Remarkable Synergistic Effect Of Androsterone With DHEA

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tca300

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" Han Selye's famous work with rats shows that when stress exhausts the adrenal glands (so they are unable to produce normal amounts of cortisone and related steroid hormones), arthritis and other "degenerative" diseases are likely to develop. "
From - Blocking Tissue Destruction

Those supplements can directly be lowering your Cortisol too low, or they can be causing an intense increase in your metabolic rate in which your energy needs are not being met, therefore stress city. DHT, DHEA, and PREG all lower cortisol. All at once, might be too powerful.
 

chispas

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OK, so Androsterone arrived in the mail yesterday and I wanted to give it a try.

Preamble: I haven't been feeling my usual sense of wellness, due to recovering from a common cold, and experiencing some congestion, blocked ears, etc. I started to wonder if this was due to low vitamin D status owing to the amount of work I do inside a corporate environment, so I decided to take 2000IUs of D3 per day for a week. I also combined this with a bit of B6 (10mg) and magnesium (500mg) for good measure (small amounts, nothing drastic). I noticed during the period of sickness that my desire for protein diminished, which didn't have good effects, so I had to make the effort to increase it back to the usual quantity, which is around 180g a day.

My point in relaying this information is that I don't feel as though I am currently in some "peak" metabolic condition. I feel above average despite sleeping well and being in a general good mood all the time. The bad feelings are related to a sense of fatigue, possibly stemming from overwork, which I am still working on correcting. I've even stopped going to the gym for the last two weeks to try and minimise further stress.

Despite all this, I wanted to see how Androsterone felt. I was expecting nothing at all. So this is what happened:

Applied five drops Androsterone on left crook of arm (approx 5mg). Applied five drops Pansterone to right crook of arm (approx 5mg).
Following application, I sat on the couch and started reading.
After fifteen minutes there were two superficial red welts on the area of application. It itched a bit, but I didn't scratch the skin.
A very obvious sense of my arms and hands warming up followed.
I put my hand on my girlfriend's thigh and she was shocked at how hot my hand was.
I was worried that the heat indicated a stress response, but I didn't feel stressed at all.
I measured my heart rate, and it was 100bpm. This is the highest resting heart rate I've achieved to date - usually its sits at 80.
Walking around, going to the shops, living life like normal, I felt in a pretty good mood. Smiling, laughing, happy.
Both forearms looked a little red as if I had been sun burnt.
5 hours later, my heart rate is 95. Despite the high heart rate, I cannot actually feel my heart beating very hard.
My hands are still burning hot, and my mood is good.

Because I don't want to overdo it, I'm not going to use the supplement for a couple of days, and do it again mid-week.
Is this good practice?
 

chispas

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On the evening preceding my catching of a common cold, I felt a bit shivery and under the weather. I thought maybe I should see how I feel with a spot of T3. I applied one drop of Tyronene to my wrist before I left the office. On the bus home, I started feeling very stressed in my environment, which is weird for me because I never get anxious, like I had to remove myself from the bus (which was really uncomfortable, and hot, stuck in traffic with loud rattling sound from the engine). I happened to check my heart beat, which was pounding in my chest, but my heart rate wasn't very fast - just 75bpm. The beating was heavy and hard though.

I got off the bus, got a sweet fizzy drink, felt better. Got home, had no appetite - assumed high adrenaline. Tried to consume as many easily digestible foods as I desired, but felt sore throat near bedtime. Was sick next day.

Compare to right now, where post-Androsterone I have a heart rate of 95, and can't even sense it unless I check it against my watch. It's surreal.
 

satsumass

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@haidut after a few weeks of the androsterone plus low dose pansterone only I have realized that I isn't doing the Job for some reason that 11-keto-DHT did. Not sure why. I do get the GABA effects. Reminder that I'm on test cyp for TRT. Decided to go back to just 11-keto-DHT for a while as with the androsterone only I didn't see accelerated hair growth or the voice deepening effects I saw with kept taken over time.

Wondering though whether this is a good idea given 11-keto-DHT has longer half life and seems to be a nit stronger. Was enjoying the musk scent of androsterone and its pheromone effect and wondering if 11-keto-DHT converts into androsterone as well OR has known pheromone activity as well? Noticed I seem to get too bloated so I do need to watch my pansterone use.

Would Test plus DHT also provide benefits as mentioned in the first post in the thread?
 

chispas

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It's interesting that so many report a musk scent, as I can't smell it and neither can my girlfriend, and she is extremely sensitive to scents.
 
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haidut

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@haidut after a few weeks of the androsterone plus low dose pansterone only I have realized that I isn't doing the Job for some reason that 11-keto-DHT did. Not sure why. I do get the GABA effects. Reminder that I'm on test cyp for TRT. Decided to go back to just 11-keto-DHT for a while as with the androsterone only I didn't see accelerated hair growth or the voice deepening effects I saw with kept taken over time.

Wondering though whether this is a good idea given 11-keto-DHT has longer half life and seems to be a nit stronger. Was enjoying the musk scent of androsterone and its pheromone effect and wondering if 11-keto-DHT converts into androsterone as well OR has known pheromone activity as well? Noticed I seem to get too bloated so I do need to watch my pansterone use.

Would Test plus DHT also provide benefits as mentioned in the first post in the thread?

I think the T plus DHT combo would be as close ideal for a male as possible. I would sell it if it were legal, and the DHEA + androsterone combo is the closest legal alternative. Maybe even DHEA + T + DHT would be even better, but not much has been studies in term so such TRT.
DHT does metabolize into androsterone so you should get the pheromone effects with it too.
 

Wagner83

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I think the T plus DHT combo would be as close ideal for a male as possible. I would sell it if it were legal, and the DHEA + androsterone combo is the closest legal alternative. Maybe even DHEA + T + DHT would be even better, but not much has been studies in term so such TRT.
DHT does metabolize into androsterone so you should get the pheromone effects with it too.

Do you mean exogenous T+dht is best for guys who are shut down ? Or do you mean supplementing T+dht in pysiological amounts would be ideal for anyone ?
I can see why the second part would be a yes but then why would anyone prefer precurors over identical hormones ? Especially since dht is not suppressive in low doses.
 
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haidut

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Do you mean exogenous T+dht is best for guys who are shut down ? Or do you mean supplementing T+dht in pysiological amounts would be ideal for anyone ?
I can see why the second part would be a yes but then why would anyone prefer precurors over identical hormones ? Especially since dht is not suppressive in low doses.

The second part. The reason people would still choose to use precursors are probably two The precursors are usually legal and thus easier to obtain. The second reason is that we don't know the full steroigenic pathways and all metabolites created through them. So, until we know more it is probably best to include a precursor as well. I think this is one of the reasons Peat always responds to people asking him about using T or DHT with something along the lines of "...and adding some DHEA would be better".
 

Velve921

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My father is 64 years old and has been taking Pansterone for 3 months at 2-4 drops per day; he's also taken an antihistamine for years before bed time. Would there be any merit for time to try Androsterone before bed time? I've had tremendous success with using Androsterone for sleep.
 
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haidut

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My father is 64 years old and has been taking Pansterone for 3 months at 2-4 drops per day; he's also taken an antihistamine for years before bed time. Would there be any merit for time to try Androsterone before bed time? I've had tremendous success with using Androsterone for sleep.

As long as the doctor does not think the androsterone would interfere with the antihistamine, then I don't see why not. Many people use GABA agonists for sleep and I think they are better than antihistamines since the latter tend to cause excessive drowsiness the next day.
 

Wagner83

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The second part. The reason people would still choose to use precursors are probably two The precursors are usually legal and thus easier to obtain. The second reason is that we don't know the full steroigenic pathways and all metabolites created through them. So, until we know more it is probably best to include a precursor as well. I think this is one of the reasons Peat always responds to people asking him about using T or DHT with something along the lines of "...and adding some DHEA would be better".

Ok so somehow using only dht + t could potentially create other imbalances or just make us miss on some other important metabolites? A bit of dht along with androsterone makes sense then, well unless enough dht is produced from the androsterone or dhea+pregnenolone.
Maybe adding dht would be convenient to get the tissues dht levels up quicker.
 
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haidut

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Ok so somehow using only dht + t could potentially create other imbalances or just make us miss on some other important metabolites? A bit of dht along with androsterone makes sense then, well unless enough dht is produced from the androsterone or dhea+pregnenolone.
Maybe adding dht would be convenient to get the tissues dht levels up quicker.

Yes, the more end-point steroids you use the more risk you have of creating disbalances upwards the chain since there is usually a feedback mechanism of some sorts. So, if steroids have to be combined I would combine ideally DHEA + DHT + T, and if you only have two of them I would do DHT + DHEA or T + DHEA. The DHEA itself has very prometabolic effects and has some metabolites that are absolutely crucial for immunity. So, I think DHEA should be present in any combo. Pregnenolone + dhea + androsterone is probably the best legal way to optimize steroids as you get the strong androgen androsterone, the systemic health-promoter DHEA, and the progesteogenic and steroid synthesis boosting effects of pregnenolone. If DHT was legal, I would use that instead of androsterone, but if you look at the master thread on androsterone you will see that it converts back to DHT rather easily and is a true DHT prohormone without much of a chance of converting into something harmful.
 

Wagner83

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Ok thanks! If I experiment on a rat do you think 11-keto dht can be used instead of dht or do we not know enough about it yet?
 

satsumass

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I think the T plus DHT combo would be as close ideal for a male as possible. I would sell it if it were legal, and the DHEA + androsterone combo is the closest legal alternative. Maybe even DHEA + T + DHT would be even better, but not much has been studies in term so such TRT.
DHT does metabolize into androsterone so you should get the pheromone effects with it too.

Thanks. I guess just for the sake of being absolutely clear are you referring here to 11-keto-DHT , as that was what I meant in my final question. So T plus 11-keto-DHT should be sufficient, perhaps with some DHEA (why not just use pregnenolone ). Also, does 11-keto-DHT convert to androsterone as well? Do we know enough to say whether the use of 11-keto-DHT at a reasonable low dose (say 2-5mg/day of your drops) on a rat using TRT would reduce normal DHT production at all?

Just want to make sure I'm not blocking any important pathway for my rat.
 
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haidut

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Thanks. I guess just for the sake of being absolutely clear are you referring here to 11-keto-DHT , as that was what I meant in my final question. So T plus 11-keto-DHT should be sufficient, perhaps with some DHEA (why not just use pregnenolone ). Also, does 11-keto-DHT convert to androsterone as well? Do we know enough to say whether the use of 11-keto-DHT at a reasonable low dose (say 2-5mg/day of your drops) on a rat using TRT would reduce normal DHT production at all?

Just want to make sure I'm not blocking any important pathway for my rat.

11-keto DHT seems to have the same pharmacological profile as DHT. I don't think it blocks endogenous DHT production. Also, it does not convert into androsterone but to 11-keto-3b-androstanediol and then gets excreted. I can't discuss supplementing with 11-keto DHT, it is for research use only. But you should have enough info to draw conclusions. Taking pregnenolone usually does not raise DHEA much, so for most people adding some DHEA would be needed. Look at the human studied with pregnenolone and schizophrenia.
 

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11-keto DHT seems to have the same pharmacological profile as DHT. I don't think it blocks endogenous DHT production. Also, it does not convert into androsterone but to 11-keto-3b-androstanediol and then gets excreted. I can't discuss supplementing with 11-keto DHT, it is for research use only. But you should have enough info to draw conclusions. Taking pregnenolone usually does not raise DHEA much, so for most people adding some DHEA would be needed. Look at the human studied with pregnenolone and schizophrenia.

Ok thanks, interesting. What do we know about 11-keto-3b-androstanediol and would excessive amounts of 11-keto-DHT cause problems if too much 11-keto-3b-androstanediol is created? Wikipedia says that 3b-androstanediol is a potent estrogenical compound....
 
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just be sensitive. Don't give your rats more than a few milligrams. Check their symptoms, how tired and listless they are, their libido and mating behavior. You won't want a lot of this anyway.

I prefer giving my research animals androsterone and pansterone as it seems more beneficial to them...a little goes a long way.
 
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Ok thanks, interesting. What do we know about 11-keto-3b-androstanediol and would excessive amounts of 11-keto-DHT cause problems if too much 11-keto-3b-androstanediol is created? Wikipedia says that 3b-androstanediol is a potent estrogenical compound....

I don't think the 11-keto-3-diol is estrogenic but not much has been studied about it. As far as regular 3-diol, keep in mind that while it MAY be estrogenic it is a precursor to DHT and in vivo studies shows administration of 3-diol raised DHT levels. So, the net effect of raised 3-diol could be very well be androgenic.
 

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Haidut,

I've currently been taking 10mg of androsterone before bed time and 10mg of Pansterone per day for 2 months; taking 10mg of androsterone before bed time initially knocked me out pretty hard and created best sleep I've seen in a couple years. I think you've mentioned in another thread that cycling time off of a steroid could be beneficial...any thoughts based on the information I've given? My nightly urination is still 2x a night on avg. so ive not found the answer to sleeping through the night soundly.
 
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Haidut,

I've currently been taking 10mg of androsterone before bed time and 10mg of Pansterone per day for 2 months; taking 10mg of androsterone before bed time initially knocked me out pretty hard and created best sleep I've seen in a couple years. I think you've mentioned in another thread that cycling time off of a steroid could be beneficial...any thoughts based on the information I've given? My nightly urination is still 2x a night on avg. so ive not found the answer to sleeping through the night soundly.

I think it is worth cycling as androsterone is a prohormone to DHT and other androgens. Also, androsterone itself and these androgens can all inhibit estrogen synthesis and if it becomes too low it can cause symptoms. As Ray said, steroids fat away from the original source (cholesterol/pregnenolone) should be used sparingly and in lower doses. The 10mg daily dose is probably OK, especially when used with Pansterone but you may also want to try androsterone only combined with say 100mg oral pregnenolone.
 

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