Red Light Therapy, Lights, Supplemental Lighting

[Amazoniac]

@RedLightMan
Guru, I don't know if this is an area of your interest, but what probably disrupts the circadian rhythms more: a soft concentrated on the blue spectrum light, or one that is more intense on that same blue but even more on the whole spectrum of visible light? In other words, the intensity of the blue spectrum is probably problematic, but can the overall proportion mitigate those effects to some degree?

Unrelated, but check this (basically unstable pigments that are incorporated into membranes of bacteria that make them vulnerable to excitation):
Antimicrobial Photodynamic Therapy to Kill Gram-negative Bacteria
Any opinion on it?

 

[Dan W]

I've wondered about the tradeoffs with intensity versus spectrum too, especially given my habit of using intense incandescent light until just before bed. At least on the melatonin front, this study suggests to me that you can't "cancel out" the effects with other parts of the spectrum:

(the control case used no light at all)

 

[Amazoniac]

I've wondered about the tradeoffs with intensity versus spectrum too, especially given my habit of using intense incandescent light until just before bed. At least on the melatonin front, this study suggests to me that you can't "cancel out" the effects with other parts of the spectrum:

(the control case used no light at all)

Hey, Dan!
That's interesting. It's counter-intuitive if the proportion doesn't mitigate at least to some degree the effects of blue light at night.

--
Now, unrelated, Ray mentioned:
"To avoid the aging and immuno-suppressive side effects of sunlight, it seems best for sunlight to come through a window glass which removes most of the ultraviolet light, and some of the blue light. Plastic film is available which contains copper that removes this harmful part of sunlight, and can be applied to ordinary window glass. Sitting in sunlight coming through a window of this sort, for short times during the day, is very protective. Besides protecting against cancer, it helps to keep the mood and energy level high, by keeping melatonin low and stimulating metabolism."

The role of glass as a barrier against the transmission of ultraviolet radiation: an experimental study. - PubMed - NCBI
However, it seems that the ability to block most of the UV rays depends on the type of glass, intensity, and other factors as well; UVb is commonly retained, UVa depending on the glass, is easier to pass. The closer to the red range, the deeper it penetrates into our bodies*. That raises a concern that it might not be wise to expose yourself for prolongued times with only a normal glass shielding the body. As far as I know, UVb is the responsible for the burning/discomfortable sensation that make us move away from excessive (skin) damage.
Just to note that Ray also mentioned that sunlight does indeed damage the skin but the internal protection seems to worth that price.

From the study:
"Laminated glass: This is produced by associating two laminae of glass with a layer of plastic (PVB – polyvinyl butyral), under heat and pressure. Once the glass-and-plastic composite has been cast, the result is a single lamina that is generally very similar to clear ordinary glass. The benefit of laminated glass is that, if it breaks, the fragments continue to adhere to the PVB layer, instead of becoming scattered, thereby reducing the risk of accidents. PVB filters approximately 99% of UV radiation without diminishing the transmission of visible light (9)**."

"Variation in the thickness of the glass has limited influence with regard to blocking UV radiation, according to studies (9). Tinted glass contains special colored components that absorb up to 50% of the incident solar energy, thereby reducing the undesired heat gain and transmitting less UV and visible light, in comparison with ordinary glass (9)."

"A study on the penetration of UV radiation through car window glass demonstrated that this transmission depended on whether the glass was tinted or not. The results demonstrated that the colored sample completely removed the UVB spectrum and only allowed a small proportion of UVA to pass (10)."

"For safety reasons, all [vehicle] windscreens are made of laminated glass, which is able to filter out practically all of the UVA. However, the glass for the side and rear windows is normally tempered and therefore some of the radiation is able to pass through***."

"With regard to the color of imprinted ordinary glass (Table 3), it was found that green glass totally blocked the UVA radiation, independent of the distance from the source."

"The transmission of radiation decreased with increasing thickness of the glass, but not significantly, thus demonstrating that this variable has little influence on blocking the radiation, in comparison with the other variables analyzed."

"On the other hand, the color of the glass had a huge influence on the transmission of radiation. The sample of green glass totally blocked the radiation and yellow glass only allowed the passage of 1.3%, which may have occurred because of the properties of the tinting pigments present. In glass manufacturing, colored additives can be used, such as Fe31, which confers a brownish yellow color, or a mixture of Fe31 and Fe21, which provides a green color. The Fe21 ion absorbs light in the infrared region, while Fe31 absorbs light in the UV region. Thus, samples containing Fe31 in the tinting pigment are more efficient in diminishing the transmission of UVA (14)."

"Furthermore, the distance of the glass from the emission source significantly influenced the quantity of baseline radiation, such that the greater the distance, the lower the irradiation and therefore the lower the transmission of UV through the glass. This may be explained by the huge dissipation of energy that occurs at greater distances under environmental conditions."

"Even in the case of UVA radiation, the transmission would be insufficient to produce actinic damage, given that not only does the glass block a large proportion of the radiation but also small changes in the distance from the emission source significantly decrease the irradiation."

**(9) Photoprotection by window glass, automobile glass, and sunglasses. - PubMed - NCBI

Glass coloring and color marking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*

***

 

[RedLightMan]

@RedLightMan
Guru, I don't know if this is an area of your interest, but what probably disrupts the circadian rhythms more: a soft concentrated on the blue spectrum light, or one that is more intense on that same blue but even more on the whole spectrum of visible light? In other words, the intensity of the blue spectrum is probably problematic, but can the overall proportion mitigate those effects to some degree?

Unrelated, but check this (basically unstable pigments that are incorporated into membranes of bacteria that make them vulnerable to excitation):
Antimicrobial Photodynamic Therapy to Kill Gram-negative Bacteria
Any opinion on it?

Hi @Amazoniac

I think this specific blue/full spectrum question still needs more research to conclusively answer. Right now I'd lean towards an intense whole spectrum of visible light being worse for circadian rhythms than isolated dim blue light. Although both are bad.

So basically it's just the sheer quantity of blue-wavelength photons that are problematic at night, regardless of which other wavelengths you have at the same time.

Red light has a very limited ability to affect circadian rhythms, but I don't think it (or any other colour) can work like an 'antidote' to the blue in regards to circadian rhythms (perhaps it can in regards to mitochondrial damage). You just need to avoid blue/white as much as possible at night.

Having said all of that though, I think there are benefits to full spectrum visible light (sunlight) during the day. I think it's fine to do red light therapy at night too, although infrared light is perhaps marginally better at that time.


Regarding the photodynamic therapy, it's an interesting field with implications for a lot of infections, cancers and even hygiene. I'm still trying to figure out a way to incorporate it into daily life. The synergy between red/infrared light therapy and supplementing methylene blue for example is definitely worth trying, although I wouldn't call it photodynamic therapy, if taken orally in low doses. You can get some of the bactericidal effects from just red/ir light alone, especially at higher doses.

 

[Amazoniac]

Hi @Amazoniac

I think this specific blue/full spectrum question still needs more research to conclusively answer. Right now I'd lean towards an intense whole spectrum of visible light being worse for circadian rhythms than isolated dim blue light. Although both are bad.

So basically it's just the sheer quantity of blue-wavelength photons that are problematic at night, regardless of which other wavelengths you have at the same time.

Red light has a very limited ability to affect circadian rhythms, but I don't think it (or any other colour) can work like an 'antidote' to the blue in regards to circadian rhythms (perhaps it can in regards to mitochondrial damage). You just need to avoid blue/white as much as possible at night.

Having said all of that though, I think there are benefits to full spectrum visible light (sunlight) during the day. I think it's fine to do red light therapy at night too, although infrared light is perhaps marginally better at that time.


Regarding the photodynamic therapy, it's an interesting field with implications for a lot of infections, cancers and even hygiene. I'm still trying to figure out a way to incorporate it into daily life. The synergy between red/infrared light therapy and supplementing methylene blue for example is definitely worth trying, although I wouldn't call it photodynamic therapy, if taken orally in low doses. You can get some of the bactericidal effects from just red/ir light alone, especially at higher doses.

Thank you for your reply.
Considering that some people these days use blue light blocking glasses, but few don't expose themselves to any blue light after removing the amber glasses; they have a sudden exposure to a bit of blue.
I'm curious about your opinion on this as well; what's probably more detrimental at night for circadian rhythms, a sudden exposure to a low intensity blue light, or a gradual decrease (let's say from dawn) in that same blue, dimming until it reaches the same intensity as the other case?

 

[RedLightMan]

Thank you for your reply.
Considering that some people these days use blue light blocking glasses, but few don't expose themselves to any blue light after removing the amber glasses; they have a sudden exposure to a bit of blue.
I'm curious about your opinion on this as well; what's probably more detrimental at night for circadian rhythms, a sudden exposure to a low intensity blue light, or a gradual decrease (let's say from dawn) in that same blue, dimming until it reaches the same intensity as the other case?

I don't think you need to worry about the odd sudden exposure to dim blue light at night. Turning on the bathroom light while you brush your teeth for example isn't going to keep you up all night.
It's just this sort of thing for 2+ hours right before bed that is harmful:

In your question, I would say that the gradual decrease is probably worse, as you would have more cumulative blue light exposure at post-dusk hours.
In the natural day-night cycle of the sun, you get low levels of blue during twilight (before sunrise & after sunset), which switches to higher proportions of red during sunrise/sunset, and a gradual increase in blue from sunrise to midday, then a gradual decrease until sunset. So it's basically like:
Dawn - low blue -> red -> high blue -> red -> low blue - Dusk.
So a gradual decrease in blue all the way from dawn isn't natural anyway. Best to avoid lengthy exposure to blue/white after dusk.

 

[Amazoniac]

Regarding the photodynamic therapy, it's an interesting field with implications for a lot of infections, cancers and even hygiene. I'm still trying to figure out a way to incorporate it into daily life. The synergy between red/infrared light therapy and supplementing methylene blue for example is definitely worth trying, although I wouldn't call it photodynamic therapy, if taken orally in low doses. You can get some of the bactericidal effects from just red/ir light alone, especially at higher doses.

Interesting post: Red Light Therapy Treats Yeast Infections - Red Light Man
It would be interesting if they compared the effects with and without pigments (that previous link: Antimicrobial Photodynamic Therapy to Kill Gram-negative Bacteria)

 

[gilbert90]

Would something like this work?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beurer-Inf...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=N91QPYT3G2J5E63B00PQ

 

[Amazoniac]

Principles Of Human Physiology (1920)

 

[Dan W]

Just wanted to warn my incandescent / heat-lamp pals about bulbsplosions. I was eating an orange, and a spritz of juice hit one of the bulbs, causing it to explode and shoot hot glass everywhere. I was lucky to only get a small burn.

I'm going to make a safety shield out of fiberglass window screen material, unless someone has a better suggestion. I'm using 200w bulbs in a 300w enclosure, and will still leave plenty of it unshielded, so I don't think heat dissipation will be an issue.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thanks Dan for the caution. Glad you are all right. I have to think on his. I'm using two 500 watt bulbs near my laptop. Could be dangerous.

 

[sladerunner69]

Just wanted to warn my incandescent / heat-lamp pals about bulbsplosions. I was eating an orange, and a spritz of juice hit one of the bulbs, causing it to explode and shoot hot glass everywhere. I was lucky to only get a small burn.

I'm going to make a safety shield out of fiberglass window screen material, unless someone has a better suggestion. I'm using 200w bulbs in a 300w enclosure, and will still leave plenty of it unshielded, so I don't think heat dissipation will be an issue.

Are you using the work light style lamps? Or the bulb style lamps?

 

[Dan W]

I've got regular bulbs in brooder fixtures. I've added the fiberglass window-screen shield, but I'm unsure of its safety since it's getting overheated above the bulb (you can see the scorch mark):

The metal triangle is just aluminum foil to reduce the amount of light that shines directly into my eyes.

 

[Soren]

Can anyone point me to any studies with regards to Red light therapy lowering serotonin levels in the body. I am sure they exist I just can't seem to find them.

 

[Sucrates]

Can anyone point me to any studies with regards to Red light therapy lowering serotonin levels in the body. I am sure they exist I just can't seem to find them.

There are studies showing LLLT lowering inflammatory cytokines induced by endotoxin which I would expect to lead to lower serotonin in that context. There's also the effect of light on proteins like TLR4 altering serotonin 'receptors', changing the serotonergic state or effect regardless of serotonin levels. In Rays article on ionising radiation 'Radiation and growth' he mentions that serotonin is thought to be involved in the bystander effect. The effects on thyroid function would alter estrogen/progesterone, in turn likely increasing MAOA (serotonin degradation) and decreasing TPH (synthesis).

 

[Dave Clark]

Can anyone comment on the intra-nasal red light called a Vielight? I don't have all the facts in front of me, however, it is suppose to penetrate through the barrier behind the nasal passages and enter the brain where it can have it's effect on the pituitary gland, etc.

 

[Soren]

Can anyone comment on the intra-nasal red light called a Vielight? I don't have all the facts in front of me, however, it is suppose to penetrate through the barrier behind the nasal passages and enter the brain where it can have it's effect on the pituitary gland, etc.

It is quite an expensive product for the number of leds and power that it provides. I have a family member who has one and uses it for Parkinson's disease. It is purpose built for its task quite well but if one were a bit inventive they could get the same benefits for a fraction of the cost in my opinion.

 

[PhilParma]

If anyone in the US is interested in buying my RLM Combo Mini, please PM me.

 

[Dan W]

I'm going to make a safety shield out of fiberglass window screen material, unless someone has a better suggestion. I'm using 200w bulbs in a 300w enclosure, and will still leave plenty of it unshielded, so I don't think heat dissipation will be an issue.

Adam Capriola found a better solution to this that I'd suggest for people using high wattage lights near their face, or around children/pets. I'm not sure if they're a new things, but there's bulbs with a silicone coating that resists shattering. Here's some good candidates I've found so far:

PLT brand
150 watt incandescent, 130 volt, model 150PS25/130V/TC or TC-0150PS25, ~$9
200 watt incandescent, 130 volt, model 200PS25/CL/TC or TC-0200PS25, ~$7 (weird that it's cheaper)

Satco brand
250 watt heat lamp style: 120 volt, model SATCO-S4884 or SATCO-S4885, ~$9

TheraBulb brand
Any of their heat/NIR lamps except for the 240 volt ones, ~$21


I'd be curious if anyone knows how silicone might affect the spectrum. I'm guessing it only effects a narrow part of it, if at all.

 

[Kibs]

For you guys that use a Redlightman mini, I’m trying to find something I could use as a stand or something to clamp on to a desk so I can be hands free while using. Not having much luck, can anyone point me in the right way or what it would be called, like something that will hold/clamp the lamp but then clamp to the desk?