Recovering "used up" cartilage ?

[FitnessMike]

All the supplements and methods on this page are for rebuilding fibrous cartilage.

Thanks, so how about if we can rebuild fibrous cartilage with all the supplements, and maintaining these cartilages with continuous supplementation, would that be good enough?

I really hope that loading 60g of gelatine will help with regenerating, on top of this i i got glucosamine sulfate as you recommended, hyaluronic acid, and silica from bamboo.

On top of the above, I do my red light on both knees 20min twice a day.

 

[koky]

i'm getting prp in 2 weeks - i have bone on bone
Ray suggested that I apply generous amount progesterone with a little olive oil to knee and low dose aspirin

 

[FitnessMike]

i'm getting prp in 2 weeks - i have bone on bone
Ray suggested that I apply generous amount progesterone with a little olive oil to knee and low dose aspirin

and the progesterone should aid with regenerating of the cartilage or its just for the pain?

 

[Nomane Euger]

and the progesterone should aid with regenerating of the cartilage or its just for the pain?

Mike,start ez with gelatin/collagen like 10 20 grammes and increase bit by bit,dont go straight 60 grammes you can get pretty bad results

 

[FitnessMike]

Mike,start ez with gelatin/collagen like 10 20 grammes and increase bit by bit,dont go straight 60 grammes you can get pretty bad results

I was taking 20g of collagen protein thus far, im slightly worry that it might lower cortisol too much as i am suspecting it's already suboptimal, so ill take most of it later in the evening.

Two days into glucosamine sulfate and already joints feel better, but I'm interested in regenerating cartilages, not in pain relief.

 

[Funnywhensunny]

You have to understand there are 2 types of cartilage:

- hyaline: the original cartilage we're born with, very resistant and with very few fibrous tissue, able to regenerate itself until 21 years of age

- fibrous cartilage: made by the body to repair the damaged hyaline cartilage once the body has gone above 21 years. It's not as resistant as the hyaline cartilage and wears out quickly if subject to intense effort

All the supplements and methods on this page are for rebuilding fibrous cartilage.

If you want hyaline cartilage rebuilt after 21, you need to look for a Florida doctor who patented hyaline cartilage regeneration using local growth hormone knee injections.

Can you please provide additional information regarding that Florida doctor, and/or his product. I am in Florida for a couple of months and would like to inquire... Is he using a product similar to Adaquan?

 

[burtlancast]

Can you please provide additional information regarding that Florida doctor, and/or his product. I am in Florida for a couple of months and would like to inquire... Is he using a product similar to Adaquan?

Dr Alan Dunn

 

[koky]

RP response:
“Barely any collagen” means that reducing stress can permit regeneration. I think it means that oral aspirin with generous topical progesterone would take care of it.

Maturitas. 2015 Jul;81(3):394-7.
Aspirin is associated with reduced cartilage loss in knee osteoarthritis: Data from a cohort study
Anita E Wluka 1 , Changhai Ding 2 , Yuanyuan Wang 3 , Graeme Jones 4 , Donna M Urquhart 3 , Flavia M Cicuttini 3
Objectives: Aspirin, widely used in the prevention of cardiovascular disease, in low dose, has anti-inflammatory and vasculoprotective effects: both of these processes contribute to the pathogenesis of osteoarthritis. We examined whether use of low dose aspirin affects change in knee cartilage volume in osteoarthritis.
Methods: Participants from the Melbourne osteoarthritis cohort were classified as users and non-users of aspirin, according to baseline use (≤300 mg/day). Their knees were imaged twice over 2 years. Tibial cartilage volumes were measured and change calculated.
Results: Twenty one (18%) of 117 eligible participants were aspirin users. Annual change in medial tibial cartilage volume was -43 mm(3) (95% confidence intervals (CI) -93, 10) in aspirin users and -101 mm(3) (95% CI -125, -77) in non-users (p=0.043 for difference) after adjusting for age, gender, BMI and radiographic severity. Similar results were seen for annual percentage loss (1.9% vs 5.4%, p=0.034). No difference was observed for lateral tibial cartilage change and annual change (p=0.98, 0.87 respectively)
Conclusion: Low dose aspirin use was associated with reduced medial tibial cartilage loss over 2 years in people with knee osteoarthritis. This data is hypothesis generating and clinical trials are required to confirm efficacy. If this hypothesis is confirmed, low dose aspirin may be used to reduce the progression of knee osteoarthritis.
Keywords: Aspirin; Cartilage; Cohort study; Osteoarthritis.
Copyright © 2015 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

 

[FitnessMike]

I was taking 20g of collagen protein thus far, im slightly worry that it might lower cortisol too much as i am suspecting its already suboptimal.

Two days into glucosamine sulfate and already joints feel better.

RP response:
“Barely any collagen” means that reducing stress can permit regeneration. I think it means that oral aspirin with generous topical progesterone would take care of it.

Maturitas. 2015 Jul;81(3):394-7.
Aspirin is associated with reduced cartilage loss in knee osteoarthritis: Data from a cohort study
Anita E Wluka 1 , Changhai Ding 2 , Yuanyuan Wang 3 , Graeme Jones 4 , Donna M Urquhart 3 , Flavia M Cicuttini 3
Objectives: Aspirin, widely used in the prevention of cardiovascular disease, in low dose, has anti-inflammatory and vasculoprotective effects: both of these processes contribute to the pathogenesis of osteoarthritis. We examined whether use of low dose aspirin affects change in knee cartilage volume in osteoarthritis.
Methods: Participants from the Melbourne osteoarthritis cohort were classified as users and non-users of aspirin, according to baseline use (≤300 mg/day). Their knees were imaged twice over 2 years. Tibial cartilage volumes were measured and change calculated.
Results: Twenty one (18%) of 117 eligible participants were aspirin users. Annual change in medial tibial cartilage volume was -43 mm(3) (95% confidence intervals (CI) -93, 10) in aspirin users and -101 mm(3) (95% CI -125, -77) in non-users (p=0.043 for difference) after adjusting for age, gender, BMI and radiographic severity. Similar results were seen for annual percentage loss (1.9% vs 5.4%, p=0.034). No difference was observed for lateral tibial cartilage change and annual change (p=0.98, 0.87 respectively)
Conclusion: Low dose aspirin use was associated with reduced medial tibial cartilage loss over 2 years in people with knee osteoarthritis. This data is hypothesis generating and clinical trials are required to confirm efficacy. If this hypothesis is confirmed, low dose aspirin may be used to reduce the progression of knee osteoarthritis.
Keywords: Aspirin; Cartilage; Cohort study; Osteoarthritis.
Copyright © 2015 Elsevier Ireland Ltd. All rights reserved.

Rays response to what? Can you clarify

 

[koky]

Rays response to what? Can you clarify

and the progesterone should aid with regenerating of the cartilage or its just for the pain?

 

[FitnessMike]

bump

 

[FitnessMike]

Not sure if it's the same kind of situation that might apply in your case, but I had saved this post from one forum member here who seemed to have good results with gelatin for a knee/cartilage issue: "After just afew days of upping it to 40g of gelatin per day, my left knee cartilage is almost back to 100% after years of bone on bone crunching/pain when climbing stairs, there is no more crunch and no more pain"

Their whole post:
"In terms of stats I am female, 39 and overweight since childhood and for the last couple of years had left knee joint bone on bone crunching that I only thought surgery could fix.

I have been using gelatin daily for over a month, I bought a bulk 1kg cheap brand of bovine gelatin, I was taking one heaped tablespoon (12-15g) in my hot cocoa before bed, the only benefit for the 1 month was my nails grew stronger (no more splitting/brittleness), and also with sleep, I would become immediately drowsy and drift off into a very deep sleep, the only problem was waking up was so difficult, I'd feel very groggy every morning and could barely hear my alarm. I almost gave up.

Then after doing more research just this week and landing on this forum (as of 4 days ago), I decided to up my intake to 40g a day, the first two days I got a massive migraine and almost quit but decided to push through as I wasn't sure if the migraine was from increase in gelatin or my PMS migraine.

So yesterday I went to the gym (I hadn't gone in a week), I was in shock, almost 5 years worth of daily bone on bone crunching in my left knee (I would experience pain/crunching when climbing stairs, elliptical, biking etc and I knew that only surgery would be able to solve it). After just 4 days at 40g daily gelatin (split 20g morning and 20g before bed), my knee is almost back to 100%, I almost couldn't believe it, in the past I would experience pain when doing squats and especially reverse lunges, I could never go beyond 2 sets due to pain, yesterday I did 4 sets easy!

The biggest test was climbing a flight of steps, I haven't been able to do that without my left knee crunching/pain again I was in shock, I climbed them just fine (with an ever so slight discomfort that was barely there, meaning with time I believe this should fix itself as well). I am still amazed and cannot believe the benefits in just afew days. Interestingly enough, at 40g a day (20g x 2 times a day), I do not have the grogginess feeling at night or in the morning, but I still get healthy deep sleep and able to wake up very fresh with no grogginess and able to jump out of bed with joint pains, inflammation whatsoever. I am so excited to continue at 40g daily and see what further benefits I may experience. (my initial reason for taking the gelatin was to see if it will help with regrowth of hair in my crown area as it has thinned out quite abit, so I'm still hopeful that things may change in that regard, if they do, i'll report).

(For the 40g daily gelatin I now instead make it in a jello form the night before and split it in two, to have a 20g worth slice in the morning and a 20g worth slice before bed.)

TL;DR: At 15g gelatin daily for a month, only saw improvement in nails. After just afew days of upping it to 40g of gelatin per day, my left knee cartilage is almost back to 100% after years of bone on bone crunching/pain when climbing stairs, there is no more crunch and no more pain. I am a gelatin convert for life."

Gelatin Needs To Be Used As Religiously As Sugar

Thank you both.

raypeatforum.com

That person had a follow up post after (same link as above):
"Just another quick update, today was my 2nd day at the gym (now after 5 days of gelatin), the one thing I gave up a long time ago was trying to do incline on the treadmill due to my left knee crunch/pain, I could only ever reach incline level 3 out of 15 because beyond that my knee would hurt. Today I decided to test it out and was able to reach incline level 15 with no knee crunch and no pain and was able to keep it up for 10mins. I am still amazed at what increasing gelatin intake to 40g has done in just afew days."

I really wonder if Gelative vs collagen protein would be any different in this case, i have been taking collagen protein 40g daily for many months now and cant say it made a difference, but then my metabolism ain't fixed so that might be a missing link.

 

[Dean]

I really wonder if Gelative vs collagen protein would be any different in this case, i have been taking collagen protein 40g daily for many months now and cant say it made a difference, but then my metabolism ain't fixed so that might be a missing link.

My understanding is, that it is type 2 collagen that is really only all that useful for joints. Most gelatin/collagen (beef) supps available are type 1 and 3. Fish collagen also becoming more commonly available is only type 1. Those collagens (1 and 3) are more beneficial to hair, skin and nails.

Chicken collagen is type 2. Those types of supps are fewer and farther between though. So, making a broth out of chicken feet and necks might be the best route. I do have a beef trachea cartilage supplement that is supposed to be type 2 collagen as well. I've also read some reports that the different types of collagens compete against each other for absorption which would seem to indicate the few multi collagen options (that contain types 1,2,& 3) out there may not be all that useful for joint health either.

 

[FitnessMike]

My understanding is, that it is type 2 collagen that is really only all that useful for joints. Most gelatin/collagen (beef) supps available are type 1 and 3. Fish collagen also becoming more commonly available is only type 1. Those collagens (1 and 3) are more beneficial to hair, skin and nails.

Chicken collagen is type 2. Those types of supps are fewer and farther between though. So, making a broth out of chicken feet and necks might be the best route. I do have a beef trachea cartilage supplement that is supposed to be type 2 collagen as well. I've also read some reports that the different types of collagens compete against each other for absorption which would seem to indicate the few multi collagen options (that contain types 1,2,& 3) out there may not be all that useful for joint health either.

I read about it somewhere too, that cartilages are made of type 2 collagen mostly, but then if you read the above post of the girl that sorted her bone on bone case with 40g of gelatine, hmm... i do have Jarrows typ2 2 from chickens but didn't take it yet.

have you had success with type 2 collagen?

 

[Dean]

Not yet. I haven't used it consistently or long enough to notice anything. I bought a bottle of chicken collagen caps but am only halfway through it. I've stopped taking the beef trachea cartilage supp because it is also half beef liver and I suspect I might have vit A overload issues. It's also in gelatin caps which is going to be type 1 & 3 collagen, so I don't know if that would inhibit improvements as well (assuming that competing for absorption issue is even true). I only got about halfway through the trachea supp bottle as well before stopping.

I've never really noticed gelatin or beef collagen peptides to do much for my joints either now (I've been taking 3-4 scoops of beef collagen peptides again for a few months now) or when used in past. Definitely noticeable difference in skin, hair and (to lesser extent) nails.

Actually, Vitamin D seems to give me the most relief in my knee joint pain. But, of course, that is going to do anything in terms of repair.

:edit: I should also mention that eating beef tendons (in Vietnamese pho) does make my knees feel much, much better for a week or more afterward. That would seem to substantiate that beef collagen is/can be helpful. I don't why eating those only occasionally works though and taking 3-4 scoops of beef gelatin/collagen peptides regularly doesn't seem to.

 

[FitnessMike]

Not yet. I haven't used it consistently or long enough to notice anything. I bought a bottle of chicken collagen caps but am only halfway through it. I've stopped taking the beef trachea cartilage supp because it is also half beef liver and I suspect I might have vit A overload issues. It's also in gelatin caps which is going to be type 1 & 3 collagen, so I don't know if that would inhibit improvements as well (assuming that competing for absorption issue is even true). I only got about halfway through the trachea supp bottle as well before stopping.

I've never really noticed gelatin or beef collagen peptides to do much for my joints either now (I've been taking 3-4 scoops of beef collagen peptides again for a few months now) or when used in past. Definitely noticeable difference in skin, hair and (to lesser extent) nails.

Actually, Vitamin D seems to give me the most relief in my knee joint pain. But, of course, that is going to do anything in terms of repair.

:edit: I should also mention that eating beef tendons (in Vietnamese pho) does make my knees feel much, much better for a week or more afterward. That would seem to substantiate that beef collagen is/can be helpful. I don't why eating those only occasionally works though and taking 3-4 scoops of beef gelatin/collagen peptides regularly doesn't seem to.

Hows your metabolism though? iv been pointed out that in order to regenerate cartilages your metabolism needs to be on point.

Anyways im restarting gelatine but slower this time, last time i was taking 40-50g a day and it made me too lethargic. I'll give a shot of these type 2 chicken collagen tabs too, also ordered 500g of acerola cherry as a cofactor innit.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Any idea how can i help with recovering "used up" cartilage in my knee?

I think high dose Gelatin is along the right path.

If you read Peat's article on "Gelatin, Stress, and Longevity," he talks about how Glycine and Proline are very anti-inflammatory, and that they can significantly reduce joint pain even in a few days or weeks, before any of it could be incorporated into tissues.

I think longer term, gelatin and/or glycine could help with this sort of cartilage regeneration. I'd be wary of anyone saying it isn't possible. It doesn't seem likely in most older adults, but after listening to a few interviews with Alex Leaf and Chris Masterjohn, I think it may be due to a serious lack of collagen type aminos, specifically glycine-

Are Humans (and all Vertebrates) running a chronic, lifetime Glycine Deficient?

This is sort of a follow up to the post I did about an experimental Methionine Deficient diet. https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methionine-deficient-diet-induces-rapid-weight-fat-loss-in-mice-who-ate-more-and-moved-less.45256/ I happened to be looking at the Glycine/Methionine Ratio...

raypeatforum.com

Say you're 200 pounds with 20% bodyfat. Doing some very rough calcs, that means you would be 160 pounds lean mass. If you assume that 30% is collagen protein, that's 48 pounds. If you need to regenerate, say, 20% of that, you would need almost 10 pounds of collagen. About 33% of that is glycine, so, you would need about 3.3 pounds, over and above your normal body's needs for other uses, like detoxing methionine and such. Over six months, this would mean an extra 8.5 grams of glycine alone (which would be almost 30 grams of gelatin), again, over and above normal needs, which might be 10-15 grams of glycine a day.

How many people are taking 30 grams of gelatin a day over their normal protein intake, or supplementing with glycine? And doing so for several months at a time? This could be why it seems that cartilage is "impossible" to regenerate.

 

[FitnessMike]

I think high dose Gelatin is along the right path.

If you read Peat's article on "Gelatin, Stress, and Longevity," he talks about how Glycine and Proline are very anti-inflammatory, and that they can significantly reduce joint pain even in a few days or weeks, before any of it could be incorporated into tissues.

I think longer term, gelatin and/or glycine could help with this sort of cartilage regeneration. I'd be wary of anyone saying it isn't possible. It doesn't seem likely in most older adults, but after listening to a few interviews with Alex Leaf and Chris Masterjohn, I think it may be due to a serious lack of collagen type aminos, specifically glycine-

Are Humans (and all Vertebrates) running a chronic, lifetime Glycine Deficient?

This is sort of a follow up to the post I did about an experimental Methionine Deficient diet. https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/methionine-deficient-diet-induces-rapid-weight-fat-loss-in-mice-who-ate-more-and-moved-less.45256/ I happened to be looking at the Glycine/Methionine Ratio...

raypeatforum.com

Say you're 200 pounds with 20% bodyfat. Doing some very rough calcs, that means you would be 160 pounds lean mass. If you assume that 30% is collagen protein, that's 48 pounds. If you need to regenerate, say, 20% of that, you would need almost 10 pounds of collagen. About 33% of that is glycine, so, you would need about 3.3 pounds, over and above your normal body's needs for other uses, like detoxing methionine and such. Over six months, this would mean an extra 8.5 grams of glycine alone (which would be almost 30 grams of gelatin), again, over and above normal needs, which might be 10-15 grams of glycine a day.

How many people are taking 30 grams of gelatin a day over their normal protein intake, or supplementing with glycine? And doing so for several months at a time? This could be why it seems that cartilage is "impossible" to regenerate.

Thanks Mr, that's helpful.

Just need to build up slowly the amount of the gelatine, last time i went 50g a day lowered my stress hormones too much.

I love the idea of gelatine as a healthy protein source, it's so easy to incorporate when you doing smoothies daily, and I don't even feel craving meat at all.

The only confusion I'm getting is that supposedly different types of collagen are building blocks for different organs etc.

Another thing would be to make sure that one is getting all other co-factors that are taking a place in regenerating joints/cartilages, silica/manganese, and others I don't remember.

Ill start taking this type 2 i bought a while ago but never have taken.

 

[FitnessMike]

i wonder if anyone have experiences/ heard about Injection of BPC 157

Intra-Articular Injection of BPC 157 for Multiple Types of Knee Pain - PubMed

BPC157 is a peptide with regenerative properties that can be used to relieve multiple types of knee pain.2,3 Future studies are needed to look at the different causes of knee pain with follow-up MRIs to document the peptide's benefits. BPC157 has the potential to repair tears, build cartilage...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[liam183]

glucosamine sulfate, MSM will improve things

But it's a degenerative condition without solution at the moment, saddly

This ^. Glucosamine chondroitin and MSM cured my costochondritis within about 2 weeks