Recovery From Undereating - Youreatopia

[Tarmander]

ARFID is short for avoidant restrictive food intake disorder so it's a lot like orthorexia. I actually participated in an orthorexia research study.
I was in my early 40's and everything was failing. I could hardly eat because of gastroparesis, my bowels were a mess (even had a possible carcinoid tumor scare), I had persistent tachycardia, had lived with chronic fatigue syndrome for over 10 years, weakness, dizziness etc plus failing relationships and work was becoming physically impossible ... no doctor could help me beyond a celiac disease diagnosis but that wasn't enough to resolve all my issues so I landed here and things started improving. Quite dramatically at first but the more I learned the more I realized I had to completely change and stick with it.

I will work on digging through everything I've saved and post whatever links I can find by tomorrow.

Thanks for sharing

 

[Blossom]

Thank you too @Tarmander. I'm glad we can share our experiences.

 

[Tarmander]

Thank you too @Tarmander. I'm glad we can share our experiences.

Me too. Hope it helps somebody! Ha!

 

[Blossom]

@milknpotatoes, Here is what I was referring to earlier in the the tread when I mentioned reading about disability from eating disorders. FWIW It is only an opinion piece in the form of a response from Gwyneth on topic and not a study.

"Recovery at any age to full remission can also reverse the necessity of any kind of permanent or long term disability that precludes you from working.

Anyone who maintains and active clinical or sub-clinical restrictive eating disorder throughout adulthood tends to develop so many progressive challenges that they are effectively unable to hold even regular part-time work beyond about their mid-40s.

And although the recovery process is exhausting and tough at any age, it is not a permanent state. Usually those who attempt recovery at a point in their lives when they are already partially unable to hold down a job due to the progressive physical and mental difficulties that come with cumulative energy deficits in the body, they likely need a good 18 months with solid rest and re-feeding before they could contemplate a return to work of some kind.

In other words, because you are in an active recovery process now, you can likely anticipate that you will be able to return to whatever job or career is of interest to you.

In some rare cases, there will be patients who, despite actually getting to remission from a restrictive eating disorder, are unable to return to work. Sometimes the damage to particular organs is just not reversible -- but that is very rare and usually involves individuals who have actually never been able to work (their eating disorder tended to have them cycling in and out of emergent care).

When a patient is not in a position to pursue full remission, then it is always best to actively manage the condition with harm reduction interventions. However, in those cases, usually the patient will not be able to hold down a job beyond her mid-40s. And in those cases, the disability assessment can be done by a general practitioner and usually doesn't need eating disorder specialization -- because essentially the disabilities are self-evident physical deficits (pernicious anemia, cardiovascular issues, various gastrointestinal problems, osteoporosis, cognitive deficits...etc. etc.).

Does that cover off what you were asking? G."

 

[Dopamine]

Hi everyone,

I appreciate all the replies in this thread. I too am both familiar with Peat and Olywn.

I have a bad history of anorexia athletica (male) which led me into studying nutrition. I tried ditching it all once and going with Olywn's recommendation of including junk when hungry for it (including tons of PUFA) and man did that go horribly. I've tried the same calories/perhaps more focusing on saturated fats and limiting PUFA with drastically different results. However, I still haven't solved my main issues of deep hunger and very dark blueish/purple circles under my eyes.

When I had anorexia athletica, I went from having no hunger ever (just sort of semi-hunger if that makes sense) to a hunger that won't go away. Like before I always could eat, but I never needed to eat. And if the situation where I didn't eat for a while occurred it was no problem. I never got that feeling deep down of hunger, if that makes sense. Now, I have an ever nagging sense of hunger that won't go away even after large meals. It goes away a little bit when I put on more weight. But during the refeeding it gets horribly bad (extreme hunger). It's almost positively due to FFM ratio loss that won't be restored until I overshoot by a good amount. I got down to a BMI of roughly 17 at one point and lost my libido for years, not to even mention things like severely receded gums, etc. Right now I'm hanging out at around BMI 21.

The worst part of it all is that I may never recover because I'm too afraid of overreaching my weight. I've been relatively pudgy in an attempt to overfeed but never got to become overweight. My libido comes back in spades but my dark circles don't really fade unless I have super low stress and am eating all the time, and even then it's tough to get in that zone. I need 10+ hours of sleep, good days filled with lots of enjoyment, and lots of high nutrient density foods filled with plenty of calories (both carbs and fats).

I only give my best wishes to you guys out there recovering from an eating disorder. It's tough. Really tough.

I relate to your story... Athletic background- was a top athlete in school and really happy. Switched schools at a young age and went through a lot of stress. Didn't adapt well or make new friends well. Got social anxiety and body image issues... Got obsessed with bodybuilding and exercise- then nutrition and dieting- now I spend most of the day thinking about food... logging on cronometer... don't know what to eat or how much to eat even after thousands of hours of researching nutrition. I try to eat more but I have little appetite and also digestive issues. I'm cold all the time. Don't sleep. Don't leave the house often. Quit my job and university. I lie down sometimes and don't have the energy to get up.

I only recently realized I probaly had an eating disorder. Never been to a doctor though.

I also tried Olywns recommendations. I lasted about 3 days then I guess just couldn't keep it going. I was still tracking food obsessively but I was eating 3500-4100 calories which is good. Got a night of bad sleep and got depressed and went back to not eating much. I probaly eat around 2000-2500 calories per day right now. I've gained 5lbs eating mostly pancakes and kraft dinner and stuff.

I feel ok sometimes I just have a really bad relationship with food. I don't know whats good for me anymore.

 

[Dopamine]

I have been looking at what athletes eat

Michael Phelps has a pretty crazy diet (12,000 calories per day). Matt Stone would be proud
Michael Phelps Diet

I kind of wish I could eat like that

 

[EIRE24]

I have been looking at what athletes eat

Michael Phelps has a pretty crazy diet (12,000 calories per day). Matt Stone would be proud
Michael Phelps Diet

I kind of wish I could eat like that

This isn't actually true. I watched an interview with him and his calories are way less than this but still high. It's in the range of 4-5k calories

 

[squanch]

I have been looking at what athletes eat

Michael Phelps has a pretty crazy diet (12,000 calories per day). Matt Stone would be proud
Michael Phelps Diet

I kind of wish I could eat like that

 

[PeatThemAll]

It's definitely a relearning process. I'm not comfortable yet with the process of Carbing the F*** Up. On the one hand, when I keep fats ultra low and moderate protein, I recover from exercise far better than any macro combination I've tried in the past. On the other hand, eating 4-5 bowls of cereal (only, sometimes add raisins) at dinner time because I've had enough protein for the day, is almost like training to failure, food wise. Doesn't feel natural at all. No idea where all these extra calories are going, but my waistline stays the same. One day at a time!

 

[MommaBear]

Thank you for this thread! I have a lifetime of food restrictions that tanked my thyroid. Not being fed as a toddler is what put me into foster care and then living with a super thin adoptive mom who also restricted food. I was never hugely overweight until after my 3rd child when I was gaining weight and only eating a bowl of cereal and an apple a day. Dr's said I was lying about my intake and said i needed to lower calories.

I ate raw a few yes with no change in weight. I ate clean and had good fatsbut still low calorie. The hcg diet was easy except still a lot more food than I was used to. Gluten free. Dairy free. Chemical free. Processed Sugar-free? Etc. You know the drill. At one point I realized I was stuck in a starvation reflex but didn't know how to stop it.

After the birth of #6 I lost weight without trying aND was athe a haply weight (still ovet weight bUT 160 was a good place for me). But a divorce and another unexpected pregnancy probably helped. And I craved and ate a lot of McDonald's fries and Starbucks Frappuccinos. And a lor of fruit (gallstone attacks were frequent during this time when I ate other foods)

My main goal with diet was to increase energy and decrease my joint pain (injury from the Navy ) but NOTHING HAS HELPED. The edema is crazy!

Until Peating. My pain is tolerable. My energy is increasing. But as I eat, I am gaining weight and freaking out. From 165 to 197 is scaring me a ton. So I start restrictions again.

I am hoping to recover. And am happy to read this post and know that I will be ok! It is interesting to read that so many health issues are from starving?!

I need to make friends with food and stop believing it is evil. I also need to make friends with my belly pudge and love myself the way my kids and boyfriend do. (Some days I think they secretly wish me to stay fat cuz they love snuggling it )

Anyway. Thank you so much for this!

Altho. .I don't know how I will afford to feed us all on such high calories?! My budget is already nearly $800 a month for food and I restrict us all....

 

[A.R]

Subscribed

 

[Giraffe]

SAFArmer is spot on regarding calories...

"Enough food must be supplied to allow tissues destroyed during starvation to be rebuilt … our experiments have shown that in an adult man no appreciable rehabilitation can take place on a diet of 2000 calories [actually 2000 kcal (8368 kJ)] a day. The proper level is more like 4000 [4000 kcal (16,736 kJ)] daily for some months. The character of the rehabilitation diet is important also, but unless calories are abundant, then extra proteins, vitamins and minerals are of little value (20)." - Ancel Keys.

the rest of a very good article on the experiment can be found here for anybody that wants further info: They Starved So That Others Be Better Fed: Remembering Ancel Keys and the Minnesota Experiment

Here is an article about the Minnesota starvation experiment that was written in the 40s.

What happens when people starve

 

[Astra10]

Wanted to hop in and add to this conversation. Youreatopia/TabithaFarrar/MattStone and other eat-to-cravings advice was the route I took to recovery from my eating disorder restriction and overexercise, but it's still hard to see the resulting weight gain and hyperlipidemia. I upped calories slowly at first and reduced exercise slowly but continued to binge and be obsessed until I went "all in" with eating and rest. I then went through extreme hunger and gained weight impressively. While I wish I had never restricted and chased a fitness body and "health" I'm glad I crashed and burned so spectacularly that I didn't keep restricting for longer. I had some decent weightlifting numbers and other athletic achievements but the food and exercise obsession was a terrible price to pay. It was a prison with small walls and increasingly terrible mood, zero libido, and overall confusion as I was so "healthy" and yet so miserable.

I had thyroid tests a few months ago but am in normal ranges, still not sure if I'm interpreting them correctly.

I've been in recovery for about 1.5 years and can't even humor the thought of restricting again or forcing weight loss through energy manipulation (increase exercise, decrease food). But being overweight despite eating low PUFAs for most of my recovery has been uncomfortable. This thread was comforting - I've only been at this a year so I take heart. I do, majorly, feel much better even with obesity and the resulting judgement from others and myself.

 

[Luann]

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[tara]

[QUTE="Astra10, post: 289380, member: 7287"]I had thyroid tests a few months ago but am in normal ranges, still not sure if I'm interpreting them correctly.[/QUOTE]
Have you read Peat's articles on thyroid on his website? He would tend to see lab values as something to be interpreted along with signs and symptoms, and has some comments on the standard ranges often used by drs.
Ray Peat

Monitoring your body temps and resting heart rate can also give you indicators about your base metabolism that you can measure yourself.

 

[Astra10]

[QUTE="Astra10, post: 289380, member: 7287"]I had thyroid tests a few months ago but am in normal ranges, still not sure if I'm interpreting them correctly.

Have you read Peat's articles on thyroid on his website? He would tend to see lab values as something to be interpreted along with signs and symptoms, and has some comments on the standard ranges often used by drs.
Ray Peat

Monitoring your body temps and resting heart rate can also give you indicators about your base metabolism that you can measure yourself.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Tara! Yes my temps and resting HR are low and I've read those articles so I eventually dismissed the "normal" lab results.

I tried NDT for a few months this winter (Nov/Dec/Jan just a morning single tablet of 130mg NDT) but didn't notice any benefit and was too scared to up the dose.
I still haven't recovered temps/HR so I will try again. I'm going to do 2 weeks of 1x130mg and then add a midday tablet of 1x65mg, and keep adding 1x65mg every two weeks until my temp/HR rises or I get to the limit of 520mg.

 

[tara]

I tried NDT for a few months this winter (Nov/Dec/Jan just a morning single tablet of 130mg NDT) but didn't notice any benefit and was too scared to up the dose.

Hi Astra,
If the NDT you have is active, then that's quite a significant starting dose. And then maybe make smaller increments. The T4 component has a longish half life, but the T3 part is shorter-lived. If it were me, I'd consider splitting the original dose into 3 to take 3 x a day, and see if that works any better.
(Could also be that you have a less effective product.)
You know a lot of thermometers take 5-10 mins to come up to stable body temps, even if they say they are quicker? Mine can go up by > 1C (>2F) after it's beeped to say it's finished.

 

[Astra10]

Hi Astra,
If the NDT you have is active, then that's quite a significant starting dose. And then maybe make smaller increments. The T4 component has a longish half life, but the T3 part is shorter-lived. If it were me, I'd consider splitting the original dose into 3 to take 3 x a day, and see if that works any better.
(Could also be that you have a less effective product.)
You know a lot of thermometers take 5-10 mins to come up to stable body temps, even if they say they are quicker? Mine can go up by > 1C (>2F) after it's beeped to say it's finished.

Hm, I should probably get a better thermometer. I wait after the beep but it turns off itself pretty quickly.

I am going to split that dose - thank you! I worry it's not an effective product. I'll see what happens by splitting and upping the dose. The container says not to exceed 4 capsules a day so I figured 1 wouldn't be a big deal, although once I looked up the conversions I think you're right and it was a pretty high starting dose.

 

[tara]

Hm, I should probably get a better thermometer. I wait after the beep but it turns off itself pretty quickly.

I leave my thermometer in place and take the temp repeatedly till it stops going up and I get at least two consecutive readings the same. Sometimes put it in place for a couple of minutes before I even turn it on. It's not just about how good the thermometer is - heat has to transfer to it from your body, and that takes time.

 

[Glassy]

I think the individual needs to be clear on what their intentions are first and foremost. This is the number 1 reason I see so many folks struggling every January with their New Years resolutions. People get really motivated and they want six pack abs and huge biceps and will do anything to get them (usually calorie restricting while doing 100 crunch’s and bicep curls - I’m exaggerating to illustrate a point). They don’t realise that a caloric restriction makes it difficult to build muscle and to get a six pack you need to be lean and have stomach muscles.

This same clarity of intentions extends to other less lofty desires. If you are chronically ill and deemed overweight the doctor will probably tell you that your ill health stems from obesity and not from the specific foods you are eating or the miriad of drugs they are prescribing you. I’d like to think that people will prioritise their health over some desire for an aesthetic outcome but often health takes second place to what you look like (eg finasteride). Sadly long term health takes a back seat to many of our other desires and doesn’t become a prominent priority until something becomes so prominent we can’t ignore it any longer. I think carrying an excess of fat can cause health issues in itself but that it isn’t necessarily the most pressing priority.

One of the things that attracted me to Peat’s work was that it explained obesity from a perspective other than an excess of consumption. I could not understand how 2 people could maintain their weight on such a significant difference in calories. I spent a year actively restricting calories with the knowledge that it would slow my metabolism. I tried to mitigate this slowing down by increasing carbs, periodic fasting, refeeds and diet breaks. My metabolism was pretty high at the start and as the Kgs dropped off, so did my metabolism. I felt great losing the extra weight and I’m sure I was never supposed to be that heavy (130kg at my heaviest) but I’d run out of metabolic runway and was heading for a crash. In many respects I’m lucky that I’m tall and fairly muscular as even when I was heavily restricting I could still eat at least 1 satisfying meal a day. I’m sitting at around 105kg now and look fairly slim (in clothes) for a middle aged bloke, but it still pains me to see the scales sitting so far from the 96kg I got down to and my belly filling out again.

I can understand the desire to be skinny but it shouldn’t come as a result of daily misery and suffering. I can also understand how difficult it is to eat to requirements after restricting for a long period. I think the pressure to be thin is becoming an issue for young guys as much as girls now. I don’t think it’s bad to want to chase aesthetic goals and people shouldn’t feel bad about wanting to lose fat, wrinkles, regrow hair, etc. I just think it needs to be kept in perspective and sometimes you need to sacrifice or deprioritise these goals to focus on more critical ones.