Recipes For Lowering Serotonin (Serotonin Syndrome Recovery Diet)

[General Orange]

I stopped all supplements as even magnesium lowers cortisol. I get a stiff neck, headaches feel drained, sleepy and my eyes feel pressure, blurred vision, tremors etc. I only have my compounded thyroid meds.

I dk take Asprin once a day with Olive oil
Elize

Magnesium regulates cortisol, protects it from getting too high, and supports the thyroid function.
And assuming most people lack sufficient Mg, and you take thyroid, maybe your thyroid meds are too high and the added Mg gives you a reaction?

 

[Constatine]

The tightness of the neck and tinnitus are symptoms of over-excitation of glutamic acid neurotransmitter and connected nerves.
This means that there is slight deficiency in neuro-calming transmitters, I guess GABA.
Serotonin 5-HT is able to enhance glutamate-mediated excitation, indeed. This unbalance with workout can lead to nerve pain.
Therefore stopping coffee was good thing indeed, but you can maybe increase GABA with Taurine, and Lemon Balm or Passion Flower.

Caffeine can definitely increase anxiety under some situations but I do think that it is coffee that people have a hard time with an not necessarily the caffeine (there are many bioactive compounds in coffee that modulate the activity of caffeine). Caffeine can protect against glutamate induced neurotoxicity, inhibits glutamate currents, but paradoxically can cause a release of glutamate. I personally do well with tea and even caffeine pills but coffee gives me horrible anxiety and depression. If you have high serotonin issues it is likely you have a leaky blood brain barrier as well as serotonin degrades the BBB: Impairment of blood-brain barrier function by serotonin induces desynchronization of spontaneous cerebral cortical activity: experimental observati... - PubMed - NCBI, p-Chlorophenylalanine, an inhibitor of serotonin synthesis reduces blood-brain barrier permeability, cerebral blood flow, edema formation and cell ... - PubMed - NCBI, caffeine is known to protect BBB permeability. Interestingly enough serotonin administration to non IBS patients reduces gut permeability markers but to IBS patients it further increases gut permeability: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apt.12842. Increasing the permeability of both the gut and BBB will lead to endotoxin translocation to the brain which will further damage the BBB. I think many of SS long term effects are due to this positive feedback loop. Perhaps colostrum can be useful for serotonin syndrome as it can reduce endotoxin and better gut and brain permeability.

 

[General Orange]

Caffeine can definitely increase anxiety under some situations but I do think that it is coffee that people have a hard time with an not necessarily the caffeine (there are many bioactive compounds in coffee that modulate the activity of caffeine). Caffeine can protect against glutamate induced neurotoxicity, inhibits glutamate currents, but paradoxically can cause a release of glutamate. I personally do well with tea and even caffeine pills but coffee gives me horrible anxiety and depression. If you have high serotonin issues it is likely you have a leaky blood brain barrier as well as serotonin degrades the BBB: Impairment of blood-brain barrier function by serotonin induces desynchronization of spontaneous cerebral cortical activity: experimental observati... - PubMed - NCBI, p-Chlorophenylalanine, an inhibitor of serotonin synthesis reduces blood-brain barrier permeability, cerebral blood flow, edema formation and cell ... - PubMed - NCBI, caffeine is known to protect BBB permeability. Interestingly enough serotonin administration to non IBS patients reduces gut permeability markers but to IBS patients it further increases gut permeability: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apt.12842. Increasing the permeability of both the gut and BBB will lead to endotoxin translocation to the brain which will further damage the BBB. I think many of SS long term effects are due to this positive feedback loop. Perhaps colostrum can be useful for serotonin syndrome as it can reduce endotoxin and better gut and brain permeability.

I think coffee stimulates your dopamine too high level, and tea does not do this because the L-theanine protects against this excess dopamine. Probably your dopamine already is high enough? have you tried to take coffee with L-theanine?

Indeed fixing BBB is important, but too much caffeine is no good for IBS, if it decreases GABA in the gut, and blocks adenosine there, it will slow down the healing of the inflamed gut.

Centella Asiatica is nice coz it convert glutamine into GABA in the brain and also can protect against glutamate induced cell death.
... is neuroprotective and effective in decreasing blood-brain barrier permeability as well as reduction in mitochondrial damage. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359802/

I think that serotonin in the inflamed gut is getting blocked by substance P or something that also acts as an neurotransmitter to repair the gut and serotonins modulating function is altered by it, not contributing in healing but signaling to make more Substance P, and is stuck in a viscous cycle.
But you can deplete Substance P with capsaicin from chilli peppers, and in turn that will tame serotonin.
Then, indeed you can try to fix its permeability.

 

[General Orange]

Wat can we deduce from this:
Bone broth looks like a easy digestible food and a good way to increase glycine from gelatin, but the high glutamate in long cooked broth is a danger to people who're suffering form a more permeable Blood-Brain Barrier caused by excessive serotonin from the inflamed gut.
The glutamate will go through the BBB, increasing excitation of glutamine neurons, causing headaches.

I suppose that L-theanine, that is similar to L-glutamate and competes for its receptor, will reducing the uptake of glutamate from the bone broth and have calming action.

So taking L-theanine with bone broth should reduce the headaches in case of a permeable BBB.
-Unless you belong to the category of people who is having problems converting glutamate to GABA, this could lead to excess glutamate rather than GABA. That is, deficient in B6 or magnesium or zinc (Pyroluria)

Or taking Gotu Kola (Centella Asiatica) with bone broth will increase the conversion of glutamate into GABA, protecting against over-excitation and also giving a calming action.

Similar compounds as glutamate:

• Aspartate (can also be converted into glutamate)
• Aspartame
• Aspartic acid
• Glutamate
• Glutamic acid
• Glutamine
• Monosodium glutamate (MSG)
• Cysteine (But not n-acetyl-cysteine. However, does contain sulfur and too much sulfur can be counterproductive as well, so should be used mindfully.)
• Homocysteine
  

"Therefore, each of these can bind with glutamate receptors, which also results in excessive stimulation and contributes to the imbalance in GABA and glutamate and the wide array of symptoms that are generated."

-Seems that dairy is actually not so helpful in these cases ...?
---
"To complicate things further, glutamate has the ability to bind with six other receptors in the brain, like the NMDA receptor, which assists in delivering calcium to the cell and plays a vital role in memory function and synaptic plasticity. Calcium is used by glutamate as the agent that actually inflicts the harm on the cell. So, if there is an excess of calcium in the body for any reason, it too will contribute to the GABA and glutamate imbalance."

"Glutamate and calcium together cause ongoing firing of the neurons, which triggers the release of inflammatory mediators, which leads to more influx of calcium. It becomes a vicious cycle that results in neural inflammation and cell death. Glutamate has been described as the gun, while calcium should be seen as the bullet, says Dr. Mark Neveu, a former president of the National Foundation of Alternative Medicine. It’s important to note that activation of the NMDA receptor also involves glycine, D-serine or D-alanine, which means either one of these could allow for more influx of calcium as well."
---?

"The amino acid taurine increases the GAD enzyme and consequently GABA levels. Additionally, taurine doubles as an inhibitory neurotransmitter and can bind directly to GABA receptors, so it can help provide balance naturally in that manner as well."

"Additionally, Candida produces a toxin called beta-alanine that competes with taurine for reabsorption in the kidney, and causes taurine to be wasted in the kidneys and excreted through the urine and beta alanine is absorbed instead. Therefore, taurine levels may be insufficient, which can contribute to less GABA activity. Not only that, taurine can combine with magnesium to form magnesium taurate and the two of them may be eliminated together, which can lead to magnesium deficiency. Insufficient levels of magnesium are going to result in excessive levels of calcium, which as we established earlier, will increase glutamate firing."
How to Increase GABA and Balance Glutamate

 

[General Orange]

Yes that is right, B6 is a coenzyme needed for many conversions of amines.
No B3 or Nicotinamide will increase serotonine synthesis. you can find more info here

Sorry, I retract what I said about Nicotinamide, the link I gave here is wrong, it is for niacin, not niacinamide.

Ray Peat says the following:
"“The amino acid theanine, found in tea, has been reported to decrease the amount of serotonin in the brain, probably by decreasing its synthesis and increasing its degradation. This seems to be the opposite of the processes in hibernation. Progesterone, thyroid, and niacinamide (not nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate) are other safe substances that help to reduce serotonin formation, and/or accelerate its elimination. (Niacinamide seems to increase serotonin uptake.)”

Ray Peat, PhD on Aspirin – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Excess nicotinamide increases plasma serotonin and histamine levels.
"Although high niacin (nicotinic acid and nicotinamide) intake, which is very common nowadays, is known to deplete the body's methyl-group pool, its effect on monoamine-neurotransmitter degradation is not well understood. The aim of this article was to investigate the effect of excess nicotinamide on the levels of plasma serotonin and histamine in healthy subjects."
"The results showed that the plasma N(1)-methylnicotinamide level and the urinary excretion of 2-Py significantly increased after oral loading with 100 mg nicotinamide, which was accompanied with a decrease in the methyl-group donor betaine. Compared with those before nicotinamide load, five-hour postload plasma serotonin and histamine levels significantly increased."

 

[General Orange]

Thanks for that, I did wake up on morning two feeling like I was trying to get sick, then second day of taking them, I got the headache, and brain zap I have heard people mention, but that never happened to me when I was at my worst, so I stopped those items today, and only took the additional vitamin E, and I am feeling much better again... Supplements just don't seem to agree with me at all (had a horrible glutamine reaction when I tried BCAAs early on), but vitamins seem to be OK... I did stop the B6 today too, because it says on the bottle that it can help raise serotonin, so that concerned me, because I don't seem to need help in that category.

I am also a little confused about Serotonin Syndrome... Seems to be that there are different levels of it or something, or is there a difference between SS and Serotonin Toxicity? I've heard people say SS means your receptors are fried or something so your brain isn't producing serotonin anymore, and I have seen people suggesting to others that they should take 5-htp to help their levels regulate, but I believe 5-htp is part of the problem that landed me in this situation, and I would not ever take that stuff again... Hell I didn't even mean to take it to begin with, it was an additive in a supplement I was taking to help with sleep, and here I am now, wishing I just had my plain old insomnia back LOL

I guess the silver lining here is that I am actually learning about nutrition now, and seeing how important it is, and how little I've payed attention to it all these years.

"...Supplements just don't seem to agree with me at all (had a horrible glutamine reaction when I tried BCAAs early on)."
-This is not correct, BCAA's deplete tryptophan, and reduces your serotonin synthesis.

"...I did stop the B6 today too, because it says on the bottle that it can help raise serotonin, so that concerned me, because I don't seem to need help in that category."
- you need the B6 to support the tryptophan converting into serotonin.

You are wrong about the serotonin precursor 5-HTP, you need it to increase your serotonin, because after the use of the unknown serotonin booster, which disturbed the gut-brain connection in combination with your gut issues even further and that affected your mood and eventually depleted your serotonin in the brain.

-Now, I suppose that after taking the L-theanine, which decrease serotonin further, you experienced that brain zap.
Which means that your tryptophan intake and serotonin synthesis is way too low.

You need to increase serotonin by the following methods:

1. increase bright light exposure
2. Eat carbohydrates without protein
3. Do exercise
4. supplement niacin, vitamin b3, b6

How to increase serotonin in the human brain without drugs
"A large body of evidence supports the idea that exercise, including exercise to fatigue, is associated with an increase in plasma tryptophan and a decrease in the plasma level of the branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) leucine, isoleucine and valine (see64,65 for reviews)."

"The BCAAs inhibit tryptophan transport into the brain.66"

"In humans, there is certainly an interaction between bright light and the serotonin system. The mood-lowering effect of acute tryptophan depletion in healthy women is completely blocked by carrying out the study in bright light (3000 lux) instead of dim light.49"

"Although purified tryptophan increases brain serotonin, foods containing tryptophan do not.71 This is because tryptophan is transported into the brain by a transport system that is active toward all the large neutral amino acids and tryptophan is the least abundant amino acid in protein. There is competition between the various amino acids for the transport system, so after the ingestion of a meal containing protein, the rise in the plasma level of the other large neutral amino acids will prevent the rise in plasma tryptophan from increasing brain tryptophan."

"Pellagra is a disorder caused by niacin deficiency, usually owing to poverty and a diet relying heavily on corn (maize), which has a low level of niacin and its precursor tryptophan. Cultures in the Americas that relied greatly on corn used alkali during its processing (e.g., boiling the corn in lime when making tortillas). This enhanced the nutritional quality of the corn by increasing the bioavailability of both niacin and tryptophan, a practice that prevented pellagra.75"

 

[Constatine]

"...Supplements just don't seem to agree with me at all (had a horrible glutamine reaction when I tried BCAAs early on)."
-This is not correct, BCAA's deplete tryptophan, and reduces your serotonin synthesis.

"...I did stop the B6 today too, because it says on the bottle that it can help raise serotonin, so that concerned me, because I don't seem to need help in that category."
- you need the B6 to support the tryptophan converting into serotonin.

You are wrong about the serotonin precursor 5-HTP, you need it to increase your serotonin, because after the use of the unknown serotonin booster, which disturbed the gut-brain connection in combination with your gut issues even further and that affected your mood and eventually depleted your serotonin in the brain.

-Now, I suppose that after taking the L-theanine, which decrease serotonin further, you experienced that brain zap.
Which means that your tryptophan intake and serotonin synthesis is way too low.

You need to increase serotonin by the following methods:

1. increase bright light exposure
2. Eat carbohydrates without protein
3. Do exercise
4. supplement niacin, vitamin b3, b6

How to increase serotonin in the human brain without drugs
"A large body of evidence supports the idea that exercise, including exercise to fatigue, is associated with an increase in plasma tryptophan and a decrease in the plasma level of the branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) leucine, isoleucine and valine (see64,65 for reviews)."

"The BCAAs inhibit tryptophan transport into the brain.66"

"In humans, there is certainly an interaction between bright light and the serotonin system. The mood-lowering effect of acute tryptophan depletion in healthy women is completely blocked by carrying out the study in bright light (3000 lux) instead of dim light.49"

"Although purified tryptophan increases brain serotonin, foods containing tryptophan do not.71 This is because tryptophan is transported into the brain by a transport system that is active toward all the large neutral amino acids and tryptophan is the least abundant amino acid in protein. There is competition between the various amino acids for the transport system, so after the ingestion of a meal containing protein, the rise in the plasma level of the other large neutral amino acids will prevent the rise in plasma tryptophan from increasing brain tryptophan."

"Pellagra is a disorder caused by niacin deficiency, usually owing to poverty and a diet relying heavily on corn (maize), which has a low level of niacin and its precursor tryptophan. Cultures in the Americas that relied greatly on corn used alkali during its processing (e.g., boiling the corn in lime when making tortillas). This enhanced the nutritional quality of the corn by increasing the bioavailability of both niacin and tryptophan, a practice that prevented pellagra.75"

Why are you recommending he increase serotonin? Those methods you listed are fine (idk about 4) but his goal should definitely not be to raise serotonin.

 

[General Orange]

I'm a Designer/Developer, so I do the same... You're in like company with me .

And, honestly, one of the serotonin boosters, I was taking (the 5-htp), was an additive in a supplement I was taking to help me sleep, I wasn't intentionally taking it, and didn't know what it was or what it did, so I don't even know exactly how long I was taking it (but for a few months at least). Al I can tell you is that from now on, I will be tapping, meditating, using light therapy, or whatever damn natural thing I can come up with, for dealing with insomnia or sleep issues. I had no idea it was possible to mess myself up that bad with an over the counter supplement, that I assumed would be better regulated. My high carb lifestyle didn't help either. lots of things are easy to see looking back, with what I know now (hindsight, what can you do, other than stop being dumb moving forward).

Thanks again... Super helpful... Good news is when anything goes sideways now, I recover very fast... In the beginning, it would take days to recover from a misstep, but after yesterday I just skipped everything but the vitamin E this morning and felt fine all day today.

The sleep issues can be related to low serotonin. Melatonin that makes you sleepy in the evening after sundown, is made from Serotonin. Low serotonin = bad sleep.
But 5-HTP can increase serotonin also too much in the gut and increase your gut problems

 

[General Orange]

Why are you recommending he increase serotonin? Those methods you listed are fine (idk about 4) but his goal should definitely not be to raise serotonin.

Because his reactions indicate low levels of serotonin in the brain. not high.
Somewhere along the pathway to convert tryptophan in serotonin, or niacin, there are problems.

 

[General Orange]

also if there is not enough vitamin b3, tryptophan wil convert to kyruninine, and decrease serotonin synthesis, giving anxiety symptoms

 

[General Orange]

 

[General Orange]

2 grams of niacinamide can increase serotonin synthesis and relieve anxiety disorders better then many other supplements.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0c55/ebbffdc0832e531976a6f665c60831d58202.pdf

 

[General Orange]

"Serotonin Synthesis
Another biochemical reason for niaci-
namide’s anxiolytic effects might have to do
with the vital role that it has upon the syn-
thesis of serotonin. For example, in a patient
with anorexia nervosa an insufficient sup-
ply of vitamin B3
or protein resulted in re-
duced urinary levels of the serotonin break-
down product, 5-hydroxy-indolacetic acid
(5-HIAA).
32
The authors of this report pos-
tulated that a deficiency of vitamin B
3
re-duced the feedback inhibition upon the
kynurenine pathway, resulting in more tryp-
tophan being diverted to the kynurenine
pathway, making less substrate available for
the synthesis of serotonin. By contrast, the
use of pharmacological doses of vitamin B3
can increase the production of serotonin.
33
In a rat study, the administration of 20 mg
of niacin resulted in increased levels of 5-
HIAA and decreased levels of xanthurenic
acid via the kynurenine pathway.
34
Ta k i n g
pharmacological doses of niacinamide (or
any other form of vitamin B3
) would increase the production of serotonin, by diverting
more tryptophan to become substrate for
serotonin synthesis. Niacinamide’s therapeu-
tic ability to increase serotonin production
might explain why it was successful in re-
ducing the anxiety symptoms of the three
patients.

 

[General Orange]

Why are you recommending he increase serotonin? Those methods you listed are fine (idk about 4) but his goal should definitely not be to raise serotonin.

You seem to think that increasing serotonin is a bad thing. But the context is important.
You want to prevent building up serotonin in the body, by elimination via the brain or liver.
-meaning you can reduce serotonin(in the body), by increasing it's uptake (via the brain), and increase its degradation in to metabolites, just as Peat says. But this is misinterpreted a lot.

"...Progesterone, thyroid, and niacinamide (not nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate) are other safe substances that help to reduce serotonin formation (in the body), and/or accelerate its elimination (via the brain or the liver). (Niacinamide seems to increase serotonin uptake (in the brain).)” -Raymond Peat

 

[Constatine]

Because his reactions indicate low levels of serotonin in the brain. not high.
Somewhere along the pathway to convert tryptophan in serotonin, or niacin, there are problems.

Which reactions? He states that 5-htp caused problems for him. Low serotonin does not cause anxiety in a similar fashion to low GABA. Serotonin increases avoidance behaviors and behavioral inhibition as well as learned helplessness. This can make people grow accustomed to negative stimuli but serotonin acts to increase anxiety as well as decrease it based on context: Role of serotonin in zebrafish (Danio rerio) anxiety: relationship with serotonin levels and effect of buspirone, WAY 100635, SB 224289, fluoxetine... - PubMed - NCBI. The sensory and behavioral inhibitions after traumatic events is an example of how serotonin can lower anxiety. Serotonin has a very complex relationship with fear states and anxiety which is likely due to sensory and memory inhibition. I found this paper very interesting as it illustrates the extent of the paradoxical effect: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7bc0/b20efaa9902c665904549e90a03d7cc5f398.pdf. Due to the paradoxical effect I think other hints such as sense of smell would indicate whether a person has high or low serotonin, with a strong sense of smell indicating low serotonin and a poor sense of smell indicating high: Serotonergic modulation of odor input to the mammalian olfactory bulb. - PubMed - NCBI.

 

[General Orange]

Read post #46 carefully please.

 

[Constatine]

You seem to think that increasing serotonin is a bad thing. But the context is important.
You want to prevent building up serotonin in the body, by elimination via the brain or liver.
-meaning you can reduce serotonin(in the body), by increasing it's uptake (via the brain), and increase its degradation in to metabolites, just as Peat says. But this is misinterpreted a lot.

"...Progesterone, thyroid, and niacinamide (not nicotinic acid or inositol hexanicotinate) are other safe substances that help to reduce serotonin formation (in the body), and/or accelerate its elimination (via the brain or the liver). (Niacinamide seems to increase serotonin uptake (in the brain).)” -Raymond Peat

I agree context is important and higher serotonin in certain brain regions is not necessarily bad. Sunlight is an example of something that can increase serotonin but in a healthy way. Serotonin is undoubtedly a stress hormone and is dangerous to increase via any method that the body does not have absolute control over (such as foods or supplementation). My opinion is actually more similar to yours than is apparent though I disagree with enhancing serotonin synthesis in the brain.

 

[Jerimy Brown]

Yeah, after a period of time of taking 5-htp is when the panic set in, and all the Serotonin Syndrome symptoms started, and they continued getting worse until I stopped 5-htp. Since stopping the 5-htp, and starting my high protein diet I am returning to normal, my sleep patterns are normalizing, etc. I won't be taking 5-htp again. I am finally starting to see light at the end of this tunnel, not jumping back on the train that got me here in the first place. Also to be clear, I am not experiencing panic or anxiety anymore, since stopping the 5-htp about 2 months ago. My gut is getting healthier all the time, and I am able to eat a lot more foods, re-introducing eggs, and goats milk slowly, my appetite has returned, I am feeling happy again, etc. At this point, I am most comfortable doing most of this with diet.

 

[General Orange]

Yeah, after a period of time of taking 5-htp is when the panic set in, and all the Serotonin Syndrome symptoms started, and they continued getting worse until I stopped 5-htp. Since stopping the 5-htp, and starting my high protein diet I am returning to normal, my sleep patterns are normalizing, etc. I won't be taking 5-htp again. I am finally starting to see light at the end of this tunnel, not jumping back on the train that got me here in the first place. Also to be clear, I am not experiencing panic or anxiety anymore, since stopping the 5-htp about 2 months ago.

5-htp in combination with an MAO-I causes serotonin syndrome. probably the unknown booster was one.

 

[Jerimy Brown]

I was accidentally taking the 5-htp do to poor labeling, and my just not knowing what it was. I was also taking CBD oil for a back injury (without knowing that boosts serotonin), I was also day fasting, cycling at least an hour every day, and eating a pretty high carb diet at the time... I believe it was the combination of all those things that created this issues for me, because everything is returning to normal since stopping those things . I have also since read that long term starvation can cause an elevation in serotonin, and the day fasting I was doing, I had been doing for about 3 months, so it's possible my body thought it was starving?

Anyway, point being, I believe it was a perfect storm of lifestyle and dietary choices, combined with the serotonin boosting items I was consuming without knowing they could be potentially dangerous. My doctor also seems to believe that I may just be very sensitive to serotonin as well, because he said he wouldn't have necessarily expressed concern over any of these things, but they certainly messed me up good.

Also, I have gone my entire life without having ever experienced any such thing before, and the only two items, that I had never introduced into my world before was the 5-htp, and CBD oil... So those things obviously don't mix well in me.