks for the response. Just got 4 more bottles of androsterone! :)

 

[TeslaFan]

I think it is a combination of lifestyle, diet, overmedicalization, and above all lack of sense of purpose. Every object in the Universe is purposeful (at least in the Aristotelian sense) and constantly driving the message into people's heads that life has no purpose, everything is meaningless and dumb, etc. has a powerful vanquishing effect on the mind/brain. Health is primarily a byproduct of mental outlook + diet and both of these are horrific these days. I also think people are really not free nowadays and we live in a masked slavery where every moment of a person's life is a discrete transaction, usually controlled by somebody else and done for money. If reality is continuous and our brain does best in an environment rewarding such worldview, then this transactional/reductionist lifestyle is like the physiological anti-Christ that came upon this world.

Agree. And I'd like to stress out estrogenic-type birth control as one important cause. Never have women in human history been chronically exposed to synthetic estrogens for so many years prior to becoming mothers. Tissue-bound estrogen keeps accumulating, and then these women get pregnant. It's hard to believe that male offspring would not be affected.
Having said this, I am very pro choice, but believe that alternative, non-hormonal options should be preferred in family planning.

 

[Regina]

I think it is a combination of lifestyle, diet, overmedicalization, and above all lack of sense of purpose. Every object in the Universe is purposeful (at least in the Aristotelian sense) and constantly driving the message into people's heads that life has no purpose, everything is meaningless and dumb, etc. has a powerful vanquishing effect on the mind/brain. Health is primarily a byproduct of mental outlook + diet and both of these are horrific these days. I also think people are really not free nowadays and we live in a masked slavery where every moment of a person's life is a discrete transaction, usually controlled by somebody else and done for money. If reality is continuous and our brain does best in an environment rewarding such worldview, then this transactional/reductionist lifestyle is like the physiological anti-Christ that came upon this world.

(this is one of my favorite Haidut missives)

 

[Jsaute21]

I take as needed, usually after stressful days or lifting weights. Probably average about 3-4 times weekly. Trying not to take supplements every day but focus more on food and avoiding stress. As you can imagine the latter part is where I often fail as it is not under my control most of the time. That's why I think most people nowadays need some sort of supplementation to keep them going. For many it is coffee/caffeine, for others it is some kind of vitamin or thyroid and for others it is steroids.

@haidut do you feel if strength training should only be used once one's metabolism is close to firing on all cylinders, or could be a tool used to elevate the metabolism/hormones in itself?