Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

[EIRE24]

I think the individual needs to be clear on what their intentions are first and foremost. This is the number 1 reason I see so many folks struggling every January with their New Years resolutions. People get really motivated and they want six pack abs and huge biceps and will do anything to get them (usually calorie restricting while doing 100 crunch’s and bicep curls - I’m exaggerating to illustrate a point). They don’t realise that a caloric restriction makes it difficult to build muscle and to get a six pack you need to be lean and have stomach muscles.

This same clarity of intentions extends to other less lofty desires. If you are chronically ill and deemed overweight the doctor will probably tell you that your ill health stems from obesity and not from the specific foods you are eating or the miriad of drugs they are prescribing you. I’d like to think that people will prioritise their health over some desire for an aesthetic outcome but often health takes second place to what you look like (eg finasteride). Sadly long term health takes a back seat to many of our other desires and doesn’t become a prominent priority until something becomes so prominent we can’t ignore it any longer. I think carrying an excess of fat can cause health issues in itself but that it isn’t necessarily the most pressing priority.

One of the things that attracted me to Peat’s work was that it explained obesity from a perspective other than an excess of consumption. I could not understand how 2 people could maintain their weight on such a significant difference in calories. I spent a year actively restricting calories with the knowledge that it would slow my metabolism. I tried to mitigate this slowing down by increasing carbs, periodic fasting, refeeds and diet breaks. My metabolism was pretty high at the start and as the Kgs dropped off, so did my metabolism. I felt great losing the extra weight and I’m sure I was never supposed to be that heavy (130kg at my heaviest) but I’d run out of metabolic runway and was heading for a crash. In many respects I’m lucky that I’m tall and fairly muscular as even when I was heavily restricting I could still eat at least 1 satisfying meal a day. I’m sitting at around 105kg now and look fairly slim (in clothes) for a middle aged bloke, but it still pains me to see the scales sitting so far from the 96kg I got down to and my belly filling out again.

I can understand the desire to be skinny but it shouldn’t come as a result of daily misery and suffering. I can also understand how difficult it is to eat to requirements after restricting for a long period. I think the pressure to be thin is becoming an issue for young guys as much as girls now. I don’t think it’s bad to want to chase aesthetic goals and people shouldn’t feel bad about wanting to lose fat, wrinkles, regrow hair, etc. I just think it needs to be kept in perspective and sometimes you need to sacrifice or deprioritise these goals to focus on more critical ones.

You are 100% spot on. I had an eating disorder and its the worse thing ever. Ive had the constant hunger etc and have gained loads of weight too but I think a metabolism can be repaired without getting very fat. I'd love if you'd pm me as I have some info on this.

 

[Glassy]

You are 100% spot on. I had an eating disorder and its the worse thing ever. Ive had the constant hunger etc and have gained loads of weight too but I think a metabolism can be repaired without getting very fat. I'd love if you'd pm me as I have some info on this.

I don’t think I got to the point where I’d call it an eating disorder even though my eating was pretty disordered at times. At my worst I was eating one meal a day which happened just after a ran a 60hr fast per week for 4 weeks (just black coffee and water). My appetite increased exponentially to the point I couldn’t control it, which is when alarm bells started going off. I wasn’t binging in the classical sense but I found it strange that my appetite was increasing rather than decreasing with each successive fast. I still saw the whole thing as a bit of a n=1 experiment so didn’t have too much trouble going back to a more “normal” diet (which coincidentally was when I came across this community).

 

[stevrd]

Hi everyone. I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would post some dissenting opinions against Gwyneth's youreatopia site here. The source if found on an amazon review here:
Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Recover from Eating Disorders: Homeodynamic Recovery Method, A Step-by-Step Guide

Read the following quotes as well as some of Gwyneth's work and make an educated decision for yourself if you want to follow her advice.

"All people diagnosed with an eating disorder, whether they have restricted food intake or have binge eating disorder, need to be evaluated for abnormalities in glucose metabolism and insulin function, as the abnormal eating can alter these metabolic processes. When these processes are altered, the appetite and hunger signals can become abnormal. Regular eating can help reverse this." -- Therese Waterhous, PhD/RDN, CEDRD

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If you have an eating disorder, find a specialized, licensed treatment team. Get a sleep study done. Put in the time, money, effort up front and spare your body further self-harm. Do NOT trust internet quacks.

I want to be as clear as possible: the information contained within this book is NOT supported by any eating disorder specialist anywhere. The author has cherry-picked and manipulated existing research in order to create an overly simplistic protocol and make a name for herself online, at the expense of the severely ill and vulnerable. HDRM is dangerous and will further entrench your eating disorder in a way that can seriously harm you.

The entire premise of HDRM rests on a single, very small, doubly-labeled water trial from 1990 that showed that unrestricting female adults ate on average 2000 - 2600 calories per day. From this study and another study showing that people underreport their calorie intake by about 25%, Olwyn extrapolated that if women report they eat 2000 calories per day, then they must really be eating 2500 calories per day. From this, Olwyn insists that all adult women eat at least 2500 calories per day, and she extrapolated further that women with higher BMIs eat above 3000 calories/day. That's it. HDRM is just one random unlicensed, uneducated person's extrapolations from existing bits and pieces of research. There is no meta-analysis or Cochrane review on "minimums," and they are not accepted by eating disorder specialists as making such broad claims are not based in science.

This method is, as per Olwyn's admission, not evidence-based. There are no clinical trials monitoring for positive or adverse outcomes, and there are no longitudinal studies determining remission and relapse rates. There is certainly no informed consent. Still, there are those that feel that it worked for them. These people usually met at least one, if not both, of the following criteria: 1) they started out thin and remained relatively thin and able-bodied (in this context, a BMI <35) throughout their recovery, and/or 2) they had a parent or a partner who was willing and able to single-handedly provide them with food, shelter, clothing, health insurance, medical care, child care, and companionship while the individual remained disabled, housebound, and fixated on food for years.

There is NO WAY TO TELL at the beginning how your body will respond to Olwyn's method. You can start out thin and able-bodied and remain that way, or you can start out thin and able-bodied and experience a rapid domino effect of compounding illness. The following symptoms struck people of all genders, ages, sizes, races and levels of healthy/ability. This is what forum members reported over the years:
- Edema, ie fluid retention. People gained anywhere from 50 lbs in a month to 200 lbs in 18 months. The edema could be firm to the touch, pulling the skin taut and making it shiny; it could be mushy and pitting, creating indentations with applications of pressure; it could be weeping, with fluid literally leaking out of the skin. For people with this response, the edema lingered for many years.
- Disability. Gaining that much edema means it is hard to roll over in bed, wipe and bathe yourself, stand to brush your teeth, put your pants on, make meals for yourself or drive a car safely. You cannot work, you cannot go to school, you cannot socialize. People become effectively housebound, sometimes bedbound, for years as the edema lingers.
- Insulin Resistance. Your body may have compensated for the eating disorder with insulin resistance. Flooding your body with "ultra-processed" food will only further this metabolic disturbance, making it impossible to feel full. It is this insulin resistance which can lead to feelings of "extreme hunger," as it becomes harder and harder for your body to absorb glucose and feel sated. And the excess insulin that your body is producing will lead to extreme fluid retention, ie edema.
- Obstructive sleep apnea and sleep disturbances. The edema will be everywhere: your face, neck, chest, abdomen, limbs, hands, feet, the cartilage in your nose and ears -- in your airway even. Peripheral edema can redistribute towards your upper torso when you are horizontal. The edema closes off your airway when you lay down and puts you at high risk for developing obstructive sleep apnea. With OSA, every time you slow or stop breathing (a hypopneic or apneic event) while you're sleeping, your body will shoot cortisol into your system to wake you up, and you will jerk awake, choking or gasping, with acid reflux pouring into your mouth and your heart pounding. These cortisol spikes will increase the insulin resistance. Each obstructive event disturbs your sleep, and sleep is when you heal. You will NOT undergo "repairs" with OSA. The OSA makes you feel like you've been hit by a truck every morning.
- Type 2 diabetes and neuropathy, nephropathy, retinopathy. At least 30 people developed type 2 diabetes doing HDRM. Many of these people became insulin dependent, requiring up to 300 units of insulin per day. Some people were hospitalized in the ICU for having blood sugars in the 700s; some people required insulin pumps to manage their extreme insulin resistance. The type 2 diabetes led to neuropathic pains in hands and feet (shooting nerve pains or burning sensations), blurred vision and kidney damage.
- Cardiac and respiratory problems. People became hypertensive, with blood pressures in the 180s/100s, and tachycardic at rest, with heart rates in the 140s. They also developed asthma, wheezing, and shortness of breath, all likely due to the edema.
- Gastrointenstinal issues. Forum members complained of IBS-D lasting years as well as issues with constipation. Years long acid reflux was also reported, as was projectile vomiting due to the OSA, hyperinsulinemia and insulin resistance.
- Menstrual irregularities. People became amenorrheic for many years, but some forum members reported having heavy, clotty, daily menstrual bleeding that lasted anywhere from 3 to 25 months.
- Iron and vitamin D deficiencies. Forum members developed severe vitamin D deficiencies -- perhaps due to becoming nocturnal from the sleep abnormalities? Perhaps from becoming essentially housebound for years? Perhaps related to the OSA itself? Some members were amenorrheic but still developed iron deficiency anemia, I don't know why.
- Hair loss, skin rashes. People reported losing up to one third of their hair from the diabetes, and developing treatment resistant, recurrent skin rashes and yeast infections, skin tags, and acanthosis nigricans. Others developed hidradenitis suppurativa, painful boils that emerge in the armpit and groin that left scars after they were gone. Many members also said they lost their usual curl pattern and hair texture as their body went through enormous hormonal upheavals.
- Messed up lab values. Elevated white blood cells, red blood cells, platelets; triglycerides around 500 mg/dl, cholesterol around 600 mg/dl range, CRP around 50 mg/l range, liver enzymes around 300s IU/L.
- Anecdotally, an increased incidence of autoimmune issues. Forum members developed Celiac disease, Hashimoto's, Type 1 diabetes. Perhaps these were coincidental or they were due to the stress of HDRM, I don't know.
- Bizarre eating habits. People reported chugging cream or olive oil at all hours of the day, eating pints of ice cream and milkshakes to "hit their calorie goal," force feeding up to 7000 calories to "recover faster," eating beyond fullness, and compulsively eating the highest calorie entree at every restaurant or fast food option. You become obsessed with calories as Olwyn tells you it is the key to healing.
- Musculoskeletal issues. Chronic, dull aching pain in your long bones, pain in your tail bones that prevents you from standing up for more than 10 seconds at a time. Throbbing, inflammatory pain in all your joints -- fingers, toes, shoulders, knees, ankles, hips. These are all symptoms of OSA.
- Psychological issues. The extreme physical stress your body is going through will cause PTSD-style flashbacks and ruminations, as well as severe anxiety and depression as you lose all semblance of health and life. People reported being suicidal for years.

It took many years to realize how sick people had become as Olwyn censored the forums affiliated with her site. Any time forum members disclosed how much edema they had gained or asked for help with managing the diabetes they had developed, Olwyn would shut down the thread and delete the information under the guise of keeping it a "safe space" and not "triggering new members." People started her protocol with no idea of the adverse outcomes that could happen to them. (By the way, censoring data means that the "researcher" in question is untrustworthy, and there is no way for the client to get informed consent for a treatment.) If people reported being full on amounts below 2500 calories, Olwyn would say that was due to gastroparesis, or that it was their eating disorder telling them not to eat. She would insist that all people ate at least 2500 calories per day, and that if you didn't see them eating that much, it was because they were eating in secret due to diet culture. Olwyn stated that any day you ate less than 2500 calories was a "relapse," and you would need to start the recovery timer over, and that's why recovery was taking years. She insisted that people were struggling with disabling edema for years because they were simply not eating or resting enough. She originally claimed that your "metabolism is not broken," and claimed recovery would take 9 months. She then increased her timeline to 18 months, then 4 - 7 years, and then that there are "no gaurantees in recovery," when people complained of being housebound and disabled for nearly half a decade. When people reported classic diabetes symptoms, she claimed that insulin resistance wasn't real and diabetes isn't a disease. She told people to see doctors, but if the doctor suggested eating less than 2500 calories per day or exercising at all, then that doctor was leading you back to your eating disorder, and you would never regain your full health. All of this fear-mongering led to people becoming more disordered with food, more disabled, more metabolically dysregulated, more isolated and more scared to trust anyone except Olwyn.

Mercifully, after nine years, Olwyn has shut down the forums and no longer directly communicates with ED sufferers (likely to avoid a lawsuit, I am guessing). But if you comb through her poorly written public website (from which her self-published book has been hacked together), you can read that Olwyn claims that diabetes is not a disease, that a 40 lb weight gain in two weeks is normal in recovery, that psychiatric medications are to be avoided, that dieticians are eating disordered themselves and superfluous to recovery, that healthcare licensure is meaningless, that edema is healing (no! it is NOT!).

People can be evangelical about HDRM online, but before receiving their gospel, you need to assess if they have prepared you for the worst case scenario, which could easily happen to you. Ask them if they actually did HDRM, or have they had a treatment team this whole time, where they were refed with specialized medical supervision? Did they have to navigate the convoluted American health insurance system alone, while they were too sick to read a sentence, or have they had access to universal health care and a spouse who can pick up all their slack? Have they really been eating 2500 calories, at minimum, and resting every single day for months or years until their body magically "tapers" on its own, or did they stop counting in order to eat and move intuitively some time ago? How did they deal with doubling their body weight and developing diabetes or OSA or IBS-D, or did they just gain a meager 20 lbs that went away after a year or so? If they don't have clear, concrete, actionable answers for you, beyond platitudes about "balancing your macros" to manage blood sugar issues, than they are in effect asking you to take a very foolish gamble with your health, and they have no skin in the game. The HDRM community will discard and abandon you once you start bringing up valid criticisms, and you will be a medical mystery to your doctors as you spend so much time (as in years) trying to get back to normal.

IT IS NOT NORMAL TO GET SICK LIKE THIS. THIS IS NOT RECOVERY, THIS IS AN EATING DISORDER. You deserve better, you deserve to be healthy, and you deserve to feel normal with food. There are MANY other licensed professionals that can get you back to a place of regular, unrestricted eating (Satter and Tribole are two great leaders in the field). Please get the real help you deserve from a qualified specialist.

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"This is a really important point, there are certain online circles that encourage patients to eat a truly painfully high number of calories and they claim that edema is healing. This is unscientific, misleading and harmful. Edema is not healing, edema is a side effect of insulin production during nutritional rehabilitation. When nutritional rehabilitation is being done properly, with the very rare exception of somebody who has an extremely low albumin level, refeeding edema should go away within 3 weeks. But patients who have perhaps been harmed by various online resources that claim otherwise, I want to empower them compassionately to know that the notion of edema as healing is a myth. [...] I’m no mental health professional but if I was a guessing girl, I would think that a recovery system that universally prescribes extremely high calories to people in perpetuity and which causes people to increase their insulin production very high, for a very sustained period of time causing sustained edema would probably have a secondary gain by claiming that that’s healing because it’s such a common side effect of that practice. There is no eating disorder dietitian in the country who would prescribe such a meal plan unmonitored, unobserved. It’s just important to emphasize that point." Dr. Jennifer L. Gaudiani, MD, CEDS, FAED."

 

[stevrd]

More dissenting reviews of Gwyneth Olwyn's articles/book.

"Gwyneth Olwyn peddles dangerous misinformation when it comes to recovering from an eating disorder. Her information and advice that she gave to her users on her forums often had a population that was already prone to obsession swinging wildly in the other direction when it came to eating behaviors.

What was the result of that? 110 pounds of weight gain. The worst fatty liver case my doctor has ever seen. An a1c of 9.9 when I was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes at the ripe old age of 24. Inflammatory auto-immune issues, nearly resulting in a surgical removal of one of my organs. Monthly emergency room visits. Heart damage. Severe obstructive sleep apnea (I woke up over 400 times a night). Stage II hypertension. Chronic acid reflux that left me unable to communicate without hacking into awful coughing fits. Worrying my parents to death as their child transformed rapidly from being healthy and vibrant to a medical mess in their 20s. Inability to travel. Lost romantic opportunities. 5+ years of my life. Nevermind that I had more anxiety around food than ever, but was constantly convinced by her and her followers to keep eating.

If you had the misfortune of interacting with Gwyneth daring to ask when these issues might go away, you would often get a shrug and a "there's no guarantees in recovery" spiel.

Gwyneth created an environment with her information that she was the all-knowing guru of eating disorder recovery, and by and large you could not trust the medical establishment to help you because they would disagree with her. She only tells you to seek medical guidance so people would be less likely to sue, but if you wanted to disregard your doctor, she would encourage you to do so on the old forums. There are many comparisons to a cult to be made here, including that if you questioned her on the forum, you would be scolded by her and/or banned to "protect the members".

When the community was young, she would often tell people that nearly all of their issues would resolve with continued recovery. As it became clear that the more people ate and the fatter they got, the issues were not going away. The goalposts were then moved. Recovery was only supposed to take maybe 12 months of refeeding. Then 1-2 years. Then 3-5+ years was not uncommon as an answer. She kept extended the length of time and simultaneously telling everyone there are no guarantees.

I've since seen a real medical doctor and gotten real medical help, lost the 100 pounds that I gained from her awful information, and lo and behold, my health returned and all the conditions I mentioned above vanished. Don't let anyone tell you that eating as much as you want forever is somehow good for your body or mind. It is not. Our bodies were not meant to be immobilized by adipose tissue."

"I have had an eating disorder for over 40 years. A few years back, after deciding to embark on recovery again, I came across Gwyneth's book and online forum. I followed her guidelines and gained a tremendous amount of weight...WELL past my set point weight. She encourages people to keep eating THOUSANDS of calories INDEFINITELY. Many people on this forum that SHE shut down were up to 300-400 lbs with many health complications they never had before starting her "recovery" program. After doing extensive research on my own and reading a book written by an M.D. who specializes in Eating Disorder treatment, I found that this is not, IN ANY WAY a healthy way to recover! In my opinion, it is more deadly than the disease itself. I also should mention that Gwyneth has never had an eating disorder nor, does she have any education or credentials to treat eating disorders. I am now in recovery and having much success after reading "Sick Enough" by Jennifer Gaudiani, M.D., CEDS, FAED and also assembling my own team to help guide and support me back to health and I know in my heart that, in the not too distant future, I will be able to FINALLY say that I am fully recovered!"

"By following the guidelines of this person with no credentials (literally, none, she doesn't even have a degree), eating the "minimum" recovery amounts (actually less because I couldn't stomach all the food), I became very overweight, to the point where I was couchbound because my own body could not support my weight. I couldn't walk without severe pain. Every time I went on her forum and questioned anything the cult leader and her minions would degrade me and say I needed to trust the process. Eventually I was diagnosed with PCOS. This protocol made my life h*** and it is unfortunate her heyday was around the time when my ED developed because I could have avoided that whole process by listening to my dietitian. Dietitians, by the way, have degrees, and not all of them have eating disorders, miss Olwyn. Thankfully I finally got fed up and went RIGHT BACK on a diet (a healthy one) and lost most of the weight but it has taken years to get back down to what I was. Olwyn cut a year off my life because she perpetuated fear into the mind of an already-scared person suffering from an eating disorder scared of getting fat. Do NOT by any means necessary DO NOT follow anything this book says. It is all facts and data that are skewed toward what Olwyn wants you to hear and she should be sued for the amount of burden she has placed on the medical industry from her lies."

 

[mrchibbs]

@stevrd

That's horrible.

Reductionist answers like: just eat more calories sound good in theory but can lead to terrible outcomes. If you find yourself gaining 50lbs or more of weight, you're probably not going in the right direction. (I did gain 50 lbs, but I was 40lbs underweight, so I've reached by ideal weight by now)

I think ultimately people need a lot more calories than they eat, but it's all for nothing if they can't metabolize it. Ray talks about a slight weight gain (maybe 20-30 lbs) which is normal if you're underweight and haven't been eating right.

However, maybe people eat big fatty meals, and whole milk and ice cream and ***t like that and they get horribly fat, and that suppresses the thyroid further.

At that point, the solution isn't to eat 1000kcal a day to lose weight, however. It's to massively reduce dietary fat, and to give your liver enough protein to detoxify the stored fats slowly (steaks, shrimps etc.) To activate muscles by walking and a little weight lifting. Coconut oil doesn't end up as fat storage, and can be used right away for energy.

Ray recommends small snacks, low-fat milk, and vitamin D/sunshine, carrot salad (to detoxify estrogen, endotoxin and help the liver do its job). Choline from eggs is also important for the liver. A little liver and oyster provide the other nutrients.

 

[stevrd]

@stevrd

That's horrible.

Reductionist answers like: just eat more calories sound good in theory but can lead to terrible outcomes. If you find yourself gaining 50lbs or more of weight, you're probably not going in the right direction. (I did gain 50 lbs, but I was 40lbs underweight, so I've reached by ideal weight by now)

I think ultimately people need a lot more calories than they eat, but it's all for nothing if they can't metabolize it. Ray talks about a slight weight gain (maybe 20-30 lbs) which is normal if you're underweight and haven't been eating right.

However, maybe people eat big fatty meals, and whole milk and ice cream and ***t like that and they get horribly fat, and that suppresses the thyroid further.

At that point, the solution isn't to eat 1000kcal a day to lose weight, however. It's to massively reduce dietary fat, and to give your liver enough protein to detoxify the stored fats slowly (steaks, shrimps etc.) To activate muscles by walking and a little weight lifting. Coconut oil doesn't end up as fat storage, and can be used right away for energy.

Ray recommends small snacks, low-fat milk, and vitamin D/sunshine, carrot salad (to detoxify estrogen, endotoxin and help the liver do its job). Choline from eggs is also important for the liver. A little liver and oyster provide the other nutrients.

Yes it is horrible. I have been reading youreatopia stuff for the past week and because I often am a fool for convincing arguments, I found myself thinking I need to increase my calorie intake. Glad I found that information. It's always good to consider other points of view before making any big decisions. I think there are a lot of people (such as myself) who don't necessarily fit the mold of someone with a clinical eating disorder, but may be subclinical. I myself have a history of calorie restriction and underweight, which likely brought on a lot of my past metabolic problems. Now that my BMI is in a good range, a lot of those issues are resolved. I think intuitive eating is important, listening to our body's hunger cues, preventing hypoglycemia, etc. But on the other end of the spectrum, I feel that force feeding way beyond our body's needs is just as stressful, and probably an eating disorder in itself. Which is probably not the right course of action for someone with an eating disorder to take. The goal is to reach a point of healthy body weight, normal eating patterns, and normal relationship with food. Gluttony IMO is not a normal relationship with food.

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes it is horrible. I have been reading youreatopia stuff for the past week and because I often am a fool for convincing arguments, I found myself thinking I need to increase my calorie intake. Glad I found that information. It's always good to consider other points of view before making any big decisions. I think there are a lot of people (such as myself) who don't necessarily fit the mold of someone with a clinical eating disorder, but may be subclinical. I myself have a history of calorie restriction and underweight, which likely brought on a lot of my past metabolic problems. Now that my BMI is in a good range, a lot of those issues are resolved. I think intuitive eating is important, listening to our body's hunger cues, preventing hypoglycemia, etc. But on the other end of the spectrum, I feel that force feeding way beyond our body's needs is just as stressful, and probably an eating disorder in itself. Which is probably not the right course of action for someone with an eating disorder to take. The goal is to reach a point of healthy body weight, normal eating patterns, and normal relationship with food. Gluttony IMO is not a normal relationship with food.

You're absolutely right, as the metabolic rate increases, I find it becomes easier to trust and interpret the hunger/craving cues. I.e. when to eat protein, salt, sugar etc.

 

[stevrd]

You're absolutely right, as the metabolic rate increases, I find it becomes easier to trust and interpret the hunger/craving cues. I.e. when to eat protein, salt, sugar etc.

Have you been eating low fat? If so, how has it worked for you. I've tried low fat many times and always end up feeling worse, cold hands and feet, feelings of hypoglycemia, etc... I'm not sure it's for everyone, but at least if people can't tolerate low fat, then a moderate saturated fat intake isn't too bad.

 

[mrchibbs]

Have you been eating low fat? If so, how has it worked for you. I've tried low fat many times and always end up feeling worse, cold hands and feet, feelings of hypoglycemia, etc... I'm not sure it's for everyone, but at least if people can't tolerate low fat, then a moderate saturated fat intake isn't too bad.

Well I don't go crazy over it, but I've tried to avoid fat in the morning, because I often feel like my metabolism isn't up to par in the morning, and most of the fat goes to storage. Instead I eat ripe fruits/fructose along with a little niacinamide/thiamine to get me going (Coffee, low-fat milk and a little t3 too).

I won't skimp on the fat later in the day, I cook my eggs in enough coconut oil and I add a little good quality butter to make them creamy, and I have a little ice cream at night. (Haagen Dasz, with no gums).

I find that if I wait to eat fat until my metabolism and temperatures have gone up, I do much better.

 

[Zigzag]

Well I don't go crazy over it, but I've tried to avoid fat in the morning, because I often feel like my metabolism isn't up to par in the morning, and most of the fat goes to storage. Instead I eat ripe fruits/fructose along with a little niacinamide/thiamine to get me going (Coffee, low-fat milk and a little t3 too).

I won't skimp on the fat later in the day, I cook my eggs in enough coconut oil and I add a little good quality butter to make them creamy, and I have a little ice cream at night. (Haagen Dasz, with no gums).

I find that if I wait to eat fat until my metabolism and temperatures have gone up, I do much better.

It doesn't sound like "low fat" to me. Can you estimate how much you eat?

 

[mrchibbs]

It doesn't sound like "low fat" to me. Can you estimate how much you eat?

I don't track my food anymore.

And I didn't claim to be ''low-fat''. I am conscious of it, and I avoid it the first few hours. I think fat is necessary for absorption of minerals and vitamins, and at night to slow down digestion of protein/carbs for the night. Moreover, I don't think coconut oil is fattening at all in the right context, as Ray has written about.

 

[Zigzag]

I don't track my food anymore.

And I didn't claim to be ''low-fat''. I am conscious of it, and I avoid it the first few hours. I think fat is necessary for absorption of minerals and vitamins, and at night to slow down digestion of protein/carbs for the night. Moreover, I don't think coconut oil is fattening at all in the right context, as Ray has written about.

How much dietary fat is considered "massively reduced" amount? I'm asking, because there is a thread where OP said he has developed severe gallbladder issues, but I think you've read that already.

 

[mrchibbs]

How much dietary fat is considered "massively reduced" amount? I'm asking, because there is a thread where OP said he has developed severe gallbladder issues, but I think you've read that already.

In my view it means, drinking low-fat milk. Not eating eggs and bacon in the morning etc. Avoiding cooking oils, unless absolutely needed for absorption. Emphasis coconut oil vs. butter. Maybe eating applesauce instead of ice cream etc

 

[Jennifer]

Reading those reviews hits hard. I'm reminded of all things I, and so many others, have gone through in an attempt to heal. Anyway...

@stevrd -- I was a member of the old youreatopia forum 8 or so years ago, and I agree with much of what was written in the reviews -- particularly with the first review in your second post. I think I may know who the author of it is. There was a member I interacted with on the forum who had gained 100 lbs and was still gaining when I left the forum. Between the auto-immune issues and excess weight, she was in so much pain and discomfort that she could no longer walk and was still given the advice to keep at it. I've thought of her often since and hoped that she left the forum soon after and got her life back.

I followed Olwyn's advice, mainly her caloric recommendations (I refed on real food, mainly French/Canadian French meals), out of desperation, and my understanding of the body was still in its infancy. My spine collapsed one day in my 20s due to advanced osteoporosis and because doctors deemed me incurable and I couldn't take meds (they made me vomit, busting out my already fractured ribs and spine), I was in unimaginable pain for years, not only from the fractures but other complications from the resulting spinal deformity and inflammation, and desperate to find relief. After doctors, WAPF and RBTI failed to produce a menstrual cycle, something I was told I needed or my bones would keep deteriorating, and inspired by people like Matt Stone and Billy Craig, I came across the information on Olwyn's site and thought maybe I just needed to eat more and gain weight.

The standard advice given on the forum was to get at least the minimum recommended calories daily and eat whenever we thought of food, that this was a sign we needed to eat as we couldn't yet rely on our own hunger cues due to our previous "undereating," and to get some sweatpants. Since I think of food all the time, even when not hungry, I was consuming 6000+ daily and I'm a tiny person. I had such bad indigestion that I would wake nightly choking on acid, and my stint with youreatopia ended in the ER doubled over in pain and vomiting from severe gastritis. I almost lost my gallbladder that night and have struggled with terrible gut and gallbladder issues since. After this I started Peating, the extra weight slowly came off and I finally got a period.

In my opinion and experience, there's danger in diagnosing people as having eating disorders without knowing their personal history, and it's one thing to eat if we're truly hungry and a whole other thing if we're force-feeding ourselves because of someone else's caloric recommendations and the idea that we won't undo all the damage unless we do, which was the basic message of youreatopia. Maybe those whom the recommendations worked for would see it differently, though. I remember there was one member, the only one at the time, who had lost weight or "hit her set point" via eating Olwyn's recommendations, and you could see members hung their hopes on her, just like how many people who followed Matt Stone were inspired by Billy Craig's and Cheif's success with refeeding, to do so also. I suppose it's the same with any health forum, really. I can't blame people. We just want to feel better.

 

[stevrd]

Reading those reviews hits hard. I'm reminded of all things I, and so many others, have gone through in an attempt to heal. Anyway...

@stevrd -- I was a member of the old youreatopia forum 8 or so years ago, and I agree with much of what was written in the reviews -- particularly with the first review in your second post. I think I may know who the author of it is. There was a member I interacted with on the forum who had gained 100 lbs and was still gaining when I left the forum. Between the auto-immune issues and excess weight, she was in so much pain and discomfort that she could no longer walk and was still given the advice to keep at it. I've thought of her often since and hoped that she left the forum soon after and got her life back.

I followed Olwyn's advice, mainly her caloric recommendations (I refed on real food, mainly French/Canadian French meals), out of desperation, and my understanding of the body was still in its infancy. My spine collapsed one day in my 20s due to advanced osteoporosis and because doctors deemed me incurable and I couldn't take meds (they made me vomit, busting out my already fractured ribs and spine), I was in unimaginable pain for years, not only from the fractures but other complications from the resulting spinal deformity and inflammation, and desperate to find relief. After doctors, WAPF and RBTI failed to produce a menstrual cycle, something I was told I needed or my bones would keep deteriorating, and inspired by people like Matt Stone and Billy Craig, I came across the information on Olwyn's site and thought maybe I just needed to eat more and gain weight.

The standard advice given on the forum was to get at least the minimum recommended calories daily and eat whenever we thought of food, that this was a sign we needed to eat as we couldn't yet rely on our own hunger cues due to our previous "undereating," and to get some sweatpants. Since I think of food all the time, even when not hungry, I was consuming 6000+ daily and I'm a tiny person. I had such bad indigestion that I would wake nightly choking on acid, and my stint with youreatopia ended in the ER doubled over in pain and vomiting from severe gastritis. I almost lost my gallbladder that night and have struggled with terrible gut and gallbladder issues since. After this I started Peating, the extra weight slowly came off and I finally got a period.

In my opinion and experience, there's danger in diagnosing people as having eating disorders without knowing their personal history, and it's one thing to eat if we're truly hungry and a whole other thing if we're force-feeding ourselves based on someone else's caloric recommendations and the idea that we won't undo all the damage unless we do, which was the basic message of youreatopia. Maybe those whom the recommendations worked for would see it differently, though. I remember there was one member, the only one at the time, who had lost weight or "hit her set point" via eating Olwyn's recommendations, and you could see members hung their hopes on her, just like how many people who followed Matt Stone were inspired by Billy Craig's and Cheif's success with refeeding, to do so also. I suppose it's the same with any health forum, really. I can't blame people. We just want to feel better.

Hi Jennifer. Thank you for your candid post. What you went through sounds like a nightmare. I'm happy that you are menstruating and feel better now. I have a history of orthorexia and under eating; and so when I found Peat I ended up in a bad state where I would be hyper-neurotic about my food, trying to control every aspect of my food, macro/micro nutrients, etc. Matt Stone's articles helped my break out of that mindset and ever since I have been much more lax with diet and in tune with my cues, hunger, cravings, etc... After reading some of Olwyn's articles the past week I made the connection that it was similar to Matt Stone's work. I have gained weight since following Stone, but I finally realized that I am on the other end of the spectrum now and am not happy with being overweight. I have decided to lose some weight in a healthy way by taking a gradual approach and eating more solid foods to help. I have found in my experience I feel best within a BMI range of 24-27. I am strong and athletic in that range, my libido is good, and I feel like I can move easier throughout the day with more energy.

I think it's awful that Olwyn told people not to worry about obesity and to just keep eating. She would tell people to ignore their feelings of discontentment with their weight, increased pain, bloating, A1c/blood sugar readings, etc... I totally understand that there is cultural prejudice against overweight/obese individuals, which is also horrible. But to ignore peoples' feelings when they are not happy with gaining a ton of weight and are starting to have health problems as a result is unempathetic. I would argue her writing style and the way she treated people, she may be a narcisist.

My point in the last paragraph is people have a right to pursue improvements in body composition, even just for self-confidence and quality of life. And to tell people that the pursuit of this is going to harm their health is dishonest. A real eating disorder treatment center with real therapists will focus on helping people with improving their relationship with food as well as learning how to accept their bodies where they are, but also encourage people to manage their weight. ED therapists do not tell people to just eat non-stop or continue to eat even when full, because these are not healthy behaviors to reinforce.

I think there are certain facets of intuitive eating that make a lot of sense though, and this is often where my arguments stand against some Peat-inspired recommendations. For example, drinking 2L of milk a day will often require one to drink when not thirsty and the excess liquids can often make someone feel cold. I know it has for me. I discussed this with Dr. Peat and he said if I didn't want to drink that much fluid I shouldn't do it, and instead I can eat cheese, meat, and gelatin for protein. Dr. Peat is very flexible and doesn't tell people to follow dogmatic approaches.

Sorry to rant on about myself. Once again I am sorry you had to go through all that pain, but am happy you are better now. I think Olwyn is a perfect case study of someone who is so convincing she can even convince very intelligent and well-educated people to go against their own intuition and let their guards down when they really should be questioning the validity of absurd claims.

 

[Jennifer]

Hi Jennifer. Thank you for your candid post. What you went through sounds like a nightmare. I'm happy that you are menstruating and feel better now. I have a history of orthorexia and under eating; and so when I found Peat I ended up in a bad state where I would be hyper-neurotic about my food, trying to control every aspect of my food, macro/micro nutrients, etc. Matt Stone's articles helped my break out of that mindset and ever since I have been much more lax with diet and in tune with my cues, hunger, cravings, etc... After reading some of Olwyn's articles the past week I made the connection that it was similar to Matt Stone's work. I have gained weight since following Stone, but I finally realized that I am on the other end of the spectrum now and am not happy with being overweight. I have decided to lose some weight in a healthy way by taking a gradual approach and eating more solid foods to help. I have found in my experience I feel best within a BMI range of 24-27. I am strong and athletic in that range, my libido is good, and I feel like I can move easier throughout the day with more energy.

I think it's awful that Olwyn told people not to worry about obesity and to just keep eating. She would tell people to ignore their feelings of discontentment with their weight, increased pain, bloating, A1c/blood sugar readings, etc... I totally understand that there is cultural prejudice against overweight/obese individuals, which is also horrible. But to ignore peoples' feelings when they are not happy with gaining a ton of weight and are starting to have health problems as a result is unempathetic. I would argue her writing style and the way she treated people, she may be a narcisist.

My point in the last paragraph is people have a right to pursue improvements in body composition, even just for self-confidence and quality of life. And to tell people that the pursuit of this is going to harm their health is dishonest. A real eating disorder treatment center with real therapists will focus on helping people with improving their relationship with food as well as learning how to accept their bodies where they are, but also encourage people to manage their weight. ED therapists do not tell people to just eat non-stop or continue to eat even when full, because these are not healthy behaviors to reinforce.

I think there are certain facets of intuitive eating that make a lot of sense though, and this is often where my arguments stand against some Peat-inspired recommendations. For example, drinking 2L of milk a day will often require one to drink when not thirsty and the excess liquids can often make someone feel cold. I know it has for me. I discussed this with Dr. Peat and he said if I didn't want to drink that much fluid I shouldn't do it, and instead I can eat cheese, meat, and gelatin for protein. Dr. Peat is very flexible and doesn't tell people to follow dogmatic approaches.

Sorry to rant on about myself. Once again I am sorry you had to go through all that pain, but am happy you are better now. I think Olwyn is a perfect case study of someone who is so convincing she can even convince very intelligent and well-educated people to go against their own intuition and let their guards down when they really should be questioning the validity of absurd claims.

You're welcome! Thank you for your kind words. :) And no worries! Rant all you want. :)

I'm really glad Matt's articles helped you break free from that mindset and build a healthy relationship with your body and food. I feel gratitude toward him, myself. He offered me help when I was at my worst, which eventually led to the understanding I have now so I have no regrets. I feel my broken road was blessed. :) And I agree with you. I think taking healthy steps to achieve a level of comfort in our skin can be an act of self-love and respect for the body we've been gifted to express ourselves in this life. I don't want to have a messed up spine the rest of my life and not to sound harsh but I couldn't care less if someone feels I have an eating disorder because I've been dedicated to what makes me feel my best and may potentially regenerate my spine. Those in my life know what I've been through so they understand my lifestyle, but there was a time many didn't and I kept doing my thing anyway, and now I can walk again, dance again, live again. If our motivation for doing what we do is based on love for ourselves and our lives, it's totally healthy in my eyes.

And yeah, agreed! I respect everyone here but I don't consider our advice as representative of Ray's advice. Whenever I communicated with him, he recommended the standard treatments and foods many of us know to be typical to Ray, but not like what was popular on the forum such as the milk and OJ diet, and that's even when I was having trouble with fiber and asked if he thought a fiber-free diet was safe. I'm not even sure how that "Peat Diet" got started but it wouldn't surprise me if it was born out of a way to lose the weight, that many seem to gain when switching to their interpretation of Ray's work, after having read where he mentioned a diet of low-fat milk and OJ as a way to lose weight while getting the necessary nutrients. Or maybe because of digestive issues people often experience and think the diet will help relieve them. All I know is, the foods Ray recommended to you are in the list of foods Ray told me he recommends. Unfortunately, extremism, I believe often born out of fear and/or desperation, plagues health forums.

 

[B___Danny]

Reading Gwenyth Owlyn’s work will help guide one in the right direction towards health. The problem comes when you think that just because she has some valid beliefs, therefore she is infallible.
I am sure that those who gained 100+ pounds did not gain 100 pounds of fat. Look up what 5 pounds of fat looks like. Only those that weigh 400-500 pounds will have close to 100 pounds of true excess fat. Most weight that is carried in a unwell and/or growing organism is water weight.
The reason excess fat is unattractive is because it is only supposed to be present in a developing baby (a chubby baby). You can look up pictures of chubby babies and compare it to those who have excess fat. They both store fat in the same way, and it shows that the grown organism was never given enough calories and nutrition to develop their adipose tissue. Ray Peat had mentioned that men that came out of the holocaust grew breasts after starvation.

The two ways out of this stage are 1) diet down to a low body fat percentage and restrict for the rest of your life or 2) Give your body what it needs, when it needs it, in how much it asks for. The human body is rational and is always striving toward greater health. Weight is controlled by hormones, hormones are controlled by the brain/central nervous system. To think that a man-made calorie number has any relevance toward your body’s health is a very simpleton view.
Think: How many humans fail at restricting calories to achieve health? My answer is about 9/10 of the humans I know who have tried, and , in my parents generation, 10/10. To advise someone to go against their bodies food cravings has never been proven to create a healthier organism with greater longevity.

 

[Dutchie]

@stevrd You're right, it can be dangerous when you don't know what you're possibly dealing with.
Years ago when I was underweight (not bc of an ED), I went on a similar venture like that of Olwyn inspired by 180degreeshealth and even consulted a Peat-inspired nutritionist (who basically layed out a Peat-inspired frame and told me to eat high calorie). So,in a bliss of all the yummy food I got to eat I did....it was certainly the most delicious time of my life, I gained weight...but I also lost the health I'd built up along the way.

That was 3-4 years ago and I still carry the bodyfat (mainly belly/midsection), which I just can't seem to lose. Built up more sensitivities , got covered in big moles/age spots or whatever they are all over my body, lost lots of hair,got hair on unwanted places, teeth eroded a lot,my strenght decreased,stopped menstruating since last year...
I saw many specialists the past couple of years,none of them knew what to make of it bc my bloodwork came out 'within the range'.
I look worse than before I started this 'adventure'...

 

[stevrd]

Reading Gwenyth Owlyn’s work will help guide one in the right direction towards health. The problem comes when you think that just because she has some valid beliefs, therefore she is infallible.
I am sure that those who gained 100+ pounds did not gain 100 pounds of fat. Look up what 5 pounds of fat looks like. Only those that weigh 400-500 pounds will have close to 100 pounds of true excess fat. Most weight that is carried in a unwell and/or growing organism is water weight.
The reason excess fat is unattractive is because it is only supposed to be present in a developing baby (a chubby baby). You can look up pictures of chubby babies and compare it to those who have excess fat. They both store fat in the same way, and it shows that the grown organism was never given enough calories and nutrition to develop their adipose tissue. Ray Peat had mentioned that men that came out of the holocaust grew breasts after starvation.

The two ways out of this stage are 1) diet down to a low body fat percentage and restrict for the rest of your life or 2) Give your body what it needs, when it needs it, in how much it asks for. The human body is rational and is always striving toward greater health. Weight is controlled by hormones, hormones are controlled by the brain/central nervous system. To think that a man-made calorie number has any relevance toward your body’s health is a very simpleton view.
Think: How many humans fail at restricting calories to achieve health? My answer is about 9/10 of the humans I know who have tried, and , in my parents generation, 10/10. To advise someone to go against their bodies food cravings has never been proven to create a healthier organism with greater longevity.

I see your points. But I think I have to ask, when you say "give your body what it needs when it needs it in how much it asks for," do you mean within the context of any type of food? Because as others have said on this thread, the body has cues like hunger, hypoglycemia, salt cravings, etc because it intuitively knows what it needs; but problems arise when we eat inappropriate foods full of chemicals that encourage over-consumption, or choose to eat foods that are not nourishing. Just because we are eating enough calories, doesn't mean we are nourished. We could eat a diet of nothing but donuts and pizza, but we will run into problems sooner or later with nutrient deficiencies, etc... Also, putting calories aside, many people can satisfy their internal hunger and craving cues while eating wholesome foods, whether they are purposefully restricting calories or not. I totally agree with you that the idea of calories having much relevance to the body's health doesn't make sense and is a simpleton view. I just thought I'd clarify that while I don't think people should necessarily track or restrict calories, they can choose to eat healthier, which would inadvertently help them with weight management, improved body composition, etc...

I don't agree with calorie tracking for weight management. I think it's all about the approach. I have rarely seen anybody track their calories to lose weight and manage to keep it off. But I have seen plenty of people lose weight and permanently keep it off by adopting a healthier lifestyle and choosing whole foods over processed crap. Personally I don't feel that purposefully tracking calories ever really helps anyone long term.

 

[stevrd]

@stevrd You're right, it can be dangerous when you don't know what you're possibly dealing with.
Years ago when I was underweight (not bc of an ED), I went on a similar venture like that of Olwyn inspired by 180degreeshealth and even consulted a Peat-inspired nutritionist (who basically layed out a Peat-inspired frame and told me to eat high calorie). So,in a bliss of all the yummy food I got to eat I did....it was certainly the most delicious time of my life, I gained weight...but I also lost the health I'd built up along the way.

That was 3-4 years ago and I still carry the bodyfat (mainly belly/midsection), which I just can't seem to lose. Built up more sensitivities , got covered in big moles/age spots or whatever they are all over my body, lost lots of hair,got hair on unwanted places, teeth eroded a lot,my strenght decreased,stopped menstruating since last year...
I saw many specialists the past couple of years,none of them knew what to make of it bc my bloodwork came out 'within the range'.
I look worse than before I started this 'adventure'...

Sorry to hear that. Have you been trying to return to your old self/body weight? It's interesting how the health problems you report having from following such hypercaloric approaches are precisely the health problems that those approaches are proposed to help improve. Just goes to show that we need to be careful who we follow and clearly define the reasons why we are doing what we are doing. I'm sorry that you look worse than before you started this adventure. How do you feel? I know you said you had a lot of health issues arise. Have those since improved or still the same?