Reality May Be Not Random After All

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,799
Location
USA / Europe
This may appeal mostly to the people with interest in physics, but I decided to post it anyways.
As some of you may have noticed, Ray is not a big fan of current physics and the models it provides of the world. He is particularly critical of quantum mechanics and its insistence of the inherent "randomness" of reality. I have been fascinated by physics from very early age and strongly dislike quantum physics as well. Most of my dislike comes from the fact that there seem to be a number of alternative explanations of famous quantum physics experiments that do not involve "randomness", spooky action at a distance (as Einstein called it), instantaneous pilot wave collapse, etc. However, those experiments are purposefully ignored and, similar to a discussion with a doctor, an argument over them always seems to degenerate to an authoritarian lecturing about status replete with statements of the sort "trust me, I know".
About a decade ago I started reading on a very promising alternative to quantum mechanics known as Bohmian mechanics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie ... ohm_theory

It provides the same predictions as the ones given by quantum mechanics but the theory is deterministic and inherently non-local.

"...De Broglie–Bohm theory is a theory that applies primarily to the whole universe. That is, there is a single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles in the universe according to the guiding equation. Theoretically, the motion of one particle depends on the positions of all of the other particles in the universe."

What's more, it seems to describe reality as a "flow" or "fluid" possessing a kind of "implicate order" (as put by David Bohm himself) - i.e. a universal consciousness of sorts, very similar to the ideas of Ray and William Blake, where the entire world can be considered "alive". David Bohm was influenced by the ideas of the ancient philosopher Heraclitus, who said that everything "flows" and the world is in a constant state of change - i.e. pretty much like a stream or river. In fact, that's where the famous expression "you can't step twice in the same stream" comes from. Ray has written many times about the concept of perpetual change (referring to Aristotle and Heraclitus as well) and the threat that idea poses to the establishment focused on immutable laws and ideas. Bohm was often mocked for his unorthodox views and lifestyle, but if you read about his work and views you will be very much reminded of Peat. Bohm wrote a number of books on the subject of universal consciousness and I have attached some of them to this post.
For various historical AND definitely authoritarian reasons, Bohmian mechanics has been ignored in the academia and today most younger physicist (under 40 years old) have not heard of it. I was pleasantly surprised to see that a number of recent experiments have shown that Bohmian mechanics may indeed be the correct set of ideas describing reality rather than the "Copenhagen interpretation" known nowadays as quantum mechanics. Here is an article that discusses the recent experiments.

http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/ ... m-reality/

Also, see attached books for more info on David Bohm, his theory, and other ideas. Of the 3 attached here I would recommend most "Wholeness and The Implicate Order" but I think all 3 are worth a read.
 

Attachments

  • Bohm David - David Pratt - David Bohm and the Implicate Order.pdf
    103.6 KB · Views: 136
  • Bohm David - Causality And Chance In Modern Physics (Routledge, 1957)(IN).pdf
    1.8 MB · Views: 93
  • Bohm David -Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Routledge Classics) 0415289785.pdf
    834.6 KB · Views: 110

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
Very interesting, haidut.
I'll check it out.

How do you feel about String Theory?
It has a certain elegance (to this physics imbecile). :P
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,799
Location
USA / Europe
narouz said:
Very interesting, haidut.
I'll check it out.

How do you feel about String Theory?
It has a certain elegance (to this physics imbecile). :P

I like the ideas behind String Theory, but from what I understand about it, given our current state of technology much of its predictions are untestable at the moment. Much of the problems of modern physics lie in the seemingly incompatible macro and micro scales. Also, exotic things like dark matter and dark energy, which I think String Theory was specifically invented to account for.
If I had the luxury of picking, I kinda like a simpler version of physics embodied in what used to be known as Stochastic Electrodynamics (SE).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics

David Bohm said that it was exactly SE that he used as a guiding model to develop his "alternative" version of quantum mechanics. Also, believe it or not, NASA is heavily invested in SE since it suggests a way of tapping infinite energy from space-time itself.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... s-the-zer/
 

jaa

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Messages
1,035
narouz,

string theory is like proposing God as the mechanism behind the forces of the universe. There are so many configurations that can model just about anything and are untestable. I'm sure it's neat for mathematical wizards, but I doubt it will ever become a practical theory.

haidut,

I've never heard of Bohmian Mechanics, but it does sound much more appealing to my world view than quantum mechanics. Thanks for posting!

"For various historical AND definitely authoritarian reasons, Bohmian mechanics has been ignored in the academia and today most younger physicist (under 40 years old) have not heard of it. "

From a quick look online, the consensus seems to be that even if Bohmian Mechanics is a closer to reality model of the universe, it does not simplify quantum mechanical equations, and in some cases complicates them. It also does not advance theoretical knowledge. That seems to be the driving force behind it's lack of adoption.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,799
Location
USA / Europe
jaa said:
narouz,

string theory is like proposing God as the mechanism behind the forces of the universe. There are so many configurations that can model just about anything and are untestable. I'm sure it's neat for mathematical wizards, but I doubt it will ever become a practical theory.

haidut,

I've never heard of Bohmian Mechanics, but it does sound much more appealing to my world view than quantum mechanics. Thanks for posting!

"For various historical AND definitely authoritarian reasons, Bohmian mechanics has been ignored in the academia and today most younger physicist (under 40 years old) have not heard of it. "

From a quick look online, the consensus seems to be that even if Bohmian Mechanics is a closer to reality model of the universe, it does not simplify quantum mechanical equations, and in some cases complicates them. It also does not advance theoretical knowledge. That seems to be the driving force behind it's lack of adoption.

Well, both of the claims against Bohmian mechanics found online seem to be rather arbitrary. Notice that nobody claims it is wrong, just that it "complicates" things or does not "advance" theoretical knowledge. What it does do is suggest that nature is teleological, which obviously "complicates" things a lot for people insisting on random behavior. Also, it took the same equations quantum mechanics uses and added one more so-called Guiding Equation to account for the configuration of the pilot wave when unobserved. So, I guess if it uses known quantum mechanics as a basis that would be considered "not advancing" theoretical knowledge. If you read the Wikipedia page on Bohmian mechanics you will see that virtually all criticisms turned out to be wrong or misguided.
Regardless, it is nice to see that people are rekindling interest in it.
 

jaa

Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Messages
1,035
I didn't mean to suggest it was wrong, I just wanted to provided an explanation for why physicists don't pay much attention to it.

Thanks for the wiki heads up - I couldn't find that during my initial search.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
Also worth considering is the Everett-Wheeler model or Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) which says that even if there is a single wave and particle (no randomness), it does not collapse: every possible event produces it's own outcome and becomes its own reality/universe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-wo ... rpretation

[BBvideo 560,340:cutoj970]http://youtu.be/UQyP08ZSBRk[/BBvideo]


As for "universal consciousness"or the idea that the world has its own mind and is alive, ebbing and flowing and actually being a type of force or source of something, god how patently absurd. If you believe this then maybe you don't really need any kind of physics. There is no collective hive mind/reality, no God up in the sky watching over us, no Gaia thingie, and probably no noosphere either. The world isn't "alive" because it isn't a person; only an individualized presence of the Atman in human form is capable of consciousness.

Peats insistence that change (which is an illusion) is the only constant and must be valued over the "authoritarian" forms is also absurd because MWI (possibly) proves it has nothing to do with it. You remain the same person across millions of years and thousands of embodiments (which are all existing simultaneously in their own respective universes). This is an irrefutable fact.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,370
Sounds a bit like the Penrose interpretation. Langan's CTMU redraws the universe coherently and also concludes that a global wave function exists. Some dudes recently used string theory to map the lattice inside particles, the theory definitely is alive and quite open minded people around it.

10338565_10202984356548068_3544921418412731902_o.jpg


I'm sorry, do you really think your brain is inherently different from the space around it? Is this the 1800's?
 

bodacious

Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
160
Location
UK
I haven't had a chance to give this a good read yet, but the title caught my eye.

Have you heard much about Paul Kammerer?
He did some theoretical work on Seriality

Kammerer's other passion was collecting coincidences. He published a book with the title Das Gesetz der Serie (The Law of the Series; never translated into English) in which he recounted some 100 anecdotes of coincidences that had led him to formulate his theory of Seriality.

He postulated that all events are connected by waves of seriality. These unknown forces would cause what we would perceive as just the peaks, or groupings and coincidences. Kammerer was known, for example, to make notes in public parks of what numbers of people were passing by, how many carried umbrellas etc. Albert Einstein called the idea of Seriality "interesting, and by no means absurd",[17] while Carl Jung drew upon Kammerer's work in his essay Synchronicity. Koestler reported that, when researching for his biography about Kammerer, he himself was subjected to "a meteor shower" of coincidences - as if Kammerer's ghost were grinning down at him saying, "I told you so!"
Source: Paul Kammerer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@haidut If you haven't already read about Kammerer and the midwife toads, I recommend you do. You might find it interesting (both the "mainstream" and the deeper story)
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,799
Location
USA / Europe
I haven't had a chance to give this a good read yet, but the title caught my eye.

Have you heard much about Paul Kammerer?
He did some theoretical work on Seriality


Source: Paul Kammerer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@haidut If you haven't already read about Kammerer and the midwife toads, I recommend you do. You might find it interesting (both the "mainstream" and the deeper story)

Oh wow, that is pretty interesting! I have myself wondered about coincidences and even looked into the etymology of the word. Note, that nothing in the word itself implies chance/luck. It simply means co-occurrence, when events are...entangled. There is a very old folk tradition on the Balkans that says coincidences occur when your mind returns to its childhood state. Studies have shown correlation between noticing coincidences and dopaminergic function. Fascinating indeed! Thanks for sharing this.
 

Hugh Johnson

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2014
Messages
2,649
Location
The Sultanate of Portugal
As for "universal consciousness"or the idea that the world has its own mind and is alive, ebbing and flowing and actually being a type of force or source of something, god how patently absurd. If you believe this then maybe you don't really need any kind of physics. There is no collective hive mind/reality, no God up in the sky watching over us, no Gaia thingie, and probably no noosphere either. The world isn't "alive" because it isn't a person; only an individualized presence of the Atman in human form is capable of consciousness.

Peats insistence that change (which is an illusion) is the only constant and must be valued over the "authoritarian" forms is also absurd because MWI (possibly) proves it has nothing to do with it. You remain the same person across millions of years and thousands of embodiments (which are all existing simultaneously in their own respective universes). This is an irrefutable fact.
Please cite evidence for your "irrefutable facts." Even a single citation.
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
This may appeal mostly to the people with interest in physics, but I decided to post it anyways.
As some of you may have noticed, Ray is not a big fan of current physics and the models it provides of the world. He is particularly critical of quantum mechanics and its insistence of the inherent "randomness" of reality. I have been fascinated by physics from very early age and strongly dislike quantum physics as well. Most of my dislike comes from the fact that there seem to be a number of alternative explanations of famous quantum physics experiments that do not involve "randomness", spooky action at a distance (as Einstein called it), instantaneous pilot wave collapse, etc. However, those experiments are purposefully ignored and, similar to a discussion with a doctor, an argument over them always seems to degenerate to an authoritarian lecturing about status replete with statements of the sort "trust me, I know".
About a decade ago I started reading on a very promising alternative to quantum mechanics known as Bohmian mechanics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Broglie ... ohm_theory

It provides the same predictions as the ones given by quantum mechanics but the theory is deterministic and inherently non-local.

"...De Broglie–Bohm theory is a theory that applies primarily to the whole universe. That is, there is a single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles in the universe according to the guiding equation. Theoretically, the motion of one particle depends on the positions of all of the other particles in the universe."

What's more, it seems to describe reality as a "flow" or "fluid" possessing a kind of "implicate order" (as put by David Bohm himself) - i.e. a universal consciousness of sorts, very similar to the ideas of Ray and William Blake, where the entire world can be considered "alive". David Bohm was influenced by the ideas of the ancient philosopher Heraclitus, who said that everything "flows" and the world is in a constant state of change - i.e. pretty much like a stream or river. In fact, that's where the famous expression "you can't step twice in the same stream" comes from. Ray has written many times about the concept of perpetual change (referring to Aristotle and Heraclitus as well) and the threat that idea poses to the establishment focused on immutable laws and ideas. Bohm was often mocked for his unorthodox views and lifestyle, but if you read about his work and views you will be very much reminded of Peat. Bohm wrote a number of books on the subject of universal consciousness and I have attached some of them to this post.
For various historical AND definitely authoritarian reasons, Bohmian mechanics has been ignored in the academia and today most younger physicist (under 40 years old) have not heard of it. I was pleasantly surprised to see that a number of recent experiments have shown that Bohmian mechanics may indeed be the correct set of ideas describing reality rather than the "Copenhagen interpretation" known nowadays as quantum mechanics. Here is an article that discusses the recent experiments.

http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/ ... m-reality/

Also, see attached books for more info on David Bohm, his theory, and other ideas. Of the 3 attached here I would recommend most "Wholeness and The Implicate Order" but I think all 3 are worth a read.

I think the "randomness" idea of the universe suits very well to the ruling classes. In a deep conscious level it generates learned helplessnes and stress because :
- You think you are here because of an accident a random action. The universe doesn't give a ***t if you are here or not. It's random. Replaceable. An accident.
- You lack sense and purpose. What purpose can be if you are random ?
- It creates disorganization and disorder inside and outside the individual.

I suspect ruling classes do not believe that not matter what they say.

But since the beginning philosophers knew that there's an order in the cosmos. Pitagorics. Everything is created because it has to be created. That there's a purpose on every single life form. In every life. I think it's the old religious motto "You're the loved one". Because you are needed. You are not an accident.

No wonder people is extremely depressed these days.

By the way haidut I once in an LSD trip saw the origin of the universe was a woman having a continuous orgasm and the orgasm was generating energy waves that were creating the rest of the things. I don't know if that is the "single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles".

Anyway haidut I really recommned you to dig into Pitagoric stuff because they already knew all of that. You don't have to wait for pubmed to publish the studies. It's already been done.

Thanks for sharing it anyway and eliciting these kind of discussions!

Cheers
 

Makrosky

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2014
Messages
3,982
Sounds a bit like the Penrose interpretation. Langan's CTMU redraws the universe coherently and also concludes that a global wave function exists. Some dudes recently used string theory to map the lattice inside particles, the theory definitely is alive and quite open minded people around it.

10338565_10202984356548068_3544921418412731902_o.jpg


I'm sorry, do you really think your brain is inherently different from the space around it? Is this the 1800's?
What is that picture you posted ? Looks very similar to a DMT trip.
 
OP
haidut

haidut

Member
Forum Supporter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
19,799
Location
USA / Europe
I think the "randomness" idea of the universe suits very well to the ruling classes. In a deep conscious level it generates learned helplessnes and stress because :
- You think you are here because of an accident a random action. The universe doesn't give a ***t if you are here or not. It's random. Replaceable. An accident.
- You lack sense and purpose. What purpose can be if you are random ?
- It creates disorganization and disorder inside and outside the individual.

I suspect ruling classes do not believe that not matter what they say.

But since the beginning philosophers knew that there's an order in the cosmos. Pitagorics. Everything is created because it has to be created. That there's a purpose on every single life form. In every life. I think it's the old religious motto "You're the loved one". Because you are needed. You are not an accident.

No wonder people is extremely depressed these days.

By the way haidut I once in an LSD trip saw the origin of the universe was a woman having a continuous orgasm and the orgasm was generating energy waves that were creating the rest of the things. I don't know if that is the "single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles".

Anyway haidut I really recommned you to dig into Pitagoric stuff because they already knew all of that. You don't have to wait for pubmed to publish the studies. It's already been done.

Thanks for sharing it anyway and eliciting these kind of discussions!

Cheers

I think this is a very poetic way of describing the origins of the universe - an intense female orgasm. It contains so many Peatrian elements - i.e. female (progesterone) giving symbolic birth (duh) to reality in a throng of dopaminergic delirium. I think Peat should be contacted and asked to paint this with the title "Genesis". I know he is very fond of drawing naked women. God bless his soul :):
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
I remember hearing somewhere (can't remember exactly where, and maybe it was originally from Bohm) that the whole idea of randomness and chaos theory was pretty much nonsense. The universe isn't really becoming disordered or chaotic, but it's more like the natural order is much more complicated than humans initially perceive, or than how we would like things to be. As an example, think of a Rubik's cube. In it's solved state, it's perfectly "ordered," and we can clearly see that. But if you jumble it up, while we might see it as "jumbled," it's still very much ordered, but just a more complex sort of ordering than humans can easily perceive. That's also why anyone who knows the algorithims can solve the Rubik's cube in about 2 minutes or so, and some with practice can solve it in less than 20 seconds, from any starting combination.

Also, no matter how much you "jumble" a standard 3x3 Rubik's cube, the center colors will never change in relation to the other center colors. Unless you cheat and pull off the stickers.
 

jaguar43

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Messages
1,310
I think the "randomness" idea of the universe suits very well to the ruling classes. In a deep conscious level it generates learned helplessnes and stress because :
- You think you are here because of an accident a random action. The universe doesn't give a ***t if you are here or not. It's random. Replaceable. An accident.
- You lack sense and purpose. What purpose can be if you are random ?
- It creates disorganization and disorder inside and outside the individual.

I suspect ruling classes do not believe that not matter what they say.

But since the beginning philosophers knew that there's an order in the cosmos. Pitagorics. Everything is created because it has to be created. That there's a purpose on every single life form. In every life. I think it's the old religious motto "You're the loved one". Because you are needed. You are not an accident.

No wonder people is extremely depressed these days.

By the way haidut I once in an LSD trip saw the origin of the universe was a woman having a continuous orgasm and the orgasm was generating energy waves that were creating the rest of the things. I don't know if that is the "single wavefunction governing the motion of all of the particles".

Anyway haidut I really recommned you to dig into Pitagoric stuff because they already knew all of that. You don't have to wait for pubmed to publish the studies. It's already been done.

Thanks for sharing it anyway and eliciting these kind of discussions!

Cheers

Random variation of the genetic material is their basic assumption, and natural selection of certain alterations is their proposed mechanism. Both of these doctrines, randomness and natural selection, are important ideological components of capitalist culture

- Ray Peat Mind and Tissue page 27-28.
 
Last edited:
EMF Mitigation - Flush Niacin - Big 5 Minerals

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom