Ray used thyroid to slow his metabolism down. Everyone else doing the opposite.

[Herbie]

brother could it be something as simple as being burnt out a little by information overload? (paralysis by analysis etc)

maybe its a good idea to take a break of like 7-14 days from reading about nutrition and health and trying to eat whatever according to cravings? sort of a holiday basically

lol burnt out and overload.. I am not paralysed, I don't have problems unless eating potatoes is considered a problem, I lived in my car and ate McDonalds 3 meals per day for 3 months and wrote on here about it. don't even write on here anymore, hardly done so for over a year now and don't read anything because its boring, I work a lot as a car mechanic and have a family, I listen to Danny, Georgi and Ray when it comes out, hardly have time for that. I just remember all this stuff from 5 years of interviews and was curious about why Ray had like high metabolism and low thyroid where probably many people get confused because they are low thyroid low metabolism. Even Georgi said he cannot do all the milk, it's not a big deal. I wonder how many people go back and forth with no starch to full liquid back to starch and probably they will never be able to do all the liquid even being euthyroid. How many people would try all the liquid, fail then give up and leave when there is no information or science about this solid to liquid food, we know the Chinese know about damp and dry foods etc.

 

[Mito]

On the last interview with Danny, Georgi and Ray, Danny asked Ray if the reason he started taking thyroid was because of Broda Barnes and Ray said that when he decided to start taking thyroid that it slowed his metabolism down to normal.

Someone asked the same question on One Radio Network 12-21-20 Ray Peat show at 1:39:50 Dr. Ray Peat, Ph.D - COVID-19, Vaccines, Conspiracy Theories & Your Health Questions Answered - December 21, 2020 | One Radio Network

 

[Lejeboca]

Do you think most people have low thyroid and low metabolism not low thyroid high metabolism?

The latter would mean that the product of their high metabolism is lactic acid rather that CO2, which suggests glycolysis. Cf. marathon runners.

 

[gaze]

I think you've misunderstood what he is saying.

The metabolic rate and thyroid function are not the same thing - thyroid function directly contributes to the metabolic rate, but it is not the metabolic rate. Generally speaking, the metabolic rate refers to the amount of energy, and thus substrate, turned over by the organism in a given period of time.

In the hypothyroid state, adrenaline and other stress hormones are chronically elevated -> stress hormones reduce the cells ability to oxidize glucose, instead promoting glycolysis and fermentation -> cells now only obtain 2 ATP per molecule of glucose via glycolysis instead of the 32 available via oxidative phosphorylation -> cells now have to turn over a much larger absolute amount of glucose to obtain the same amount of useable energy, thus 'wasting' glucose -> the absolute amount of energy you have to consume via dietary intake is much higher, even though the energetic status of the cell itself is much lower -> thus, the metabolic rate / the amount of substrate being turned over is objectively higher, but the energy available to cells to actually fulfil their function, repair, regenerate, etc is much lower.

When thyroid is taken in this state, it allows glucose to be oxidized completely, restoring the cells ability to extract all available energy from each molecule. This reduces the absolute amount of absolute glucose being turned over, and thus the amount that is needed via dietary intake, but it vastly increases the energy that's actually to be used by cells.

Ray's approach is about increasing the useable energy available to cells, not increasing the metabolic rate by any means necessary - if the latter was true, we'd all be running marathons 24/7, taking amphetamine, etc.

could you explain the "uncoupling" from pufa deficiency? this is something i've always been confused about.

if pufa deficiency increases uncoupling and the "wasteful" metabolism, but thyroid increases efficiency, arnt they opposing one another?

 

[gaze]

ray speaking positively of the wasteful metabolism. it's clear there is 2 types of wasteful metabolism, one is the lactic acid, glycolysis metabolism, the other is the high co2 wasteful metabolism. i'm still unsure which ray has himself

 

[Lejeboca]

ray speaking positively of the wasteful metabolism. it's clear there is 2 types of wasteful metabolism, one is the lactic acid, glycolysis metabolism, the other is the high co2 wasteful metabolism. i'm still unsure which ray has himself

I guess, one can have high CO2 and still be low on thyroid. For exmple, on high altitudes, where high CO2 comes "for free". Conversily, if one's thyroid is good his CO2 is good too.

 

[GelatinGoblin]

I think you've misunderstood what he is saying.

The metabolic rate and thyroid function are not the same thing - thyroid function directly contributes to the metabolic rate, but it is not the metabolic rate. Generally speaking, the metabolic rate refers to the amount of energy, and thus substrate, turned over by the organism in a given period of time.

In the hypothyroid state, adrenaline and other stress hormones are chronically elevated -> stress hormones reduce the cells ability to oxidize glucose, instead promoting glycolysis and fermentation -> cells now only obtain 2 ATP per molecule of glucose via glycolysis instead of the 32 available via oxidative phosphorylation -> cells now have to turn over a much larger absolute amount of glucose to obtain the same amount of useable energy, thus 'wasting' glucose -> the absolute amount of energy you have to consume via dietary intake is much higher, even though the energetic status of the cell itself is much lower -> thus, the metabolic rate / the amount of substrate being turned over is objectively higher, but the energy available to cells to actually fulfil their function, repair, regenerate, etc is much lower.

When thyroid is taken in this state, it allows glucose to be oxidized completely, restoring the cells ability to extract all available energy from each molecule. This reduces the absolute amount of absolute glucose being turned over, and thus the amount that is needed via dietary intake, but it vastly increases the energy that's actually to be used by cells.

Ray's approach is about increasing the useable energy available to cells, not increasing the metabolic rate by any means necessary - if the latter was true, we'd all be running marathons 24/7, taking amphetamine, etc.

That's some good sum of information, thank you

 

[gaze]

@Herbie

So what do you eat now ? Are you just on the F*** it diet and just eat whatever or do you just eat less liquids?

 

[haidut]

On the last interview with Danny, Georgi and Ray, Danny asked Ray if the reason he started taking thyroid was because of Broda Barnes and Ray said that when he decided to start taking thyroid that it slowed his metabolism down to normal. Danny asked a great question to Ray which was why was his metabolism was so fast and was it from stress and Ray didn't answer. Ray said he met some men like him who are 5'8-5'10 and couldn't put on weight but was able to build muscle once on the thyroid. Maybe Danny can ask Ray again about his fast metabolism again.

Ray said he used to eat 9000-10000 calories, drink a gallon of milk per day and not urinate much, 30-50 coffees per day, litre of ice cream per day for 15 years, said something to Georgi about osmolarity which I don't understand. Ray said he evaporates the liquid from breathing and said about breathing a lot, personally I don't breathe enough to evaporate the liquid but I thought not breathing so much at rest was more efficient and retained more co2. I've never tried to control my breathing in anyway but I'm not breathing very heavy at rest. Doesn't seem normal to.

When I came across Ray's work I basically emulated what he recommended and which is also the same as copying his own lifestyle because he practices what he preaches but I cannot do it. So many people like me come and want to speed up their metabolism but he was trying to slow his down. I was coming from under eating which I think most people are because of brain washing, feel sick from terrible food, plus poverty because of globalism.

I cannot drink all the liquid and never did before coming into this paradigm, many people like me cannot emulate this Ray Peat lifestyle because they have a different physiology, maybe more normal and that they do not have to go to such extremes to be healthy or have a good metabolism. I would like to understand this more, maybe we can learn more. I wouldn't even have much puf in my tissues because I never ate much food in my life. My Mum didn't raise me to be having deep fried food much.

I need to eat starches like potato and dryer food because it becomes too much liquid and fat and feel stressed by all the liquid then comes the high adrenalin clear urine and stress from that. I have been going round in circles for 5 years now, listened to every interview twice, doesn't matter if I ate low puf for 5 years and took thyroid and drink strong coffee etc. People can't just say you haven't been doing it right or long enough because Ive been doing it consistently for so long and I haven't found anything beyond Peat. But I am always at sea level. Don't tell me to put salt in my milk..

I maybe complaining but I find its hard to get a straight answer from Ray. If it were me I would give more thorough explanations so people would understand but maybe that's just me. I do find I hard to know the truth because no one can just refute what Ray says because none of us are old enough and have access to enough science plus are not experienced enough to be able to find out the truth for themselves, we have to trust Ray and not even ourselves really because we have no clue about ourselves because we live in a idiot world and no one else is in Ray's league. Everyone knows he is has got intelligence and time on everyone else and there is no one else alive. We are hamsters doing experiments on ourselves. but its hard to be objective on yourself. Plus Ray is constricted in what he can say and the medium he can help people through, very limited.

I am mid 30s but people think I am mid 20s, even 18 years old by old women, I am 5'5 very boyish and youthful, in personality too like never gonna grow up so not sure what my personal physiology is. I will keep walking on the knifes edge balancing between all the extremes and keep moving forward.

He had high metabolism due to high stress hormones. I think we discussed this in the podcast, it was due to adrenaline and cortisol. Something similar happens when you strenuously exercise - i.e. your metabolism does rise, and this is why initially it makes people feel good. But it is a "wasteful" type of metabolism because it relies mostly on fat oxidation and as such generates less CO2 per unit of oxygen consumed. When he took thyroid, the stress hormones were lowered and he started oxidizing more glucose (and wasting less of it into lactic acid) so his organism was able to maintain itself at a lower metabolic rate than the one he had due to stress. He has talked many times about how hypothyroid people will feel very energetic in the morning due to their very high cortisol and then after eating and/or taking thyroid their temps and heart rate fall. I guess he knows about this first-hand as it apparently happened to him as well.

 

[Herbie]

He had high metabolism due to high stress hormones. I think we discussed this in the podcast, it was due to adrenaline and cortisol. Something similar happens when you strenuously exercise - i.e. your metabolism does rise, and this is why initially it makes people feel good. But it is a "wasteful" type of metabolism because it relies mostly on fat oxidation and as such generates less CO2 per unit of oxygen consumed. When he took thyroid, the stress hormones were lowered and he started oxidizing more glucose (and wasting less of it into lactic acid) so his organism was able to maintain itself at a lower metabolic rate than the one he had due to stress. He has talked many times about how hypothyroid people will feel very energetic in the morning due to their very high cortisol and then after eating and/or taking thyroid their temps and heart rate fall. I guess he knows about this first-hand as it apparently happened to him as well.

Thanks for explaining Haidut I appreciate it.

I came from low carb or definitely not the carbs I eat now, was very lean and I know from reflecting that I was operating on adrenalin and cortisol for a decade or so and burning fat and once this stopped I put on fat and more muscle and felt the most healthy and robust then ever but it took 3 years of trial and error with Peats ideas without thyroid. I think this is what Ray is saying when people take thyroid and then start to grow.
Now I am actually taking cynoplus and the weight is balancing out and tried low fat for 6 months didn't lose any weight and for a few weeks tried Broda Barnes low carb diet but it didn't do anything and felt bad and so I don't think super low fat or low carb works for fat loss if one is now in glucose oxidation metabolism. Maybe these diets work if one is still stuck burning fat because of stress which makes sense why so many can have success with this but in the long term they will be it terrible health. PS I stopped caring about getting fat after you shared the information on sumo wrestlers in 2019.

 

[Ledo]

Once you avoid puf, carrageenan, gum arabic, locust bean gum, soy lecithin, citric acid, ascorbic acid, gluten, corn syrup, fortified and so on it doesn't leave you with much choice then you lower muscle meat, vegetables, starch and then its just dairy with some liver if you can stomach it and oysters, shrimp but then you know to eat low fat so then less cheese and just basically milk and OJ because dried fruit has issues, many fruits not in season, organic?

Bravo, this is a classic! I can see you have spent some time standing, caught like a fish by the refrigerator, just like me.

 

[Ainaga]

He had high metabolism due to high stress hormones. I think we discussed this in the podcast, it was due to adrenaline and cortisol. Something similar happens when you strenuously exercise - i.e. your metabolism does rise, and this is why initially it makes people feel good. But it is a "wasteful" type of metabolism because it relies mostly on fat oxidation and as such generates less CO2 per unit of oxygen consumed. When he took thyroid, the stress hormones were lowered and he started oxidizing more glucose (and wasting less of it into lactic acid) so his organism was able to maintain itself at a lower metabolic rate than the one he had due to stress. He has talked many times about how hypothyroid people will feel very energetic in the morning due to their very high cortisol and then after eating and/or taking thyroid their temps and heart rate fall. I guess he knows about this first-hand as it apparently happened to him as well.

he's not saying that in the short clip. quite the contrary. he is seeing the word “wasteful” in a positive light. he's saying 12-15 year olds, who have the more “wasteful energy metabolism”, are also the healthiest.
and on a different note, simply reducing stress hormones, without necessarily using thyroid, should improve glucose oxidation, right?

 

[Peatful]

he's not saying that in the short clip. quite the contrary. he is seeing the word “wasteful” in a positive light. he's saying 12-15 year olds, who have the more “wasteful energy metabolism”, are also the healthiest.
and on a different note, simply reducing stress hormones, without necessarily using thyroid, should improve glucose oxidation, right?

Thx

Then why take thyroid to stop the “wasteful metabolism”

I believe he called it “metabolically insufficient” in GE 19

 

[Ainaga]

Thx

Then why take thyroid to stop the “wasteful metabolism”

I believe he called it “metabolically insufficient” in GE 19

i have no idea about the mechanism and metabolic pathways by which thyroid helps hyperthyroidism by improving efficiency of glucose oxidation, sparing the stress hormones. but gaze explains it in broad terms above. i was speaking in this case of his use of "wasteful" in that particular clip. i'd love to hear ray using "wasteful" in the negative sense now, but i'm guessing it'd be in line with what gaze herself and haidut say.

 

[Peater]

This is an absolutely golden thread, thanks to all contributors.

 

[Ainaga]

haidut says:
"When he took thyroid, the stress hormones were lowered and he started oxidizing more glucose (and wasting less of it into lactic acid) so his organism was able to maintain itself at a lower metabolic rate than the one he had due to stress."

how does this relate to the metabolic theory of aging? ray was an opponent of it. but it seems that with the above explanation it's possible to have a slower metabolic rate (a slower metabolism) and still oxidize glucose properly, for example with supplemental thyroid, etc. it almost seems that if you manage to oxidize glucose properly, then the lower the metabolic rate, the better.
but how low can it go before it starts to affect the body's ability to produce thyroid and therefore oxidize glucose properly?
and how does buteyko fit into this?

 

[Peater]

I think it's about the 'mode' of metabolism rather than the speed.

 

[InChristAlone]

I think it's about the 'mode' of metabolism rather than the speed.

Exactly. We don't want free fatty acids. This is key.