Red Light Therapy / LLLT Cures Hypothyroid?

[bailadora]

Alternatively, read the thread and decide for yourself. Gasp! Or read all the other zillion threads on red light. Don't just go with one person's authoritarian recommendation.

 

[Strongbad]

Gez bailadora, I've been off forum for 2 weeks and I get called as an authoritarian? That's mean that's not cool. What have I ever done to you?

BTW, I searched around and 880nm may not be the best wavelength after all:

http://heelspurs.com/led.html

880 nm verses 850 nm
There are some companies that claim 880 is "the best" frequency, but it appears 880 is absolutely not as good as 850 or 830 nm LEDs. 880 LEDs are putting out frequencies in the range of 870 to 890 and are getting blocked 25% more by water absorption than 850 and the biological response to 880 nm is much less than at 850 nm (see Optimum Wavelengths section).

Another interesting insights on different wavelengths:

830 nm verses 850 nm
Judging from the biological response to different wavelengths, it would appear 830 nm is the best of all wavelengths. But 850 nm may reach deep tissue better, and has a few more photons per mW/cm^2. The 830 nm LED is harder to find, and I don't know if its efficiency is as good as the more common 850. In the end, there may not be any difference between the two. There is other test tube work that showed 850 nm worked better than 830 nm for inflammation markers and my own experience has not been able to tell a difference for ankle, shoulder, and back injuries.

830 nm might work better by something like 30% but it's exponentially decreasing in strength by something like 10% in the exponential. At some point, the exponential effect on the 10% becomes larger than the 30%. This means that for the skin or cuts less than 2 mm deep, you would need to apply the 850 nm light 13 minutes instead of 10 minutes for the 830 nm. You save only 3 minutes by using the 830 nm, if it works better. But for deep injuries more than 1/2 inch, where you might need to apply the 850 nm for an hour, you might need to apply the 830 nm for 2 hours ... a huge difference. A similar effect might exist for 660 nm verses 670 nm, but I do not know which one penetrates better due to the complex nature of blood absorption in this range.

670 nm verses 830 nm
670 nm and 830 nm are probably better than 660 nm and 850 nm, but maybe not by a lot. I've seen one article that says 670 nm worked better on the retina than 830 nm eventhough more photons were available from the 830 nm. Since 830 nm is a lower frequency it has more photons per mW/cm^2, which means they could have given too high a dose because the CCO response is on a per photon basis, but I believe that is unlikely as they also suspected in the paper. Another thing to consider is that the 670 nm is a higher energy which can have more of an effect than 830 nm if there is a threshold of energy needed, which is probably the case. Another thing is that their operation on the CCO is different: one oxidizes it and the other reduces it. I have notice a 630 nm LED seemed to work a lot better than 850 on pain from a cut, but the energy from the 630 LED was more concentrated. I have enjoyed my LED helmet that combined 660 nm and 850 nm a lot more than my 850-only helmet, but it is impossible to know if it was just from the nice tingling of the scalp the red causes or if it was something on the cortex.

930 nm and above
It appears any wavelength longer than 930 nm will start to have too much of its energy blocked by the water in tissue. See the non-ablative part of the skin section for how 1000-1500 nm can be used to burn the color out of spot and have other beneficial effects.

 

[Strongbad]

I have tried a red light therapy bed much like this one
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Red-Light-Thera ... 1120086769
It lasted 14 minutes. I felt good at first then felt over stressed from too much stimulation at once I suppose.
I am unsure if the bulbs are very good (flouro) despite being 633nm.

If you feel over stressed that means your glycogen is empty and/or you use it too long. You need to eat and get your glycogen full first before using red light therapy.

 

[Strongbad]

I was thinking to order from LED man. Do you hold the unit right on your face (touching) or is it set up on some kind of stand? I wish there was something hands free I could wear as a mask, lol!

Also why 660 + 880? Wouldn't it be more effective for skin to use 660 only? Or is there some bigger benefit from having both in the one unit.

Could you hold it to your thyroid also, or is that not safe with the 660?

I have the Baby Quasar and LightStim. They are ok, but they don't cover that much of your face so it can take a good 30-60 minutes to do 1-2 passes.

Apparently 880nm is not as good as 830nm and 850nm Just found out about it.

660 only penetrate skin-deep. It can't even reach the thyroid. Only possible with 800-ish and above nm.

I saw your other thread about red light for acne treatment. If you're going to get the one with blue light along with red led, http://heelspurs.com/led.html says

DO NOT LOOK AT BLUE LEDS!

(what he says)

 

[Strongbad]

So iv been messing with 650, 860 or whatever and heat lamps for a few weeks now and overall I gotta say that plain ol 4$ heat lamp bulbs make me feel much more awesome than led. In fact I see no improvements on anything related to 650 and 860 makes me feel warm and tingly but also strangely not right. Can't really explain it but it feels a bit like radiation or something. If I put it on my stomach for awhile it starts to gurgle and whatnot, on thyroid and throat gets a bit sore.

500 watts of heat lamp bulbs on the other hand make me feel as good as a long day on a sunny beach, almost better even because I'm energized afterwords. It also is an instant libido enhancer and my eyes feel better after looking in the light for awhile.

Overall unless you have some big issues you want to experiment with like hypo or hairloss, skip the led arrays and go for heat lamp, halogen or incandescent for that broad spectrum, warming glowing warming glow. Not much better than waking up and shining that on ya for a half hour while in bed.

That's great that heat lamp makes you "feel awesome". But the original experiment is about whether red light therapy cures hypothyroid, not whether red therapy makes a person feel awesome.

So what is your afternoon temp and pulse after using 850nm on thyroid twice a week, 15-20 minutes per session?

If I put it on my stomach for awhile it starts to gurgle and whatnot, on thyroid and throat gets a bit sore.

That means it works as intended. Those LEDs are supposed to stimulate metabolism in the covered area/organ to accelerate healing. If your throat gets a bit sore, then my guess is that you're not hypothyroid to begin with (so putting LEDs on thyroid is overkill), you're already using thyroid supplement like cypro/NDT so your thyroid is already at normal level prior to therapy (LEDs is overkill in this scenario), you didn't eat enough before the therapy so glycogen is empty during session, you use the light too long or combination of those.

 

[Strongbad]

As for me, I stopped using 850nm for my thyroid 2 weeks ago. My temps these days are around 98.6F-98.8F. I conclude that it did cure my hypothyroidism. I don't know how long it'll last or whether the hypothyroidism will come back at all. But if it does, I'll just do another 1 or 2 sessions just for "maintenance". Much easier than taking thyroid supplement.

I can't speak for anyone else. I just hope that everyone will get similar results and cure themselves out of hypothyroidism. It's an experiment, after all. Just like bailadora says, read the thread and decide for yourself.

Now that my hypothyroid is fixed, I'm drifting away from the forum and Peat's work. Okay, maybe for pregnenolone and DHEA experiments... But I understand the basic idea of Peat diet, what to eat and what to avoid like PUFA, nuts etc. And that's good enough for me. Nothing more.

Peace out (for now) and have a great summer! :)

 

[bailadora]

Gez bailadora, I've been off forum for 2 weeks and I get called as an authoritarian? That's mean that's not cool. What have I ever done to you?

BTW, I searched around and 880nm may not be the best wavelength after all:

http://heelspurs.com/led.html

880 nm verses 850 nm
There are some companies that claim 880 is "the best" frequency, but it appears 880 is absolutely not as good as 850 or 830 nm LEDs. 880 LEDs are putting out frequencies in the range of 870 to 890 and are getting blocked 25% more by water absorption than 850 and the biological response to 880 nm is much less than at 850 nm (see Optimum Wavelengths section).

Another interesting insights on different wavelengths:

830 nm verses 850 nm
Judging from the biological response to different wavelengths, it would appear 830 nm is the best of all wavelengths. But 850 nm may reach deep tissue better, and has a few more photons per mW/cm^2. The 830 nm LED is harder to find, and I don't know if its efficiency is as good as the more common 850. In the end, there may not be any difference between the two. There is other test tube work that showed 850 nm worked better than 830 nm for inflammation markers and my own experience has not been able to tell a difference for ankle, shoulder, and back injuries.

830 nm might work better by something like 30% but it's exponentially decreasing in strength by something like 10% in the exponential. At some point, the exponential effect on the 10% becomes larger than the 30%. This means that for the skin or cuts less than 2 mm deep, you would need to apply the 850 nm light 13 minutes instead of 10 minutes for the 830 nm. You save only 3 minutes by using the 830 nm, if it works better. But for deep injuries more than 1/2 inch, where you might need to apply the 850 nm for an hour, you might need to apply the 830 nm for 2 hours ... a huge difference. A similar effect might exist for 660 nm verses 670 nm, but I do not know which one penetrates better due to the complex nature of blood absorption in this range.

670 nm verses 830 nm
670 nm and 830 nm are probably better than 660 nm and 850 nm, but maybe not by a lot. I've seen one article that says 670 nm worked better on the retina than 830 nm eventhough more photons were available from the 830 nm. Since 830 nm is a lower frequency it has more photons per mW/cm^2, which means they could have given too high a dose because the CCO response is on a per photon basis, but I believe that is unlikely as they also suspected in the paper. Another thing to consider is that the 670 nm is a higher energy which can have more of an effect than 830 nm if there is a threshold of energy needed, which is probably the case. Another thing is that their operation on the CCO is different: one oxidizes it and the other reduces it. I have notice a 630 nm LED seemed to work a lot better than 850 on pain from a cut, but the energy from the 630 LED was more concentrated. I have enjoyed my LED helmet that combined 660 nm and 850 nm a lot more than my 850-only helmet, but it is impossible to know if it was just from the nice tingling of the scalp the red causes or if it was something on the cortex.

930 nm and above
It appears any wavelength longer than 930 nm will start to have too much of its energy blocked by the water in tissue. See the non-ablative part of the skin section for how 1000-1500 nm can be used to burn the color out of spot and have other beneficial effects.

Not you I was referring to Zach's "recommendation".

 

[bailadora]

As for me, I stopped using 850nm for my thyroid 2 weeks ago. My temps these days are around 98.6F-98.8F. I conclude that it did cure my hypothyroidism. I don't know how long it'll last or whether the hypothyroidism will come back at all. But if it does, I'll just do another 1 or 2 sessions just for "maintenance". Much easier than taking thyroid supplement.

I can't speak for anyone else. I just hope that everyone will get similar results and cure themselves out of hypothyroidism. It's an experiment, after all. Just like bailadora says, read the thread and decide for yourself.

Now that my hypothyroid is fixed, I'm drifting away from the forum and Peat's work. Okay, maybe for pregnenolone and DHEA experiments... But I understand the basic idea of Peat diet, what to eat and what to avoid like PUFA, nuts etc. And that's good enough for me. Nothing more.

Peace out (for now) and have a great summer! :)

Thanks for your updates Strongbad.
I too stopped with the thyroid. But I'm still using intermittently on my scalp and body for the other benefits. I am. It so certain I have cured anything but I'm in my 40's and have a lot of years of bad/healthy eating to ivercome.
I have the 660/880 cause that is what I had on hand. I may order another one in the more favorable ranges.

 

[Strongbad]

Thanks for your updates Strongbad.
I too stopped with the thyroid. But I'm still using intermittently on my scalp and body for the other benefits. I am. It so certain I have cured anything but I'm in my 40's and have a lot of years of bad/healthy eating to ivercome.
I have the 660/880 cause that is what I had on hand. I may order another one in the more favorable ranges.

Sorry that I misunderstood you, baidora :)

Anyway, yeah you might want to try 850nm or even 830nm as illustrated by the original lllt/hypothyroid study. Hopefully, it'll give you much better result.

 

[ilovethesea]

Apparently 880nm is not as good as 830nm and 850nm Just found out about it.

660 only penetrate skin-deep. It can't even reach the thyroid. Only possible with 800-ish and above nm.

I saw your other thread about red light for acne treatment. If you're going to get the one with blue light along with red led, http://heelspurs.com/led.html says

DO NOT LOOK AT BLUE LEDS!

(what he says)

Thanks. So would the 800 spectrum be even better for a skin/acne treatment than 660, since it penetrates more deeply?

Ok is it better to stick with 2 different lights for different purposes. One for skin and one to hold on my thyroid (because I need all the help I can get for hypo).

I'm not going to do anything with blue light.

I wonder if there is some way to do a homemade version of the light sensitizing topical they put on you in the doctor's office treatments.

 

[DKayJoe]

Hi all, could someone possibly proof these LED's I just bought? I'm gonna solder them up to a power back and create my own device but I just want to check I have the right ones...

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/5mm-red-led-uk19v

As far as I can tell these will do the job (right wavelength, pretty good brightness) the only thing that makes me skeptical about them is that the lens is also red which I was not expecting.

Also, for people doing this on their scalp, hows it been going? Any visible progress?

 

[cantstoppeating]

Hi all, could someone possibly proof these LED's I just bought? I'm gonna solder them up to a power back and create my own device but I just want to check I have the right ones...

http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/5mm-red-led-uk19v

As far as I can tell these will do the job (right wavelength, pretty good brightness) the only thing that makes me skeptical about them is that the lens is also red which I was not expecting.

Also, for people doing this on their scalp, hows it been going? Any visible progress?

Yup, those are fine.

Many people here are trying to find the highest watt incandescent bulb which is a big mistake. Peat's knowledge of lighs is largely outdated; LED lights are far more energy efficient, providing more light (lumens) per watt.

The two options are:

1) buy a high-lumen LED bulb, as many needed to get to 5,000 lumens and make sure it's labeled as 'warm light' or a kelvin (i.e. colour temperature) of around 2700-3500 (to make sure most of the light emitted is of the beneficial wavelengths).

or,

2) buy/make a LED board with LEDs of specific wavelengths.


High watt incandescent bulbs or 'heat lamps' should only be bought if you want the extra heat that comes with the light, otherwise they're an inefficient and expensive-to-run antique.

 

[DKayJoe]

Awesome thanks cantstoppeating , I can't wait to get this bad boy going! Learn how to solder/create parallel circuits and experiment with light therapy at the same time, it's like a double win.

Once I've built it and started using it I'll report back with benefits. At the moment I've been using a phillips red light designed for muscle recovery (it's not ideal as it's a wide range wavelength), whilst it hasn't seem to do much with my scalp one thing I will say is it makes me feel so relaxed and sleepy after a days work it's unreal!

Onwards and upwards.

 

[cantstoppeating]

For reference, if you're going to buy a light bulb, here are the ideal ones to get:



First choice is to get a few high-lumen, 'warm white'/2700k, LED bulbs like the above. You'll find them on ebay under 'led bulb'.



Second choice is the mainstream Philips bulbs. It's 2700k (same as an incandescent, meaning most of its emitted light is within the beneficial red range), low watt (thereby using relatively low amount of electricity) and high lumens (emitting lots of light). It's not a LED bulb but a CFL (compact fluorescent light) so not as energy efficient as a LED but still much better than an incandescent bulb.

Having 3 to 7 of those pointed at you around your work area, with reflector shades like below is all that's needed.

 

[tara]

As for me, I stopped using 850nm for my thyroid 2 weeks ago. My temps these days are around 98.6F-98.8F. I conclude that it did cure my hypothyroidism. I don't know how long it'll last or whether the hypothyroidism will come back at all. But if it does, I'll just do another 1 or 2 sessions just for "maintenance". Much easier than taking thyroid supplement.

Great! Congratulations.

 

[FredSonoma]

Sorry if this has already been posted - is this the right thing? It says it's an 850 nm LED light

 

[tara]

Second choice is the mainstream Philips bulbs. It's 2700k (same as an incandescent, meaning most of its emitted light is within the beneficial red range), low watt (thereby using relatively low amount of electricity) and high lumens (emitting lots of light). It's not a LED bulb but a CFL (compact fluorescent light) so not as energy efficient as a LED but still much better than an incandescent bulb.

Is this right? I have several warm white CFLs in my house, and I was thinking these would emit too much blue, and should aim to improve on them.

Found refernce to some other warm white LED bulb locally, but nowhere near as strong as the one you show:
Color rendering index (CRI)
80
Color temperature
3000 K
Light effect/finish
Warm White
Light output
806 lumen
Does the higher colour temp (3000>2700) mean it has more blue and less red?

 

[cantstoppeating]

As you can see in the graph above, 3000k is ideal and what I favour. Going lower to 2700k would eliminate all blue light, but also reduce the total output of wavelengths shown to be most beneficial i.e. 600-800nm.

LED, CFL and incandescent are just the light technology, what determines whether they're beneficial or not is their colour temperature i.e. kelvin.

Everyone should be using LED or CFL bulbs since they're cheaper to run and just as, if not more, effective than incandescents.

 

[tara]

As you can see in the graph above, 3000k is ideal and what I favour. Going lower to 2700k would eliminate all blue light, but also reduce the total output of wavelengths shown to be most beneficial i.e. 600-800nm.

LED, CFL and incandescent are just the light technology, what determines whether they're beneficial or not is their colour temperature i.e. kelvin.

Everyone should be using LED or CFL bulbs since they're cheaper to run and just as, if not more, effective than incandescents.

Thanks for hunting that graph out and refreshing me on it, cantstop.
That makes me happier about my regular household lighting. And makes me think that just having more of it at that 3000K colour temp would be good.

 

[dd99]

Thanks, cantstoppeating, that's interesting. But it's counter to what others have said in the forum about the spectrum of warm white LEDs, which appear to have a spike in the blue wavelengths. I'm on my mobile, so can't post images, so here are some links with graphs:

Http://www.eluxinc.com/resources.html

http://m.electronicdesign.com/site-file ... fig_01.gif

http://www.carnivorousplants.org/howto/ ... ng.LED.php


In addition, there appears to be some risk of eye damage from (admittedly cooler) white LED lighting:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/122-a81/

I personally find LED lighting irritates my eyes, unlike halogens or incandescents which have better spectrums. (My brother in law is a TV presenter and they've had to remove LEDs from the studio because of the high frequency flickering and irritation to presenters eyes when they look directly at a light.)

The best and reddest, of course, is candle or fire light.