Red Light Therapy / LLLT Cures Hypothyroid?

[Daniel11]

It seems to me that people are using red light for different issues, not related to hypothyroidism which is the topic of the thread. I'm just curious what are people using red light for if it is not for hypothyroidism? Is it for general wellness and better cognitive/mental functioning or to treat a specific ailment? Also, how well has the light worked and have the results been consistent and reliable throughout the period you have been using it for?

Here is a link to a list of the conditions red light is good for...

General Skin & Body Health - Red Light Man

 

[Daniel11]

Red-Infrared Combo Mini - Red Light Man

Thank you for your reply @Daniel11
It seems that your views are different from most people's on here. The light I have greatly benefits me so will keep using it.

Rosie, i think how your using your light is fine, its short time on each location plus your light is only small percentage of infrared mixed with other visible wavelengths.

My concern and as Ray wrote to you that infrared is good if not used in excess… I feel that the infrared wavelengths held close to the body and used for longer times (3-8 min) per targeted location as needed for photobiomodulation may be in excess and too overheating to the tissue, glands and organs, especially when used daily and weekly for long term use.

 

[lollipop]

Is it for general wellness

Hi @sirilynn, this is what I use it for; one of a plethora of “tools” for wellbeing.

 

[lollipop]

I think this light is a better choice...

Orange and Red Light Therapy - LGS1

+1 really solid light and reasonably priced. When I started using, I saw immediate effects: temps went up and I noticed if I wasn’t fed, it made me ravenous I reviewed it on the thread - solid construction for the price...

 

[Inaut]

thanks for talking me into buying it @lisaferraro and @Daniel11 :)

 

[Daniel11]

This is article is helpful for understanding the term Photobiomodulation.

“We were delighted to be informed recently that the term photobiomodulation therapy will be added to the MeSH database for its 2016 version as an entry term to the existing record of laser therapy, low-level. It will be indexed with terms on this record, starting in November 2015. The addition of photobiomodulation therapy to the MeSH vocabulary is an important step in defining what this therapy precisely represents. The use of this term is key, as it distinguishes photobiomodulation therapy, which is non-thermal, from the popular use of light-based devices for simple heating of tissues as can be accomplished using near-infrared (NIR) lamps, or other applications of light energy that rely on thermal effects for all or part of their mechanism of action. This fact will likely also have significant impact on safety and regulation of commercial products specifically marketed for this use.”

Low-Level Light/Laser Therapy Versus Photobiomodulation Therapy

 

[sirilynn]

Rosie, i think how your using your light is fine, its short time on each location plus your light is only small percentage of infrared mixed with other visible wavelengths.

My concern and as Ray wrote to you that infrared is good if not used in excess… I feel that the infrared wavelengths held close to the body and used for longer times (3-8 min) per targeted location as needed for photobiomodulation may be in excess and too overheating to the tissue, glands and organs, especially when used daily and weekly for long term use.

is it possible that red light could overheat tissue if you use it too long also? Is it power and length of time that determines the effects or wavelength?

 

[x-ray peat]

is it possible that red light could overheat tissue if you used it too long also? Is it power and length of time that determines the time or wavelength?

The wavelength should be accounted for in the power measurement. Do you know what your light puts out in mW/cm^2

And yes you can over do it and cause some tissue damage. Recommended doses Ive seen are from 10 J/cm2 to 70 J/cm2

 

[dreamcatcher]

Rosie, i think how your using your light is fine, its short time on each location plus your light is only small percentage of infrared mixed with other visible wavelengths.

My concern and as Ray wrote to you that infrared is good if not used in excess… I feel that the infrared wavelengths held close to the body and used for longer times (3-8 min) per targeted location as needed for photobiomodulation may be in excess and too overheating to the tissue, glands and organs, especially when used daily and weekly for long term use.

@Daniel11 thank you:) would 50cm length be a better option? Red light man recommended me this particular product for wrinkles, hair loss and thyroid..how would you use it? I can't afford to buy another red light atm. Thank you.

 

[sirilynn]

3 weeks! I started immediately after it resolved but this time with the 830-nm light and for much shorter periods of time. The 660 one is what caused the inflammation but I used it for 10-15 minutes when it did that. Which is probably way overboard (although I did it at a greater distance).

On an unrelated note. When I used to take thyroid hormones, specifically T3, I used to take it in small pieces throughout the day. And every time that I would take it in the morning, I would get drowsy several hours later and I had to take a nap around 1-2 PM. I am now using the halogen lamp for transcranial LLLT (shining the light into my forehead for 20 minutes) and the EXACT same thing happens to me, I get drowsy in the early afternoon. To me this is proof that these lights can definitely increase hormones, even when not pointed directly at the gland itself.

which hormones do you think are being increased by using the halogen light on your forehead? How would doing this affect your T3 levels?

Do you know what causes you to be drowsy when you took T3? I found that T3 made me feel sleepy too, like lethargic. It's interesting that T3 is used to treat depression since it didn't seem to give any highs at all. Taking T4 increases my energy levels, but not T3. T3 in its raw form had a sedentary effect on me.

 

[Blossom]

Do you know what causes you to be drowsy when you took T3?

I have heard it can do that in some people by lowering stress hormones.

 

[sirilynn]

I have heard it can do that in some people by lowering stress hormones.

thanks!

 

[sirilynn]

I don't think red light is an effective treatment for hypothyroidism and if used, it should be done with great care. I don't think it's been proven that red light can help improve hypothyroidism and may lead to the false hope that thyroid conditions can be fixed using red light.

I think it is situation dependent, but for people who have a true thyroid condition where they are dependent on thyroid medicine for their thyroid hormones, it is risky to use red light for the thyroid. First of all, the changes to the thyroid are not measurable, and it interferes with the thyroid hormone supplementation which relies on a fixed dose to be effective. Second of all, when using red light, it seems to require more nutrition requirements to cope with the additional energy that is needed to respond to the red light. This appears to overtax the liver which is used for thyroid production of T4 to T3. This will lower the effectiveness of the thyroid hormone supplementation and in effect make hypothyroidism worse in the short term.

This is just my 2 cents. I think that people can try this, but should not have great expectations in curing hypothyroidism by using red light.

 

[ebs]

I don't think red light is an effective treatment for hypothyroidism and if used, it should be done with great care. I don't think it's been proven that red light can help improve hypothyroidism and may lead to the false hope that thyroid conditions can be fixed using red light.

I think it is situation dependent, but for people who have a true thyroid condition where they are dependent on thyroid medicine for their thyroid hormones, it is risky to use red light for the thyroid. First of all, the changes to the thyroid are not measurable, and it interferes with the thyroid hormone supplementation which relies on a fixed dose to be effective. Second of all, when using red light, it seems to require more nutrition requirements to cope with the additional energy that is needed to respond to the red light. This appears to overtax the liver which is used for thyroid production of T4 to T3. This will lower the effectiveness of the thyroid hormone supplementation and in effect make hypothyroidism worse in the short term.

This is just my 2 cents. I think that people can try this, but should not have great expectations in curing hypothyroidism by using red light.

Depends on how you define hypothyroidism. I'm not dependent on thyroid medicine but the last time I did a bloodtest in january my tsh was over 2.0. According to the Ray Peat doctrine hardliners that makes me full-blown hypothyroid.

So based on your hypothesis, if you have mild hypothyroid and not dependable on medicines red light might be beneficial and could potentially cure the symtoms. There's scientific evidence that supports it in case you didn't know.

 

[sirilynn]

Depends on how you define hypothyroidism. I'm not dependent on thyroid medicine but the last time I did a bloodtest in january my tsh was over 2.0. According to the Ray Peat doctrine hardliners that makes me full-blown hypothyroid.

So based on your hypothesis, if you have mild hypothyroid and not dependable on medicines red light might be beneficial and could potentially cure the symptoms. There's scientific evidence that supports it in case you didn't know.

I am aware that there are 1 or 2 studies in Brazil where they showed that using low laser light therapy, people who were taking thyroid medications to deal with hypothyroidism were able to take less medications after 9 months. However, it was only 1 or 2 studies and it doesn't necessarily mean that it will work for everyone who tries this. Also, they didn't do a follow up study to see if conditions remained the same, and if these group of people were cured for life from their condition. I think it's great they have studies that showed it was effective, but it's hard to draw conclusions that this works for all people in every case when there have only been 1 or 2 studies by one group of researchers over a 5 year period. I'm just saying the results aren't conclusive enough to say whether it will work for all people or just the people in the study.

I'm not a doctor and don't really know all the conditions for hypothyroid. I'm learning a lot from talking to other people here and other places however. I do wonder why there are people who are hypothyroid and don't need medication for it. I mean does it mean they feel pretty good most of the time and can function reasonably even though they are low thyroid? I don't have this condition, so I can't relate to it. Also, if you have low thyroid and it doesn't bother you so much, it probably doesn't affect your quality of life to the degree where you are doing poorly because of your condition. Also, if you have mild hypothyroidism where you don't need medicine for it, maybe some slight changes like diet or lifestyle can compensate for it and by changing these, your thyroid may start to work more. In these cases, I would say you have a pretty good thyroid all things considered and maybe a few slight tweaks in your lifestyle or diet can help your body work better, including your thyroid. Since you don't need medication, shining red light like once a week or so may be enough to catapult your body into great shape or any other health improvements that would affect your general health.

However, there are people who really don't have a thyroid that works much at all and need like 150 mcg or even 100 mcg of thyroid hormones everyday since their thyroid really doesn't work. It's not the same as taking like 25 mcg or some minimal dosage where your thyroid is still supplying the bulk of the thyroid hormones to get through the day. In the Brazilian study, which I have the link below, they said that there were 23 people who were able to reduce their medications from 106.88 +/- 22.90 mcg to 38.59 +/- mcg a day. They were not cured of hypothyroidism but were able to reduce their medications. It is promising that they were able to drop their hormone supplementation by 70 mcg, but it's hard to say if it was permanent or whatever changes they had in their life as a result of this.

Low-level laser in the treatment of patients with hypothyroidism induced by chronic autoimmune thyroiditis: a randomized, placebo-controlled clinic... - PubMed - NCBI

[The results showed a significant difference in the mean levothyroxine dose required to treat the hypothyroidism between the L group (38.59 ± 20.22 μg/day) and the P group (106.88 ± 22.90 μg/day, P<0.001). Lower TPOAb (P=0.043) and greater echogenicity (P<0.001) were also noted in the L group.]

I'm very new to ray peat and his concepts, so I'm not coming from the same background or ideology as other people who have been practicing his concepts. I do not know why peat hardliners would consider a TSH over 2.0 is hypothyroid. There are ranges to TSH levels that are established by the medical community. I also think that people are different and people's bodies work differently. For my lab, a TSH over 4.5 is low. Perhaps a TSH of 2.0 or lower would be better, but like I said everyone's body works differently and perhaps needs different numbers to be optimal. I do see why a lower TSH number is considered better health. When TSH numbers are low, it means you have a sufficient amount of thyroid hormones which is a good thing since it's needed to have a lot of energy in general.

I have tried using red light, and it did increase my thyroid hormones for a week. I obviously didn't do things well due to my lack of experience. I used too much red light and caused other issues with inflammation and seems to have worn out my liver through the process. Then I became more hypothyroid. The first week or 2, I was taking less thyroid hormones. Since my liver is overtaxed from dealing with the red light, it has not been able to convert the T4 to T3 and I have had to take more thyroid hormones due to my liver burning out and not being able to do the conversion. So I've been increasing my thyroid dose to work around this while feeling more lethargic and having more or about the same hypothyroid symptoms before I started. Had I not overdosed on the red light, I think there are still problems due to the uncontrolled nature of the light and inability to really know how much to use and when to stop. For thyroid conditions, the amount of thyroid medications you take needs to be pretty exact and taking too much or too little will give you issues with hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism.

I'm saying red light "cures" hypothyroidism is a stretch. It could help, but there are risks which I was trying to point out. I think you can try whatever you want to fix your hypothyroidism in general. I also think that if there are a lot of risks because it could mess up your body when you start using red light to fix your thyroid when there hasn't been a whole lot of evidence that it can fix your thyroid glands to work properly long-term.

I do think red light can increase your thyroid hormones, but there are other processes that are at work. For thyroid, more is not better, so having more hormones isn't necessarily better than less. Also, ultimately for thyroid you want a controlled amount of hormones to be outputted, and it is very hard to get predictable results with red light and that's why doing this has some substantial risk in general.

I'm coming from this as someone who has hypothyroidism and read that red light can cure hypothyroidism and found out that it is not that simple and really needs to be handled with a lot of precaution due to the other effects of red light that impact the body. Unless red light has been approved by the medical community as a treatment to cure hypothyroidism, I don't think it should be considered as a cure for this. I think sites that say red light helps with hypothyroidism based on 1 or 2 studies need to be careful. They can publish whatever they want, but it's not totally useful information when it doesn't explain how to do it in an effective manner. For people who are dependent on thyroid medication for life due to their thyroid condition, they aren't looking for a temporary fix for a week or two. They are looking for something that has reproducible, predictable results. I don't think shining a red light is a better treatment than taking medications which have predictable, reliable results. Ultimately if you shine a red light, you really don't know how it's going to effect your body and for a medical condition like hypothyroidism that needs routine, daily treatment, it's not really a good way to treat the condition. This is just my opinion.

I do have hypothyroidism where I need medication to have thyroid hormones, and it's a pain. I would do almost anything to have a functioning thyroid, which I don't have. I don't think medications are a great way to live either, so I am definitely open to finding ways to fix my thyroid once and for all. This is why I tried this. It was a good experiment, but I think it could be risky had I had other health issues in conjunction with the thyroid issue. I'm lucky I was able to bounce back after trying this, but it has sent my whole body into a different state where I have had more hypothyroid symptoms than before I started and I was not expecting that. It wasn't totally worthless, but as I said, you really need to know what you are doing and handle the risks when trying this.

I know there are others who have said that it has helped with their hypothyroidism and helped them stop taking medications. I think it is great, but I have not reached that myself at this point. I may get there at some point and I can join the list of people who have been helped by the red light. Also, if the red light has helped people overcome their slight hypothyroid conditions without any harm or negative effects, that is great. I am not taking away from their experiences. I just wanted to say it's not a cure-all, and if it you are helped by it, you did it the right way where it worked for you. I have not reached that yet and realize this whole endeavor is full of risk which isn't good for someone who needs a lot of help with their thyroid condition.

So I do agree with you that it may help someone who is not totally dependent on medication for their thyroid condition, but I would not have firsthand experience in that case. But if red light helped with this, I wonder if going to the gym and working out and getting the body to work harder would not produce the same effects, or if red light was the only way to get the thyroid to start working again.

I appreciate all the information shared here and will use it to help me, so I'm benefiting from the site. I don't mean to use my experience to make people feel bad about the red light, but I think by sharing perhaps someone will know more before trying the same things I did.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

So after over a week of stopping to use the lights on my thyroid gland I can safely say I've lost the majority of the benefits. I feel pretty crappy again.

In my head, riddled with anxiety, asocial, tired, brain fogged and reserved.

Using the light on my head seems to offer some benefits, but even that loses effect once you quit.

It also seems that these lights worked far better at low durations when I used them concurrently with blackseed oil. It is known to increase thyroid hormones. As I've just used the IR 830 at my thyroid gland for 90 seconds and I feel almost nothing 2 hours later, whereas before I had pronounced effects with as low as 50 seconds.

Going by all of this however, I cannot conclude that my thyroid gland is damaged if it responds so well to all these stimulatory treatments. I'm far more inclined to believe that the pituitary and hypothalamus are just not stimulating adequate hormone production from an otherwise healthy gland. I have no idea how to reprogram this, but I am deficient in these hormones and my life sucks without them. When I was on blackseed oil + LLLT I felt like an entirely different person. I was so confident and extroverted like I have not been in years. I'm not sure how to just get this cursed gland to work again, and to tell my brain that it no longer has to run in safe mode. Nothing I've tried works so far. I feel like using these lights on brain areas should be more effective than it is, but it's hard to get a sufficent dose into the brain because the skull absorbs a lot of light.

 

[sirilynn]

Going by all of this however, I cannot conclude that my thyroid gland is damaged if it responds so well to all these stimulatory treatments. I'm far more inclined to believe that the pituitary and hypothalamus are just not stimulating adequate hormone production from an otherwise healthy gland.

That sounds like that's what hypothyroidism is. Thyroid gland does not produce adequate hormones even when stimulated by the pituitary gland hormones (TSH). So your gland isn't healthy if it doesn't respond to the TSH levels by producing more hormones that you need.

Is this reflected in your labs for your thyroid hormones? Do you have high TSH numbers with low T3 and T4 numbers? You mentioned your labs are in the normal range before. So I guess you can have good labs and still feel bad. Do you have multiple low thyroid symptoms? You said brain fog, anxiety, low energy.

There are other factors that are involved that affect how much T3/T4 your body will make, such as capacity to convert T4 to T3 in your adrenals and gut. It's more complicated than just your thyroid gland and thyroid hormones. You are on the right track that you are studying dietary changes you can make that can affect thyroid levels. I did not know about black seed oil. I think I'm on the same path where I want to get my thyroid working again and probably regenerate it using nutrition if possible. Did you see the link I posted earlier about fighting hypothyroidism? Escaping Hashimoto Please continue to share other treatments you are trying with fixing the hypothyroidism. I will be working to see if I can get my thyroid working using the nutritional advice I find, so it would be good to share and hear more ideas from others.

I'm going to be doing everything I can to try to rebuild my thyroid starting with green tea and other recommendations, such as physical exercise. I've been hyperthyroid almost my entire life which means I've had excess thyroid hormones. I had my thyroid killed by nuclear medicine (radiation). I'm sure the hyperthyroidism is still inside of me somewhere and waiting to unleash itself again. I'm still a little hyper in spirit though I have no thyroid that is working anymore. I'm sure my thyroid can come back to life fighting and kicking. Lately I've been applying warm touch to the thyroid using my hands, and it has made a difference. Just heating the thyroid with warmth seems to heal it and I can feel it working harder as I apply gentle touch to the area to bring warmth and healing. Sounds crazy, but I will take any improvements I can get. I imagine if I walked around with a scarf everyday, the thyroid would feel better, but I think it would just make you feel warm overall which isn't really the goal. Like how warm muscles work better than cold muscles, maybe the thyroid is sensitive to temperature. Warmth may make it work harder and easier. It's just a theory. I actually apply Reiki energy to my thyroid and it feels better. Try putting your hands on your thyroid areas for like 20-30 minutes a day, perhaps when driving or when going to sleep and see if the warmth of your hands feels healing to your thyroid and you can feel the energy of the thyroid working harder. I'm not sure if I'm the only one who can create this warmth or it is a universal experience for all people. I did get Reiki training, so I'm actually applying Reiki energy to heal the thyroid, but maybe you can do this without any real Reiki training.

I don't know if it produces more, but it does feel better and starts to come back to life from its deathlike state. I can see in a month if I see any differences in how I feel because with anything you try, it takes time for your body to adjust and adapt to changes.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

That sounds like that's what hypothyroidism is. Thyroid gland does not produce adequate hormones even when stimulated by the pituitary gland hormones (TSH). So your gland isn't healthy if it doesn't respond to the TSH levels by producing more hormones that you need.

The pituitary can secrete biologically inactive TSH which does literally nothing when it reaches the thyroid. I don't think an unhealthy gland would respond so readily to red light and other supplements like blackseed oil. The people in the LLLT studies who had legitimately damaged thyroids took weeks to see hormonal changes whereas I feel them within 2-3 hours. Sadly I have no good method to test this hypothesis - this is why I am trying to stimulate the thyroid through the brain glands to see if I am correct, but this is difficult.

Is this reflected in your labs for your thyroid hormones? Do you have high TSH numbers with low T3 and T4 numbers? You mentioned your labs are in the normal range before. So I guess you can have good labs and still feel bad. Do you have multiple low thyroid symptoms? You said brain fog, anxiety, low energy.

I had TSH as high as 8. My hormones were always within range but about mid-range or lowish mid-range. I never felt much better even when I was on thyroid hormones and they were increased on the lab tests. I get far more results from the lamps to be honest.

There are other factors that are involved that affect how much T3/T4 your body will make, such as capacity to convert T4 to T3 in your adrenals and gut.

I think most of those work fine because things start falling into place like tetris blocks as soon as I stimulate the gland to produce more hormones. It literally seems like that is the biggest problem.

About warmth - sleeping warm is the biggest hack/tool I've found besides flat out using the lights on the thyroid. I'd say it conserves thyroid hormones over night so you have more during the day and it also increases sensitivity to thyroid hormones. I've used that for a long time to help myself. But when I use the lights I need this hack less.

 

[Blossom]

So after over a week of stopping to use the lights on my thyroid gland I can safely say I've lost the majority of the benefits. I feel pretty crappy again.

In my head, riddled with anxiety, asocial, tired, brain fogged and reserved.

Using the light on my head seems to offer some benefits, but even that loses effect once you quit.

It also seems that these lights worked far better at low durations when I used them concurrently with blackseed oil. It is known to increase thyroid hormones. As I've just used the IR 830 at my thyroid gland for 90 seconds and I feel almost nothing 2 hours later, whereas before I had pronounced effects with as low as 50 seconds.

Going by all of this however, I cannot conclude that my thyroid gland is damaged if it responds so well to all these stimulatory treatments. I'm far more inclined to believe that the pituitary and hypothalamus are just not stimulating adequate hormone production from an otherwise healthy gland. I have no idea how to reprogram this, but I am deficient in these hormones and my life sucks without them. When I was on blackseed oil + LLLT I felt like an entirely different person. I was so confident and extroverted like I have not been in years. I'm not sure how to just get this cursed gland to work again, and to tell my brain that it no longer has to run in safe mode. Nothing I've tried works so far. I feel like using these lights on brain areas should be more effective than it is, but it's hard to get a sufficent dose into the brain because the skull absorbs a lot of light.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned and I'm just speculating but I wonder if red light through the nasal passages could reach the pituitary glad better than through the skull? I thought of that because that's the route taken for pituitary surgery. Maybe @Daniel11 might have some thoughts on this type of use for red light? I've seen some red light laser pointers that look like they would work. Perhaps it might be worth researching further.
FWIW here is an article on intranasal light therapy.
Intranasal light therapy device for brain stimulation is released
Here's an example of something currently on the market for intranasal light therapy. I've never used this product and have no affiliation with the company selling it- I just thought it looked interesting!
Vielight Intranasal Light Therapy Device - 633 Red, 655 Prime or 810 Infrared
There's some talk about red laser pointers in this post but it's old so the links no longer seem to work.

The ebay laser you listed looks very much like the ones I bought. Btw, lazerpoint.com works for me, and here is the page with all red lasers:
http://www.lazerpoint.com/sc-650nm-red-lasers

I got 10 of the 20mW ones and used a rubber band to bundle them together. When they are all bundled and set to the widest focal point the bundle forms a large red circle about 4in. in diameter. I point that to any area I want and do the 30sec exposure as described. Each laser takes two AAA batteries and they are supposed to last for 168 hours when continuously on. This gives enough power to have 30sec exposures for quite some time.

I hope you're able to get this sorted out @MyUsernameHere!

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I hope you're able to get this sorted out @MyUsernameHere!

I dunno. I've been trying for years. So few things work and even if they do it's only temporary. Red light + nigella sativa oil had me feeling the best in years but the NSO lowers VEGF and as someone prone to baldness this absolutely murders my hair.

I'm really just trying to figure out if the gland is fried or not. If so, then I can just throw my hands up in the air until stem cell grown organs come, and cope to the best of my ability with temporary therapies.

However, I don' think it's the case. Given how well the gland responds to light and blackseed oil, it can't be all that damaged. Why doesn't the pituitary just put out more TSH to stimulate it further? It jist seems to me that the master glands (pituitary, hypothalamus) insist on a thyroid setpoint that is way too low for optimal health and refuse to change. That would explain it always reverting to normal and fighting against thyroid supplements.

This is probably an adaptation to my history of fasting and low calorie dieting which caused literally every single health problem I have right now. Unfortunately even after six years of trying I have made only so little progress. Diet supplements the whole 9 yards it might as well not even exist, they don't help. I've named the only two things that work and even those are just temporary, no long term healing seems to be taking place. At this point I'm just a desperate guy scouring the internet for anything that sounds hopeful, but all the information is so archaic and demotivating, with little hope in sight for someone like me.