Ray's perspective on the pandemic

chimpanzee

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I don't think so, no. Adenovirus/viral vector vaccine grown in simian cells.

You mentioned Italy, but you should probably take into account a mostly aging population (I believe it is still one of the oldest, on average, globally). They were probably likely to be hit hardest by almost anything, whatever one believes is the cause.
That's why I'm confused because I've heard Ray and people here criticise the mRNA vaccines for being able to cause prion disease but not the regular viral vector vaccine, so what am I missing?
Yeah but let's not move the goalposts all the time, you (not you specifically) can't say there's no effect with lockdowns and spread and call me stupid and uninformed when I say there is, and when graphs prove you wrong (again, not you specifically) move the conversation to "yeah but they were old anyway, they would have died some day". I think if we are to be better than the morons on facebook who keep repeating everything they hear then we should hold ourselves to higher standards and refute something if we think it's wrong, even if we agree with the underlying argument no?
 

KTownSatfats

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how would you respond to the argument that although their aren't excess deaths, their may have been if there were 0 lock downs? Because when I use that argument, everyone always responds with "yea because the lock downs worked, it could have been worse if we did nothing" Everyone on this forum always mentions Sweden, but Sweden actually used masks, "socially distanced", and many businesses still closed down, despite their being no official government lock down. I wonder if there is a country that had absolutely 0 change, from start to finish. That would be a good country to examine, although I'm not sure that theirs any out there.
There
 

cgh4444

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So you finally agree, lockdowns are effective in controlling the spread of infections, period. That's all I was saying, nothing more nothing less. I've said over and over that lockdowns are undesirable and not a good way to deal with the situation but you choose to ignore that and instead interpret me as a lockdown defender. I hate lockdown as much as the next guy, I haven't seen my girlfriend in over a year but when you talk about something you need to leave your bias at the door. Some people said that there's no evidence that lockdowns reduce the spread of the virus and the mortality and that there is no decrease in mortality when they are implemented (obviously it will lag behind a few weeks but it's plain to see). This is plain false, and if we call out people from the other side for spreading lies, we should do the same when someone who shares the same view as us does the same.

Do lockdowns cause lasting issues in the population and economy as well as erode the rights of the population? Yes, I'll agree completely.
But if you tell me that lockdowns don't reduce the spread and mortality at all and that there's no countries where you can see a clear spike followed by a drastic lowering of cases and try to tell me it's due to "too much population being infected", or "there's no difference in mortality before and after lockdowns" then I'm going to need to call you out. There's no need to spread lies to defend your position.

lol context is everything. Why would you write huge paragraphs saying lock downs work for THIS particular virus when the harms clearly outweigh the “benefits”? Seems like a horrible waste of energy if you’re not a “lockdown defender.”. I don’t get your point then. Me and other people are arguing the lockdowns are pretty terrible for this current situation .
And pretty sure they didn’t lock anything down for the Spanish flu which was way more virulent and deadly than the rona.
 

CreakyJoints

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That's why I'm confused because I've heard Ray and people here criticise the mRNA vaccines for being able to cause prion disease but not the regular viral vector vaccine, so what am I missing?
Yeah but let's not move the goalposts all the time, you (not you specifically) can't say there's no effect with lockdowns and spread and call me stupid and uninformed when I say there is, and when graphs prove you wrong (again, not you specifically) move the conversation to "yeah but they were old anyway, they would have died some day". I think if we are to be better than the morons on facebook who keep repeating everything they hear then we should hold ourselves to higher standards and refute something if we think it's wrong, even if we agree with the underlying argument no?

He has, in fact, previously criticized other vaccination methods. His problem is not exclusively with mRNA vaccines, although I think these are possibly the ones he is most alarmed about.

I know you said "not you specifically" but it's hard not to see your comment as quite pointed. I don't feel like I'm guilty of either moving the goalposts or calling you stupid/uninformed by pointing out a statistic you don't think is relevant. I also think it's rather unfair to imply by proxy that I am some kind of "moron on facebook". I didn't even really present an argument here, I just thought it was worth mentioning. I didn't make any attempt to refute what you said.
 

chimpanzee

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lol context is everything. Why would you write huge paragraphs saying lock downs work for THIS particular virus when the harms clearly outweigh the “benefits”? Seems like a horrible waste of energy if you’re not a “lockdown defender.”. I don’t get your point then. Me and other people are arguing the lockdowns are pretty terrible for this current situation .
And pretty sure they didn’t lock anything down for the Spanish flu which was way more virulent and deadly than the rona.
Because how can you trust anything on the site if people can make false arguments when it supports their viewpoints, use graphs and sources that contradict their claims and no one can call them out on it without being ridiculed? But I agree with you now, it's not worth the energy I'll just make sure to take everything I read here with a much bigger pinch of salt than I already did and move on.
 

cgh4444

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Because how can you trust anything on the site if people can make false arguments when it supports their viewpoints, use graphs and sources that contradict their claims and no one can call them out on it without being ridiculed? But I agree with you now, it's not worth the energy I'll just make sure to take everything I read here with a much bigger pinch of salt than I already did and move on.

if you’re just basing all your argument on graphs and sources I’m sure both sides can come up with things to counter one another. So yeah- waste of energy but you can’t blame anyone for thinking you’re a fervent “lockdown defender” with the amount of effort your expending here. It’s rather bizarre frankly.
 

chimpanzee

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He has, in fact, previously criticized other vaccination methods. His problem is not exclusively with mRNA vaccines, although I think these are possibly the ones he is most alarmed about.

I know you said "not you specifically" but it's hard not to see your comment as quite pointed. I don't feel like I'm guilty of either moving the goalposts or calling you stupid/uninformed by pointing out a statistic you don't think is relevant. I also think it's rather unfair to imply by proxy that I am some kind of "moron on facebook". I didn't even really present an argument here, I just thought it was worth mentioning. I didn't make any attempt to refute what you said.
Thanks, I only joined the newsletters on November so I was not aware he's more alarmed of them. I got the impression everyone was talking about the mRNA ones as being worse since they can alter your DNA and every time I saw someone talk about prion disease I got the impression they were blaming mRNA ones specifically but I may have missed stuff.

I will be moving on from this discussion now but first I want to apoligize that my comment read like I was attacking you. I realize my comment is pointed and that's because I'm frustrated that since I disputed some facts that I felt were inaccurate on other posters I have received nothing but ridicule, dismissals and refusal to accept they're wrong even when their own sources and graphs clearly disprove their opinion which is insane to me. I realise you're not the one who did that and that's why I said I don't mean you specifically. You did not move the goalposts since you're not the one who disputed what I said in the first place, but your reply was tangential to my argument and that's why I talked about how the goalposts keep changing. I have nothing against you or any of your statements and I wish you all the best.
 

CreakyJoints

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Thanks, I only joined the newsletters on November so I was not aware he's more alarmed of them. I got the impression everyone was talking about the mRNA ones as being worse since they can alter your DNA and every time I saw someone talk about prion disease I got the impression they were blaming mRNA ones specifically but I may have missed stuff.

I will be moving on from this discussion now but first I want to apoligize that my comment read like I was attacking you. I realize my comment is pointed and that's because I'm frustrated that since I disputed some facts that I felt were inaccurate on other posters I have received nothing but ridicule, dismissals and refusal to accept they're wrong even when their own sources and graphs clearly disprove their opinion which is insane to me. I realise you're not the one who did that and that's why I said I don't mean you specifically. You did not move the goalposts since you're not the one who disputed what I said in the first place, but your reply was tangential to my argument and that's why I talked about how the goalposts keep changing. I have nothing against you or any of your statements and I wish you all the best.

Thank you - I really appreciate that. I am very sympathetic to dissenting opinions being presented (that's sort of why I'm here in the first place) and I hope this hasn't dissuaded you from posting here - I'm sorry that some posts here became quite antagonistic. If you're curious about other stuff he has to say on the subject, yes, you can find them in previous newsletters and in certain interviews. Likewise, I wish you all the best!
 

chimpanzee

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if you’re just basing all your argument on graphs and sources I’m sure both sides can come up with things to counter one another. So yeah- waste of energy but you can’t blame anyone for thinking you’re a fervent “lockdown defender” with the amount of effort your expending here. It’s rather bizarre frankly.
I did not base my arguments on graphs and sources, I just disputed other's people's inaccurate claims about graphs and sources that they were providing. If it's not worth expending effort to correct inaccurate facts and try to reach the truth then I don't know what is. My only mistake was thinking that this was the place to do it, now I know it's not.
 
T

TheBeard

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Spain, Italy and New York were all hit hard with mortality because they, contrary to decades of established sound medical practice of only intubating as a last resort, followed the WHO guideline to intubate patients early as a means of avoiding aerosolization of virus. That was never done for other respiratory illnesses, except for perhaps SARS, so naturally the same degree of mortality can not be expected.

Yes, yes and yes
 
T

TheBeard

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I have not listened to the podcast but assuming Ray really did say that, it saddens me to read. Not because I disagree, which I do, but because his articles have always resonated with me as well researched and cutting through the bull**** in search of the truth. I don't really have a horse in this race, I wish the borders would open and let me reunite with my loved ones but I can't ignore the facts, and in my opinion they all point to the existence of this virus.

I live in Spain and we were hit by the first wave before the US and most western countries with the exception of Italy, and we were hit harder than any other country for a long time. Even though our government tried to hide a lot of deaths to appear less incompetent, we have had a massive excess mortality increase which have only been curbed because of lockdowns. Graphs and maps from EUROMOMO. My region wasn't even hit particularly hard in the first wave and the ICUs were still full for the first time ever as far as I know. A regular cold or flu doesn't do that.

Anecdotally, one of the villages where my coworker is from was hit early before the lockdowns They have an old population and every day he would hear of someone he knew passing away. The aunt of a neighbor, the parent of a friend and so on. Even with all the strict measures I know several young people who have had it and they lost the sense of smell which required rehab to and they're still in the process of recovering. One of them had no symptoms apart from that and the other one felt fine but would get breathless just walking from the sofa to the fridge. He also fainted the first time he tried to work out a month after. Both were in their early twenties.

You don't seem to like the word conspiracy, but w hat else can you call this? Are you suggesting all the statistics have been forged? Were my close family members involved in this lie? Were they experiencing a normal virus or a placebo? I can tell you they were all young and in shape, and they've had plenty of flus and colds. This was neither. I travelled to a different region for medical purposes a few months after and overheard nurses talking about how a 55 year old colleague had died after being in the front lines and how their kids were still in shock that their relatively young ear doctor had passed away.

The asian countries with no lockdowns and strict border control and safety measures have all done great, while countries that tried to ignore it like Brazil have not (see Manaus as an example DEFINE_ME). Is it really so hard to believe that western governments are incompetent phonies who haven't had the slightest clue on how to deal with this from the beginning? I think you give them too much credit on being able to pull off an organized scam like this on a world level. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Finally, before you are tempted to label me as a close minded sheep I am just following the facts and trying to come to my own conclusions. I try to never take sides so I tend to get labeled as the enemy from both sides. This has happened when I have told coworkers that I will not be taking the vaccine since it's too early to call it safe and it has not been proved to stop the spread so I would not even contribute to herd immunity. If you have facts that contradict mine please share, I have an open mind and I'm willing to listen to arguments from both sides. I do not agree with the government's lockdowns, policies etc. I'm not on their side, I'm just someone trying to be as unbiased as possible and form my own opinions.

Regards,

You seem to be reporting "statistics" and "news" from your country, no actual tangible fact that you've seen from your eyes.

We all know someone who knows someone who is a nurse who says hospitals are full.
We all know someone who "had covid", because they lost the sense of smell and had fever, and forgot that everytime you have a flu you have fever and zero smell.

That doesn't prove excess death.

And if there is excess death, there is no proof that it wasn't from medical malpractice from early intubation and prophylactic meds administration.
 

Regina

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if you’re just basing all your argument on graphs and sources I’m sure both sides can come up with things to counter one another. So yeah- waste of energy but you can’t blame anyone for thinking you’re a fervent “lockdown defender” with the amount of effort your expending here. It’s rather bizarre frankly.
Like this source and graphs? ;)

 

KTownSatfats

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I'm glad we're finding common ground. If you read my posts I'm just doubting the fact that it's a planned event. You're telling me doctors were not doing it out of malice so it suggests it was done in good faith and not part of a planned extermination like some were suggesting.
In my view it's looking more and more like a planned extermination. That doesn't mean that doctors and health workers in the trenches are not doing the best they know of (most of them) to help people. Nobody suggested that they were the ones responsible for this whole farce. If it's true about the possibility extermination scenario, it's doubtful most of them would survive.
 

chimpanzee

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Thank you - I really appreciate that. I am very sympathetic to dissenting opinions being presented (that's sort of why I'm here in the first place) and I hope this hasn't dissuaded you from posting here - I'm sorry that some posts here became quite antagonistic. If you're curious about other stuff he has to say on the subject, yes, you can find them in previous newsletters and in certain interviews. Likewise, I wish you all the be
No worries, I'll probably keep posting in other topics I'll just learn to pick my battles better I guess.

@TheBeard you're quoting my first post and I'll admit when it was based on the misunderstanding that Peat was denying the existence of the virus. Since then I've learned that opinions here range from thinking that the virus exists and causes symptoms, but if it wasn't being mistreated it wouldn't cause so many deaths which is pretty reasonable, to outright denying that the virus exists or has anything to do with the symptoms it's being claimed to have. If you think that the nurse wives of some coworkers, and doctors who have been sent to the ER are all lying about the state of hospitals for some big conspiracy, and that a common cold can make you lose your smell for months without any congestion (you never lose your smell in a cold, you nose is just blocked) and needed rehab to regain it, or that somehow the people who are telling me that this happened to them are lying for no reason then yeah I really don't want to waste my energy arguing any further.
 

KTownSatfats

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That's great, I really think potentially helpful interventions with minimum side effects should have been emphasized much more. Taking vitamin D, I've also read cases of red light therapy helping to reabsorb advanced pulmonary edema, aspirin seems helpful too. So many harmless and potentially life saving things have been abandoned because of lack of funding and interests behind them. Everything about how the situation has been handled has been criminally incompetent in most western countries. It's just that I personally think it's due to arrogance, incompetence and carelessness instead of a mass conspiracy. Sure there's perverse incentives, there's always been which is why the state of health has been declining for so many years, but to leap from that to a planned extermination at a global scale with the purpose of establishing a new world order is way too much of a leap for me to accept.
Don't accept it then. Why not just enjoy a wait and see attitude? Cuz it appears to be happening at lightening speed at this point. You may not have long to wait.
 

chimpanzee

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Don't accept it then. Why not just enjoy a wait and see attitude? Cuz it appears to be happening at lightening speed at this point. You may not have long to wait.
Cool, I'll check back when it's over to admit I was wrong if my new leaders are gracious enough to allow me to do that.
 

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