Ray Peat Status

Marcine

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. if they wanted to take him out the CIA would have already done it. it's not like he's Dr Oz with millions of followers and even if he was, they would just "debunk" him.
 

haidut

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Isn't the sort of microchimerism we can observe from fetus to Mother? That's a long stretch to then say that your moms high school fling contributed genes to the fetus. Also I think the sex has to result in children or at least a pregnancy for "telegony" to be a thing.

If someone can post proof in humans of this happening please do.

Not a long stretch at all and it has been observed in so many species that the scale is tipped heavily in favor of the hypothesis that it does occur in humans as well. Considering that it invalidates the Central Dogma in biology, it is not surprising at all that the idea has been suppressed. Darwin himself (see below) observed it in nature numerous times and considered it an evolutionary principle of extreme importance.
The effect is non-genomic - i.e. the offspring does not actually carry genes from previous partners. However, the presence of those genes in the female organism somehow "imprints" the ovaries and affects the phenotype of the offspring. Also, there is no need for pregnancy to occur. As long there has been ejaculation(s), that is sufficient for the effects to be observed. Some scientists think even saliva/kissing alone can be enough (since it also contains DNA) provided it is done over an extended period of time (years).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2510515/pdf/brmedj08819-0076b.pdf
TELEGONY: A Superstition that Dies Hard—Experimental Evidence from Breeding and Deductions from Embryology—Supposed Phenomenon as Negligible in Eugenics as in Stock-Breeding. 1
Semen secrets: How a previous sexual partner can influence another male's offspring
Myxomatosis - Nongenetic Aspects of Resistance to Myxomatosis in Rabbits, Oryctolagus-Cuniculus
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"...Telegony is the effect of a previous mating on subsequent progeny. Its principle is that females are impregnated by the first males to which they are mated, so that some of their subsequent offspring, regardless of their actual father, will show influence of the first male (Rabaud 1914). In chapter 11 of his book The Variation, Darwin (1868) collected many alleged examples of ‘the direct action of the male element on the female form’. He considered it to be of special importance for understanding the mechanisms of heredity and development. Spencer (1893) regarded it as a major weapon in his debate with Weismann over the reality of the inheritance of acquired characters."
"...A search of the literature of cell biology and biochemistry reveals several plausible mechanisms that may form the basis for telegony. These involve the penetration of spermatozoa into the somatic tissues of the female genital tract, the incorporation of the DNA released by spermatozoa into maternal somatic cells, the presence of foetal DNA in maternal blood, as well as sperm RNA‐mediated non‐Mendelian inheritance of epigenetic changes."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/11250003.2011.562554#_i8
"...There were many alleged cases of telegony in animals (Lowe, 1896; Rabaud 1914; Zhelnin 1964Zhelnin, VA. 1964. The phenomenon of telegony in rabbits. Krolikovodstvo Zvehovodstvo, 7: 20–21. [Google Scholar]). For example, when normal females that had borne at least three litters to males made tolerant neonatally were subsequently mated to normal, nonimmune males, the offspring showed a hyporesponsive phenotype that did not differ from that of the progeny of fathers made tolerant neonatally. The response of this offspring was significantly lower than the response of mice born to normal females mated only to normal mates (Gorczynski et al. 1983). This type of observation has also been reported by Sobey and Conolly (1986), who demonstrated that male domestic rabbits, mating after recovering from myxomatosis, may transmit immunity to progeny born to the female in the next seven months, including progeny sired by other males lacking immunity."
 

BearWithMe

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Not a long stretch at all and it has been observed in so many species that the scale is tipped heavily in favor of the hypothesis that it does occur in humans as well. Considering that it invalidates the Central Dogma in biology, it is not surprising at all that the idea has been suppressed. Darwin himself (see below) observed it in nature numerous times and considered it an evolutionary principle of extreme importance.
The effect is non-genomic - i.e. the offspring does not actually carry genes from previous partners. However, the presence of those genes in the female organism somehow "imprints" the ovaries and affects the phenotype of the offspring. Also, there is no need for pregnancy to occur. As long there has been ejaculation(s), that is sufficient for the effects to be observed. Some scientists think even saliva/kissing alone can be enough (since it also contains DNA) provided it is done over an extended period of time (years).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2510515/pdf/brmedj08819-0076b.pdf
TELEGONY: A Superstition that Dies Hard—Experimental Evidence from Breeding and Deductions from Embryology—Supposed Phenomenon as Negligible in Eugenics as in Stock-Breeding. 1
Semen secrets: How a previous sexual partner can influence another male's offspring
Myxomatosis - Nongenetic Aspects of Resistance to Myxomatosis in Rabbits, Oryctolagus-Cuniculus
Error - Cookies Turned Off
"...Telegony is the effect of a previous mating on subsequent progeny. Its principle is that females are impregnated by the first males to which they are mated, so that some of their subsequent offspring, regardless of their actual father, will show influence of the first male (Rabaud 1914). In chapter 11 of his book The Variation, Darwin (1868) collected many alleged examples of ‘the direct action of the male element on the female form’. He considered it to be of special importance for understanding the mechanisms of heredity and development. Spencer (1893) regarded it as a major weapon in his debate with Weismann over the reality of the inheritance of acquired characters."
"...A search of the literature of cell biology and biochemistry reveals several plausible mechanisms that may form the basis for telegony. These involve the penetration of spermatozoa into the somatic tissues of the female genital tract, the incorporation of the DNA released by spermatozoa into maternal somatic cells, the presence of foetal DNA in maternal blood, as well as sperm RNA‐mediated non‐Mendelian inheritance of epigenetic changes."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/11250003.2011.562554#_i8
"...There were many alleged cases of telegony in animals (Lowe, 1896; Rabaud 1914; Zhelnin 1964Zhelnin, VA. 1964. The phenomenon of telegony in rabbits. Krolikovodstvo Zvehovodstvo, 7: 20–21. [Google Scholar]). For example, when normal females that had borne at least three litters to males made tolerant neonatally were subsequently mated to normal, nonimmune males, the offspring showed a hyporesponsive phenotype that did not differ from that of the progeny of fathers made tolerant neonatally. The response of this offspring was significantly lower than the response of mice born to normal females mated only to normal mates (Gorczynski et al. 1983). This type of observation has also been reported by Sobey and Conolly (1986), who demonstrated that male domestic rabbits, mating after recovering from myxomatosis, may transmit immunity to progeny born to the female in the next seven months, including progeny sired by other males lacking immunity."
This is incredibly interesting read. Would that explain the strong preference for females with low "notch counut" in most of the men?
 

haidut

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This is incredibly interesting read. Would that explain the strong preference for females with low "notch counut" in most of the men?

That's probably one of the reasons, but only as far as preferences for child-bearing partner. Men do prefer females with a high number of partners for one-night stands. Other probable reasons are that promiscuous females are typically estrogen-dominant and as such tend to have problems conceiving or carrying a child to term, have also been shown to be prone to abandoning their offspring(s), and their offspring tends to be less healthy.
 

michael94

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Not a long stretch at all and it has been observed in so many species that the scale is tipped heavily in favor of the hypothesis that it does occur in humans as well. Considering that it invalidates the Central Dogma in biology, it is not surprising at all that the idea has been suppressed. Darwin himself (see below) observed it in nature numerous times and considered it an evolutionary principle of extreme importance.
The effect is non-genomic - i.e. the offspring does not actually carry genes from previous partners. However, the presence of those genes in the female organism somehow "imprints" the ovaries and affects the phenotype of the offspring. Also, there is no need for pregnancy to occur. As long there has been ejaculation(s), that is sufficient for the effects to be observed. Some scientists think even saliva/kissing alone can be enough (since it also contains DNA) provided it is done over an extended period of time (years).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2510515/pdf/brmedj08819-0076b.pdf
TELEGONY: A Superstition that Dies Hard—Experimental Evidence from Breeding and Deductions from Embryology—Supposed Phenomenon as Negligible in Eugenics as in Stock-Breeding. 1
Semen secrets: How a previous sexual partner can influence another male's offspring
Myxomatosis - Nongenetic Aspects of Resistance to Myxomatosis in Rabbits, Oryctolagus-Cuniculus
Error - Cookies Turned Off
"...Telegony is the effect of a previous mating on subsequent progeny. Its principle is that females are impregnated by the first males to which they are mated, so that some of their subsequent offspring, regardless of their actual father, will show influence of the first male (Rabaud 1914). In chapter 11 of his book The Variation, Darwin (1868) collected many alleged examples of ‘the direct action of the male element on the female form’. He considered it to be of special importance for understanding the mechanisms of heredity and development. Spencer (1893) regarded it as a major weapon in his debate with Weismann over the reality of the inheritance of acquired characters."
"...A search of the literature of cell biology and biochemistry reveals several plausible mechanisms that may form the basis for telegony. These involve the penetration of spermatozoa into the somatic tissues of the female genital tract, the incorporation of the DNA released by spermatozoa into maternal somatic cells, the presence of foetal DNA in maternal blood, as well as sperm RNA‐mediated non‐Mendelian inheritance of epigenetic changes."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/11250003.2011.562554#_i8
"...There were many alleged cases of telegony in animals (Lowe, 1896; Rabaud 1914; Zhelnin 1964Zhelnin, VA. 1964. The phenomenon of telegony in rabbits. Krolikovodstvo Zvehovodstvo, 7: 20–21. [Google Scholar]). For example, when normal females that had borne at least three litters to males made tolerant neonatally were subsequently mated to normal, nonimmune males, the offspring showed a hyporesponsive phenotype that did not differ from that of the progeny of fathers made tolerant neonatally. The response of this offspring was significantly lower than the response of mice born to normal females mated only to normal mates (Gorczynski et al. 1983). This type of observation has also been reported by Sobey and Conolly (1986), who demonstrated that male domestic rabbits, mating after recovering from myxomatosis, may transmit immunity to progeny born to the female in the next seven months, including progeny sired by other males lacking immunity."
The study you posted with rabbits was about transfering immune activity. That is extremely interesting but again a long stretch to what people typically discuss when it concerns telegony of females. And I am not trying to defend promiscuity or deny that intense experiences in one's life affects your offspring, but the I think you are still dreaming a bit when saying male dna from physical or sexual contact is a profound driver of offspring phenotype. Spermatazoa dna entering the female body affecting epigenetic changes? Ok, more proof needed still as to what sort of epigenetic changes these really are.

At any rate, epigenetic changes can also come in profound ways that requires no contact at all... Heck, a Woman or Man can be "impregnated" by an Idea that changes the entire course of their life!
 

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BearWithMe

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That's probably one of the reasons, but only as far as preferences for child-bearing partner. Men do prefer females with a high number of partners for one-night stands. Other probable reasons are that promiscuous females are typically estrogen-dominant and as such tend to have problems conceiving or carrying a child to term, have also been shown to be prone to abandoning their offspring(s), and their offspring tends to be less healthy.
So much value in your posts. Thank you, Haidut!
 

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