Ray's Latest Newsletter - Vasopressin (ADH) Antagonists

haidut

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In his latest newsletter, Ray has a lot to say about vasopressin, also known as antiduretic hormone (ADH). Specifically, Ray has this language towards the end of his newsletter:
"...Stress affects gene methylation to increase the production of vasopressin. Antagonists to vasopressin can reverse the learned helplessness produced by stress. Vasopressin is responsible for the intestinal bleeding of stress, causing constriction of the bowel blood vessels, and damages the barrier function of the bowel, and also the blood brain barrier and generally increases vascular leakiness. Chronic exposure to vasopressin damages the kidneys, causing abnormal growth and fibrosis, as it does in the heart. The increased collagen synthesis is at least partly dependent on the increased nitric oxide production caused by vasopressin. Increased nitric oxide production is also responsible for the reduced body temperature and lower metabolic rate produced by vasopressin."

One of the most effective antagonists to vasopressin is caffeine. Here is some more info.
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Vasopressin
"... Ethanol and caffeine reduce vasopressin secretion. The resulting decrease in water reabsorption by the kidneys leads to a higher urine output. Coffee is an example of a food product that suppresses the body's release of antidiuretic hormones, due to its level of caffeine. This intake of caffeine causes the body to lose more water and may lead to dehydration if consumed excessively."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/201516
"...The basal release of vasopressin from the isolated neural lobe of the rat decreased in the presence of exogenous cAMP, 8Br-cAMP, diB-cAMP, theophylline, SQ 20,009 and RO20-1724. The concentration-related decrease in vasopressin release, in the presence of phosphodiesterase inhibitors, was accompanied by a progressive increase in cAMP concentration in the neural lobe. The findings suggest a local modulation of vasopressin release from the neural lobes."

Consistent with Peat's writings above, caffeine has been shown to reverse learned helplessness (depression) caused by stress and also reduce nitric oxide.
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=7309
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=3696

The doses used for learned helplessness were <800mg daily for a human and the dose for reducing NO was only 200mg.
 

charlie

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:hattip
 
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narouz

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Thanks, haidut!
I'm drinking lots of coffee, tea, and taking caffeine pills
focusing on liver therapy.
Nice to know I'll be antagonizing the hell out of ADH too! :)
 

haidut

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narouz said:
post 99634 Thanks, haidut!
I'm drinking lots of coffee, tea, and taking caffeine pills
focusing on liver therapy.
Nice to know I'll be antagonizing the hell out of ADH too! :)

If you want to test for it do not use the regular ADH blood test as it is unreliable. The way to test for ADH is serum sodium. If ADH is high serum sodium will be low (hyponatremia), which matches well with Peat's writings that high ADH means low metabolic rate and thus poor sodium retention.
Also, high ADH means high blood pressure and given that high ADH means low sodium this means people with high blood pressure will tend to have low blood sodium and vice versa. This is perhaps the clearest indication that a doctor who thinks (and often advises against) high salt intake causes hypertension should have failed medical school.
 
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narouz

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haidut said:
post 99636
narouz said:
post 99634 Thanks, haidut!
I'm drinking lots of coffee, tea, and taking caffeine pills
focusing on liver therapy.
Nice to know I'll be antagonizing the hell out of ADH too! :)

If you want to test for it do not use the regular ADH blood test as it is unreliable. The way to test for ADH is serum sodium. If ADH is high serum sodium will be low (hyponatremia), which matches well with Peat's writings that high ADH means low metabolic rate and thus poor sodium retention.
Also, high ADH means high blood pressure and given that high ADH means low sodium this means people with high blood pressure will tend to have low blood sodium and vice versa. This is perhaps the clearest indication that a doctor who thinks (and often advises against) high salt intake causes hypertension should have failed medical school.

Thanks!
I may add that test when I do labs again here pretty soon.
I thought even mainstream medicine had started to come 'round to salt--
being good for health, I mean,
and not responsible for hbp. :cry:
 
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Sheila

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Good morning Haidut
We're yet to get that newsletter downunder - another couple of weeks perhaps - but I look forward to reading yet another piece of the puzzle, thanks for the taster.
I know of a 10 yr old boy, who is a chronic bedwetter and as a last resort desmopressin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmopressin] an ADH mimic was trialled resulting in probably more urine production over night. Use of thyroid and other metabolic enhancing techniques and diet have not yet borne fruit either.
Sometimes though such results allow one to ask better questions of 'why'. We know that it's not a failure of ADH, at least that has been ruled out.
Apparently "desmopressin resistant kids excrete more salt and urea at night and have higher prostaglandins" says the research into this.
Thus my feeling is gut irritation/prostaglandin synthesis should be the focus and indeed this is a child with bowel and urine urgency as well as bed wetting.
Thus looking at anti-prostaglandins which include vitamin E and aspirin. Does caffeine have activity here too?
Any hints in the newsletter to come? Any thoughts on this picture at all?
Most grateful if anything occurs to you.
With thanks
Sheila
 

haidut

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Sheila said:
post 99640 Good morning Haidut
We're yet to get that newsletter downunder - another couple of weeks perhaps - but I look forward to reading yet another piece of the puzzle, thanks for the taster.
I know of a 10 yr old boy, who is a chronic bedwetter and as a last resort desmopressin [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmopressin] an ADH mimic was trialled resulting in probably more urine production over night. Use of thyroid and other metabolic enhancing techniques and diet have not yet borne fruit either.
Sometimes though such results allow one to ask better questions of 'why'. We know that it's not a failure of ADH, at least that has been ruled out.
Apparently "desmopressin resistant kids excrete more salt and urea at night and have higher prostaglandins" says the research into this.
Thus my feeling is gut irritation/prostaglandin synthesis should be the focus and indeed this is a child with bowel and urine urgency as well as bed wetting.
Thus looking at anti-prostaglandins which include vitamin E and aspirin. Does caffeine have activity here too?
Any hints in the newsletter to come? Any thoughts on this picture at all?
Most grateful if anything occurs to you.
With thanks
Sheila

The newsletter does not talk about prostaglandins but the bowel urgency and bedwetting are a common sign of high estrogen. Ray has recommended increased vitamin E and/or progesterone for helping control bowel and urination. Vitamin E also reduces prostaglandin synthesis and recent research shows caffeine to be a potent estrogen "receptor" antagonist. As far as I know caffeine also reduces prostaglandin production so it should be a good option to try. Here is some more info on caffeine and estrogen.
viewtopic.php?f=123&t=6488

If you do try aspirin, vitamin E, caffeine, etc please keep in mind that in high doses they all thin the blood and should probably be combined with some vitamin K. Vitamin K also has anti-estrogenic activity, so it is a great addition to the other suggested substances. I think if there is one things that most modern people are deficient in it is probably vitamin K, so it won't hurt to add just in case.
Just some suggestions to ask a doctor about.
 
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Sheila

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As ever, Haidut, I am grateful for your thoughts and I note the caveat.
I still find it intellectually odd that a young child can have such oestrogenic influence.
But he was a premature baby and that of course suggests a lowered progesterone and elevated oestrogen environment.
Thank you again,
Sheila
 
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I live with a cat that has low sodium... would probably be on radioactive iodine if I hadn't stepped in :ss
 
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This is news to me. Vasopressin often gets depleted during nights out drinking (i.e. via ethanol as shown in the above study) and its said to be this reason that we can't remember the events of those nights -- vasopressin is apparently needed to form short-term/immediate memories. Tim Ferriss talks about this and he's said to have played with it while learning chinese characters: he'd inhale desmopressin through each nostril, then flick through his Chinese character book and immediately be able to recall 99% of the characters from memory.

I shouldn't be too surprised, epinephrine produces euphoria and great memory recall yet it's a product of stress and should only be used in such situations -- vasopressin seems similar.
 

messtafarian

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I'm stunned to announce that I actually know what vasopressin is :).

I should add that the reason I know this is because I kept running into it when I quit smoking and did not want to get fat. Everybody gets fat when they quit smoking, really, and i wanted to know why. I kept reading that the reason was because smoking increased the metabolic rate.

OK. How?

Well finally after lots of netgazing it turned out that first of all, it's only women who get fat when they quit. Quitting has far less of an effect on men in that regard. And the reason is?

Vasopressin. In women, cigarette smoking increases the level of vasopressin and quitting somewhat temporarily dysregulates vasopressin secretion. In men however, smoking antagonizes vasopressin. The studies didn't really have much conjecture on why that was.
 

haidut

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cantstoppeating said:
post 99716 This is news to me. Vasopressin often gets depleted during nights out drinking (i.e. via ethanol as shown in the above study) and its said to be this reason that we can't remember the events of those nights -- vasopressin is apparently needed to form short-term/immediate memories. Tim Ferriss talks about this and he's said to have played with it while learning chinese characters: he'd inhale desmopressin through each nostril, then flick through his Chinese character book and immediately be able to recall 99% of the characters from memory.

I shouldn't be too surprised, epinephrine produces euphoria and great memory recall yet it's a product of stress and should only be used in such situations -- vasopressin seems similar.

Chronically elevated ADH is known as SIADH and is often caused by cancer. So, definitely not something you want to have elevated, even if it improves memory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndrome_ ... _secretion
 
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montmorency

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messtafarian said:
post 99728 it's only women who get fat when they quit.

I'm here to tell you that I (a man) got fat when I quit. There were probably things going, but I was always pretty sure that stopping smoking had a lot to do with it. I have seen another explanation for this that was not gender-specific, but I don't have it to hand.
 
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NathanK

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messtafarian said:
post 99728 I'm stunned to announce that I actually know what vasopressin is :).

I should add that the reason I know this is because I kept running into it when I quit smoking and did not want to get fat. Everybody gets fat when they quit smoking, really, and i wanted to know why. I kept reading that the reason was because smoking increased the metabolic rate.

OK. How?

Well finally after lots of netgazing it turned out that first of all, it's only women who get fat when they quit. Quitting has far less of an effect on men in that regard. And the reason is?

Vasopressin. In women, cigarette smoking increases the level of vasopressin and quitting somewhat temporarily dysregulates vasopressin secretion. In men however, smoking antagonizes vasopressin. The studies didn't really have much conjecture on why that was.
This is interesting. I never knew this. Quitting tobacco had zero effect on my weight either.

And while we're talking about under represented hypothalamic hormones, I just learned oxytocin is considered a stress hormone. I hope Ray comes out with a newsletter on that one too. He's already done GH
 
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Barry Obummer

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Is there any other dietary things besides caffeine and booze? Would increasing salt help? - I tried with fairly high amounts of salt but it doesn't seem to do anything, I don't even get thirsty. And trust me, I love both coffee and vodka, but caffeine gives me insomnia and I have a history of alcoholism (this actually explains that even as I became severely intoxicated I temporarily became more functional in most ways). I wish there was a before bed caffeine antidote. How much aspirin should I take? I have very cold hands and feet among a bunch of other health issues and I feel like I am on to something involving SIADH/hyponatreamia/hypovolemia/hypotonic dehydration. If anyone is interested it has to do with this: Low salt or hyponatremia
 

Nighteyes

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Barry Obummer

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I have been experimenting with Taurine and I am almost certain it must be affecting vasopressin. My urinary output has increased dramatically and water retention is really low. My feeling is that it supresses vasopressin similarly to coffee/caffeine. This book might provide some insights:

To Giveth and Taketh Away: Determination of Taurine's Protective Role During Ethanol Withdrawal Through Supplementation and Depletion Paradigms

Ok, thanks a lot. I'll give it a look. I haven't drank in a while, but I used to have some D.T. symptoms from just a weekend binge. Full on disassociated hallucinations and such. Perhaps it had to do with over hydration. The only thing is that I don't ever have any edema, but I guess that doesn't have to manifest all the time? I'm new to Peat and this stuff, I don't really understand it but I am just trying to connect dots. Do you just use a taurine supplement? Do you take in a lot of salt as well, or is that not really necessary?
 

Nighteyes

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Heh I am still connecting dots too - that seems to be never ending :D a good Thing indeed!

Yes I Use bulkpowders supplement and I mix it Into my milky coffee along with a bit of salt. Have upped The salt alot over The last couple of days as I thought The increased urin output might be due to High adrenalin.

Another thought is that The increased urin output could be from lowered estrogen. Sigh. Nothin's easy eh?
 
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