Red Light Dosing-- Biphasic Dose Response

Discussion in 'Red Light, Infrared, LLLT' started by Jobed, Jan 28, 2014.

  1. Jobed

    Jobed Member

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    I am interested in the proper dosing of red light therapy. I don't think this issue has really been settled definitively, so I hope someone has some good answers/logic on what might be the best dose (dosing schedule) of red light.

    If you don't understand why I'm I'm asking this question, well, here's why:
    Biphasic dose response in low level light therapy. (2009) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790317/

    "A biphasic dose response has been frequently observed where low levels of light have a much better effect on stimulating and repairing tissues than higher levels of light. The so-called Arndt-Schulz curve is frequently used to describe this biphasic dose response. " ... "LLLT delivered at low doses tends to work better than the same wavelength delivered at high levels, which illustrates the basic concept of bipha-sic dose response or hormesis (Calabrese 2001b). In general, fluences of red or NIR as low as 3 or 5 J/cm2 will be beneficial in vivo, but a large dose like 50 or 100 J/cm2 will lose the beneficial effect and may even become detrimental."

    This was touched on here: http://peatarian.com/31768/red-light-an ... de-release
    "Very interesting. So basically, everything under 30 minutes is beneficial for you and once you do it too long it makes things worse?

    commented Nov 22, 2013 by Bukowski
    Yes, at least there are no negative effects when limiting to 30min. At about 10 minutes my pulse begins to accelerate which means the good effects start to kick in. I might even go lower in the future with a maximum of 20mins. Peat also mentioned that shorter exposures with stronger light are better than longer ones with weak light. Dont know if that has something to do with the NO issue."

    But I think that's far from definitive.

    Anyone have any thoughts on dosing for red light?
     
  2. jyb

    jyb Member

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    I first heard about that in http://heelspurs.com/led.html, in the context of healing a specific area. I assumed this doesn't apply for when you just use high W to lighten up the room, where you don't aim to get as much J/cm2, just sufficient light to reduce stress hormones.
     
  3. j.

    j. Guest

    haidut mentioned that some Russian scientist hold him by e-mail 3000W of 130v incadescent lights used with a 120v plug is ideal. He mentioned they used it to recover from anesthesia.
     
  4. paper_clips43

    paper_clips43 Member

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    Where can we buy a 3000w red light bulb?
     
  5. OP
    Jobed

    Jobed Member

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    So, to clarify... this is about the fact that red light applied to a particular area for a long time is not as beneficial as a shorter time.

    That's what this biphasic dose response means... low/moderate doses of red light are better than high doses.

    So I'm wondering if anyone has info on the right schedule (i.e. how many minutes on, to how many minutes off).

    JYB, yeah, it's true that it may be different when you're talking about indirect light lighting up a room rather than intense light applied to a particular area of the body. Interesting thought.
     
  6. bradley

    bradley Member

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    There's great info and resources in this massive, 60-page thread, but it takes some digging. Scott Roberts/Zawy/Heelspurs guy chimes in a lot. The consensus evolves over time. There are so many variables at play, i.e. light output, wavelength(s), treatment area, time.
     
  7. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    I dose myself with light until my body heats up then I stop. If you get too hot it can be stressful to the body. I then recharge later when needed.
     
  8. Blossom

    Blossom Moderator

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    This is my personal experience that confirms Charlie's post. I've been using 2 250 watt infared heat lamp bulbs also known as brooding lights which I started with in mid November. In the beginning I couldn't get enough of them and used them every chance I got. Lately I begin sweating and can only use them for short periods of time. I believe this is due to my improved health. I will probably try to come up with some incadescent to solve the heat issue so I can tolerate using them longer if desired. I really think they have done a lot to help me tolerate the winter along with all the other lifestyle and diet changes.
     
  9. cyclops

    cyclops Member

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    So how much time (in minutes) are you guys averaging? Anyone have the red-infrared combo light from red light man? Wondering how long in would be good to use that for?
     
  10. marikay

    marikay Guest

    Hi.

    I use three 250watt, 130 volt (screwed into a 120v socket) clear incandescent bulbs during the winter months. Like @Blossom I have found I need less and less time as my health has gotten better and better. I probably use the lamps for 5 to 15 minutes in the fall (like now till early December) and then go up to 20 or even thirty minutes (morning or evening) during the shortest days. Then I’ll go down to 5 to 15 minutes again as the days get longer. I stop the lights completely in early March.

    I also use one bulb from time to time if I feel stiff in one of my fingers or somewhere else. It feels better almost immediately.

    I do notice I need more calories when I use the lights for more than 5 minutes at a time.

    It took a while to get the doseage and time right. But this does work. Don’t know about infrared or LED. I got the bulbs online, pretty cheap.
     
  11. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Cyclops, you have to understand that it is not about "minutes". It is about "dose". A dose is this :

    power density (mW/cm2) * time (seconds) * 0.001 = dose (J/cm2)

    The power density you get it from the light manufacturer. In this case I copy&paste from the RLM website :

    • Consumption: 60w
    • Up to 1000 mW/cm² density
    • 200 mW/cm² @15cm
    • 20 mW/cm² @45cm

    So for a red-infrared combo light (the big, not the mini) at 0 cm for 1 minute it would be :

    1000 * 60 * 0.001 = 60 J/cm2 (this is quite a big dose)

    If you put it further away from you, let's say 15 cm, then it's like this :

    200 * 60 * 0.001 = 12 J/cm2 (that's a more reasonable dose)

    This is how you have to measure it. I hope you get it.

    Then there's no fixed "biphasic" curve in the literature. It is all about the individual differences, the different organs/tissues and/or problem to treat. Normally in the literature the doses are quite low.

    I would start by 12 J/cm2 for instance. Not more. But this is for a single point. If you use 12 J/cm2 in your knees for arthritis you can still use it in other areas. I guess at some point you will reach systemic effect but only if you use a whole body device.

    I'm not an expert anyway.
     
  12. Sucrates

    Sucrates Member

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    Also:
    Often the irradiance(power density) itself is an independent factor in outcome.
    That is to say that: 12J (or 12J/cm2) from a 100mW (or mW/cm2) source (120 seconds)
    may not be the same as 12J (or 12J/cm2) from a 150mW (or mW/cm2) source (80 seconds)

    It seems that almost every variable can be shown to affect outcome. Intensity is pretty close to top of the list, along with J.
     
  13. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    True, I forgot to mention that.

    PS. By intensity you mean power density, right ?
     
  14. cyclops

    cyclops Member

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    Thanks for this info!
     
  15. Sucrates

    Sucrates Member

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    Yes, more or less. I should have said irradiance or called power density. Edited post for clarity, thanks.
     
  16. TheDrumGuy

    TheDrumGuy Member

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    Those of you who use ordinary bulbs (ie non-LEDs), how far do you sit from the lamp? And where do you aim it, at your face, back, stomach?
     
  17. x-ray peat

    x-ray peat Member

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    Here is an update to the original study in OP
    Biphasic Dose Response in Low Level Light Therapy – An Update
    Abstract
    Low-level laser (light) therapy (LLLT) has been known since 1967 but still remains controversial due to incomplete understanding of the basic mechanisms and the selection of inappropriate dosimetric parameters that led to negative studies. The biphasic dose-response or Arndt-Schulz curve in LLLT has been shown both in vitro studies and in animal experiments. This review will provide an update to our previous (Huang et al. 2009) coverage of this topic. In vitro mediators of LLLT such as adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and mitochondrial membrane potential show biphasic patterns, while others such as mitochondrial reactive oxygen species show a triphasic dose-response with two distinct peaks. The Janus nature of reactive oxygen species (ROS) that may act as a beneficial signaling molecule at low concentrations and a harmful cytotoxic agent at high concentrations, may partly explain the observed responses in vivo. Transcranial LLLT for traumatic brain injury (TBI) in mice shows a distinct biphasic pattern with peaks in beneficial neurological effects observed when the number of treatments is varied, and when the energy density of an individual treatment is varied. Further understanding of the extent to which biphasic dose responses apply in LLLT will be necessary to optimize clinical treatments.

    To me it seems that too much red light is not only inefective but also harmful due to the ROS, so careful where you put that
     
  18. Daniel11

    Daniel11 Member

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    “As the light travels into the tissue, its intensity decreases due to absorption and scattering. Penetration of light into tissues depends not only on the wavelength but also on the optical properties of the target tissue.”

    “Adverse behavioral effects can be induced with massive energy densities 100 times higher than those observed to induce beneficial effects, but even the adverse effects of high doses can be attenuated if the total energy is delivered using intermittent energy pulses.”

    “Additionally, LLLT to the forehead and scalp with an LED cluster at 633 nm and 870 nm has been reported to improve and maintain attention, executive function, and memory in two patients with chronic traumatic brain injury.97 LLLT with a power density of 22.2 mW/cm2 was applied for 10 minutes per placement weekly for 2 months or daily for 4 months prior to testing of the cognitive effects, and these patients have continued daily treatment at home for up to 5.5 years. Remarkably, no side effects have been reported so far with the use of LLLT in humans.”

    Low-level light therapy of the eye and brain
     
  19. encerent

    encerent Member

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    In this video, , Danny quotes Ray saying you can use the incandescent bulbs for as long as you want.
     
  20. MyUsernameHere

    MyUsernameHere Member

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    I had no idea about dosing recommendations, but just based on how I felt, I concluded that 30 mins is optimal and that's the longest I've been doing.
     
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