Red And Infrared Light's Benefit Is Not Through Cytochrome C

Hans

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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here it is.
I listened to a podcast a while ago about red light hosted by Ari Whitten. The guy he was interviewing mentioned that the benefit of red and infrared light is not by displacing nitric oxide, H2S and/or carbon monoxide from cytochrome c oxidase thus increasing its activity, but it was rather through another mechanism.

This study goes into detail and explains that it's actually the effect the light has on the water in the body that is so beneficial.

Mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase is not the primary acceptor for near infrared light—it is mitochondrial bound water: the principles of low-level light therapy - Sommer - Annals of Translational Medicine
Recently, the Cooper laboratory presented the absorption spectra for CCO covering the complete range 400–950 nm (17). Using the spectra for interpretation of the data presented in ref. (23)—in vitro study exploring the effect of 415, 540, 660 and 810 nm light on human adipose derived stem cells and the relationship that the absorbance is equal to the negative logarithm of the transmittance, a quick calculation shows that the transmittance of oxidized CCO for 660 and 810 nm photons is 91.7% (8.7% absorbed) and 83.8% (16.2% absorbed), respectively, but for 415 and 540 nm it is 18.0% (82.0% absorbed) and 73.3% (26.7% absorbed), respectively. The wavelengths 415 and 540 nm correlate positively with the absorption spectrum of oxidized CCO shown in ref. (17) and were found to suppress ATP synthesis and produce a strong ROS signal (23). To put it in another way, the absorbance of CCO for blue 415 nm (0.744) and green 540 nm (0.106) is around 20 and 3 times higher than that for 670 nm (0.032) respectively, where the values were extracted from ref. (17). Another CCO absorption spectrum with peaks centered at 418–420 and 598–600 nm and minimal absorption for R-NIR is presented by Malatesta et al. (25). As I recently pointed out (26) the probability that the interaction of R-NIR photons with oxidatively stressed cells occurs via the CCO route is not realistic: the absorption in the R-NIR region of the CCO spectrum is too small for being the root cause for the ATP upregulation.

Key takeaway. Red and infrared light reduces ROS, stimulates ATPase, reduces water viscosity and stabilizes cell membranes (reduces leakiness).
A stressed cell creates more ROS which increases the water loving capacity of the cell. This makes the cell swell and create more ROS and less ATP in a feed forward loop. Peat mentioned that this is what estrogen does to a cell as well.
 

Beastmode

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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here it is.
I listened to a podcast a while ago about red light hosted by Ari Whitten. The guy he was interviewing mentioned that the benefit of red and infrared light is not by displacing nitric oxide, H2S and/or carbon monoxide from cytochrome c oxidase thus increasing its activity, but it was rather through another mechanism.

This study goes into detail and explains that it's actually the effect the light has on the water in the body that is so beneficial.

Mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase is not the primary acceptor for near infrared light—it is mitochondrial bound water: the principles of low-level light therapy - Sommer - Annals of Translational Medicine
Recently, the Cooper laboratory presented the absorption spectra for CCO covering the complete range 400–950 nm (17). Using the spectra for interpretation of the data presented in ref. (23)—in vitro study exploring the effect of 415, 540, 660 and 810 nm light on human adipose derived stem cells and the relationship that the absorbance is equal to the negative logarithm of the transmittance, a quick calculation shows that the transmittance of oxidized CCO for 660 and 810 nm photons is 91.7% (8.7% absorbed) and 83.8% (16.2% absorbed), respectively, but for 415 and 540 nm it is 18.0% (82.0% absorbed) and 73.3% (26.7% absorbed), respectively. The wavelengths 415 and 540 nm correlate positively with the absorption spectrum of oxidized CCO shown in ref. (17) and were found to suppress ATP synthesis and produce a strong ROS signal (23). To put it in another way, the absorbance of CCO for blue 415 nm (0.744) and green 540 nm (0.106) is around 20 and 3 times higher than that for 670 nm (0.032) respectively, where the values were extracted from ref. (17). Another CCO absorption spectrum with peaks centered at 418–420 and 598–600 nm and minimal absorption for R-NIR is presented by Malatesta et al. (25). As I recently pointed out (26) the probability that the interaction of R-NIR photons with oxidatively stressed cells occurs via the CCO route is not realistic: the absorption in the R-NIR region of the CCO spectrum is too small for being the root cause for the ATP upregulation.

Key takeaway. Red and infrared light reduces ROS, stimulates ATPase, reduces water viscosity and stabilizes cell membranes (reduces leakiness).
A stressed cell creates more ROS which increases the water loving capacity of the cell. This makes the cell swell and create more ROS and less ATP in a feed forward loop. Peat mentioned that this is what estrogen does to a cell as well.

How might this change, if it does, usage of a red light as an adjunct to therapy?

We currently use a reptilian light daily.
 
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Hans

Hans

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How might this change, if it does, usage of a red light as an adjunct to therapy?

We currently use a reptilian light daily.
It doesn't change anything luckily lol. According to the paper, 660nm and 810nm wavelength are the best for boosting ATP, lowering ROS and structuring the cell. It also states that pulsed light is superior to continuous light.
I don't know the wavelength of the reptilian light though.
 

Beastmode

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It doesn't change anything luckily lol. According to the paper, 660nm and 810nm wavelength are the best for boosting ATP, lowering ROS and structuring the cell. It also states that pulsed light is superior to continuous light.
I don't know the wavelength of the reptilian light though.

Good thing :)

I just started using this one: Philips Heat Lamp R40 Flood Light Bulb: 250-Watt, Medium Screw Base

Now that I look for it, I don't know the wavelength of this one. I do know that I can only handle it for 5-10 min b/c it's warm AF!
 

Gone Peating

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Would the red light portion of sunlight have the same effect? Or just isolated red light?
 

milkboi

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I wonder if I can reap the benefits by just using red light on the face. Can’t afford a whole body light device at the moment.
 
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Hans

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Would the red light portion of sunlight have the same effect? Or just isolated red light?
Yes the red and infrared portion of the sun would have the same benefits. Even if you get a lot of sunlight, I still think additional red and infrared light would be beneficial, because the shorter wavelengths, such as blue and green still lower ATP and increase ROS, whereas the longer wavelengths, 660nm+ lower ROS and increase ATP.
natural_light_spectra2.jpg

It would seem that morning to noon is more blue and green dominant whereas the evening is more red dominant, which would make sense.
So being outside later in the day might have the most benefits.
 
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Hans

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I wonder if I can reap the benefits by just using red light on the face. Can’t afford a whole body light device at the moment.
Some of the benefits are systematic, so yes, shining it on your face can affect your whole body positively.
 

milkboi

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Yes the red and infrared portion of the sun would have the same benefits. Even if you get a lot of sunlight, I still think additional red and infrared light would be beneficial, because the shorter wavelengths, such as blue and green still lower ATP and increase ROS, whereas the longer wavelengths, 660nm+ lower ROS and increase ATP.
natural_light_spectra2.jpg

It would seem that morning to noon is more blue and green dominant whereas the evening is more red dominant, which would make sense.
So being outside later in the day might have the most benefits.

I am working under blue light for 6 hours twice a week. I think I’ve read MB can cancel out the ATP lowering effects of Blue light, is that right?
 
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Hans

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I am working under blue light for 6 hours twice a week. I think I’ve read MB can cancel out the ATP lowering effects of Blue light, is that right?
Methylene blue speeds up cytochrome c and increases ATP production. It can also lower ROS, but I don't think it has a water/cell stabilizing effect like red light. Adamantane and camphor also have very good cell stabilizing effects.
 

Gone Peating

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Yes the red and infrared portion of the sun would have the same benefits. Even if you get a lot of sunlight, I still think additional red and infrared light would be beneficial, because the shorter wavelengths, such as blue and green still lower ATP and increase ROS, whereas the longer wavelengths, 660nm+ lower ROS and increase ATP.
natural_light_spectra2.jpg

It would seem that morning to noon is more blue and green dominant whereas the evening is more red dominant, which would make sense.
So being outside later in the day might have the most benefits.

Good to know thanks for sharing
 

Beastmode

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What benefits do you get from it and where on your body do you use it?

In general, I feel more warm and calm.

The one I linked is quite strong. I still can't find the wavelength, but I definitely overdid it one before bed. I couldn't fall asleep for 3 hours. Very rare for me as I typically can fall asleep within 30 min at most. It was interesting because I didn't feel stressed, I just felt awake.

The 75 watt reptile one my wife uses is much more subtle and gives the same warm and calm experience.
 

Lejeboca

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Key takeaway. Red and infrared light reduces ROS, stimulates ATPase, reduces water viscosity and stabilizes cell membranes (reduces leakiness).

Wait. "Reducing water viscosity" is not a good thing for creating the 4th-phase (or interfacial, or EZ) water because it makes more bulk water. This phase transition might generate more ATP indeed. But if you do not reverse quickly to the EZ water, it's a problem.

This study goes into detail and explains that it's actually the effect the light has on the water in the body that is so beneficial.

I guess, I am reacting to this statement of yours. I am not rebutting the paper.

A beneficial effect on structuring water is from infrared (invisible) light, starting at about 1000nm wave length, which is due to its "mechanical" effect resulting in vibration of water molecules, and thereby their being attracted to each other as dipoles.
 
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Hans

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Wait. "Reducing water viscosity" is not a good thing for creating the 4th-phase (or interfacial, or EZ) water because it makes more bulk water. This phase transition might generate more ATP indeed. But if you do not reverse quickly to the EZ water, it's a problem.
"ROS are the response of mitochondria to external stress. Thus, mitochondria are both source of ATP and ROS. Due to their negative polarity, ROS tend to increase the hydrophilicity of hydrophilic surfaces known to be masked with viscous, glue-like IWL (6,9). By accentuating hydrophilicity, extended ROS bombardments tend to increase IWL viscosity. A similar situation is encountered in the polystyrene Petri dish (10,11).

In a series of model experiments performed on various materials (both hydrophobic and hydrophilic) we showed that 670 nm laser light applied at biostimulatory levels was instrumental in reducing the viscosity of IWLs on hydrophilic surfaces (6)."
 

schultz

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My understanding was/is that it's the blue copper that absorbs the red light, which allows it to flip back to normal (possibly by displacing NO that has attached itself to the respiratory enzyme).

There is no mention of copper in the article.
 
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Hans

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My understanding was/is that it's the blue copper that absorbs the red light, which allows it to flip back to normal (possibly by displacing NO that has attached itself to the respiratory enzyme).

There is no mention of copper in the article.
Yes the article didn't cover everything and it's still more of a theory than anything else. One issue I see with NO theory is that the half life of NO is very short, so blocking NOS will have a great long term effect than just displacing the NO from CytC.
 
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jb116

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"ROS are the response of mitochondria to external stress. Thus, mitochondria are both source of ATP and ROS. Due to their negative polarity, ROS tend to increase the hydrophilicity of hydrophilic surfaces known to be masked with viscous, glue-like IWL (6,9). By accentuating hydrophilicity, extended ROS bombardments tend to increase IWL viscosity. A similar situation is encountered in the polystyrene Petri dish (10,11).

In a series of model experiments performed on various materials (both hydrophobic and hydrophilic) we showed that 670 nm laser light applied at biostimulatory levels was instrumental in reducing the viscosity of IWLs on hydrophilic surfaces (6)."
Hey Hans, speaking of ROS, wanted your opinion. We see sometimes read the benefits of it such as saturated fat+sugar in controlling blood sugar. When and how can we conclude ROS is beneficial or harmful?
 

Noodlz2

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Is there anything better than a fire at night? Super high in red, and pulsing. Would that be better than any electric light? Sitting in front of a fire is mesmerizing.
 

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