Red And Infrared Light's Benefit Is Not Through Cytochrome C

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Hans

Hans

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Hey Hans, speaking of ROS, wanted your opinion. We see sometimes read the benefits of it such as saturated fat+sugar in controlling blood sugar. When and how can we conclude ROS is beneficial or harmful?
Quite a few enzymes and pathways can produce ROS, for example, MAO, xanthine oxidase, NOX, ETC, etc., although the ETC is by far the largest contributor. ROS serves a purpose in that it signals mitochondrial biogenesis, fission, autophagy, etc. Buring fructose and saturated fat can create more ROS than burning other fuels which can be beneficial by inducing UCP, signaling mitochondrial biogenesis and killing cancer cells and so on.
However, the risk comes in when, for example, one or more of the complexes in the ETC doesn't work optimally anymore. Then a lot more ROS is created, and in the presence of low anti-oxidants enzymes and substrates, such as SOD, CAT, glutathione, vitamin E, C, etc., then there will be an excess of ROS and oxidative stress. Too much ROS inhibits fusion and promotes fission and this leads to an overwhelmed autophagy and an accumulation of smaller less efficient and even toxic mitochondria.
So my approach would be to make sure my ETC is working optimally and my anti-oxidant enzymes are optimized at all times by eating a nutritious diet which provides all my vitamins and minerals as well as minimizing stress, toxins, EMF, pollution, heavy metals, pharma drugs, low quality water, etc.
 
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jb116

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Quite a few enzymes and pathways can produce ROS, for example, MAO, xanthine oxidase, NOX, ETC, etc., although the ETC is by far the largest contributor. ROS serves a purpose in that it signals mitochondrial biogenesis, fission, autophagy, etc. Buring fructose and saturated fat can create more ROS than burning other fuels which can be beneficial by inducing UCP, signaling mitochondrial biogenesis and killing cancer cells and so on.
However, the risk comes in when, for example, one or more of the complexes in the ETC doesn't work optimally anymore. Then a lot more ROS is created, and in the presence of low anti-oxidants enzymes and substrates, such as SOD, CAT, glutathione, vitamin E, C, etc., then there will be an excess of ROS and oxidative stress. Too much ROS inhibits fusion and promotes fission and this leads to an overwhelmed autophagy and an accumulation of smaller less efficient and even toxic mitochondria.
So my approach would be to make sure my ETC is working optimally and my anti-oxidant enzymes are optimized at all times by eating a nutritious diet which provides all my vitamins and minerals as well as minimizing stress, toxins, EMF, pollution, heavy metals, pharma drugs, low quality water, etc.
Finally, now I see it :) In other words ROS production itself is not necessarily the issue when it can be handled and sorted to exert benefit and then basically turned off by substances you mentioned. So ROS induced by faulty ETC is of course hazardous but something like the SFA and sugar as mentioned is beneficial because there is no fault in controlling it. I can just imagine then, in examining PUFA laden organisms in experiments (with standard pufa chow for example) and observing harmful effects of ROS was most probably due to the inhibition and/or damage to ETC and then consistently blamed on ROS itself. Thanks Hans, I couldn't get a good and simple explanation from anybody on this matter. :thumbsup:
 
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Hans

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Finally, now I see it :) In other words ROS production itself is not necessarily the issue when it can be handled and sorted to exert benefit and then basically turned off by substances you mentioned. So ROS induced by faulty ETC is of course hazardous but something like the SFA and sugar as mentioned is beneficial because there is no fault in controlling it. I can just imagine then, in examining PUFA laden organisms in experiments (with standard pufa chow for example) and observing harmful effects of ROS was most probably due to the inhibition and/or damage to ETC and then consistently blamed on ROS itself. Thanks Hans, I couldn't get a good and simple explanation from anybody on this matter. :thumbsup:
As a side note, sugar and saturated fat oxidation can be an issue if the activity of the anti-oxidant enzymes are reduced and general anti-oxidant intake is low.
 
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jb116

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As a side note, sugar and saturated fat oxidation can be an issue if the activity of the anti-oxidant enzymes are reduced and general anti-oxidant intake is low.
Understood, and makes sense. I'm seeing the good SFA and sugar as fuels while the antioxidant system as controllers or catalysts for essential functions. How do you feel on Peats stance against taking antioxidant supplements? I happen to agree with him just curious what you think in light of this. I think some would think it helps that system but I think it's too simplistic.
 
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Hans

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Understood, and makes sense. I'm seeing the good SFA and sugar as fuels while the antioxidant system as controllers or catalysts for essential functions. How do you feel on Peats stance against taking antioxidant supplements? I happen to agree with him just curious what you think in light of this. I think some would think it helps that system but I think it's too simplistic.
Yes I'm definitely not big on anti-oxidant supplements. If someone has elevated CRP for example they might benefit from vitamin E and C while fixing the root cause, but when things are doing ok in the body, then I don't see that much of a need for it. Many anti-oxidants, such as vitamin C and E, don't just lower free radicals, and they're definitely beneficial.
 
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Yes I'm definitely not big on anti-oxidant supplements. If someone has elevated CRP for example they might benefit from vitamin E and C while fixing the root cause, but when things are doing ok in the body, then I don't see that much of a need for it. Many anti-oxidants, such as vitamin C and E, don't just lower free radicals, and they're definitely beneficial.
For sure, I think the distinction for E especially, as a supplement, is warranted. I find the dietary history of most of us here and most people in general is skewed in the direction where exogenous E is bringing us up to par. The rest I think are best from fruits and some vegetables.
 
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Hey Hans, speaking of ROS, wanted your opinion. We see sometimes read the benefits of it such as saturated fat+sugar in controlling blood sugar. When and how can we conclude ROS is beneficial or harmful?

My current understanding is that ROS is something managed by the body. Introducing oxidants or antioxidants will result in a compensatory effect by the body; the body will adjust over a period of time to a constant influx of the same product. This may put an unnecessary tax on the body.

I think similar things happen with other substances like aspirin. Side effects go away after a week of use after the body adapts to the presence of this new substance.

I don't think it's possible to conclude ROS is beneficial or harmful. Cancers can use antioxidants to protect themselves from the oxidants that your immune system produces. There's a paper that discusses "antioxidant stress" (as opposed oxidant stress). Recently, I can't remember where, I heard that ROS generation was used in an anti-bacterial fashion.

Like with many other things, it is not simply the presence of the substance that matters, but how it is used in the physiological context. This is where the materialist-reductionist interpretation of physiology starts to break down. A complete picture requires purposefulness and directionality, not randomness and inert matter.
 

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