Ray Peat on Fatigue

S-VV

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
“Fatigued cells take up water, and become heavier. They also become more permeable, and leak.”

“that ATP lowers the viscosity o f a solution o f the muscle protein myosin, and that it would cause a filament formed by precipitating myosin to contract”

“Szent-Gyorgyi also demonstrated that the combination of properly balanced electron donors and electron acceptors (D-A pairs) would cause a muscle to contract.”

“Ling's emphasis is on how the inductive effect of adsorbed substances (for example, ATP and progesterone have powerful adsorptive effects) on proteins
changes the charge concentration on ionizable groups. When the charge concentration is in one configuration (more acidic), the preferred counter- ion is potassium, and in another (less acidic) configuration, it is sodium.”

“When a muscle cell is stimulated enough to cause a contraction, the interruption of its resting phase causes a shift in the charge concentration on the proteins, potassium ions are exchanged for sodium ions, calcium ions enter, and phosphate ions separate from ATP, and are replaced by the transfer of phosphate to ADP”

“Seeing the structure of the cytoplasm as something like a spring-driven mechanism, able to bounce between two states or "phases," makes it easier to see cellular fatigue as something different from the various metabolic energy sources, ATP,
glycogen, and oxygen, which--contrary to conven- tional assumptions--aren't closely tied to the functional losses occurring in fatigue.”

“With the increased movement of charged particles during the stimulation of a nerve or muscle, as one kind of counterion is exchanged for another, and the destruction of some of the water's structure, there are more opportunities for bulk dielectric water to enter cells, interfering with the arrangement of proteins, and tending to cause swelling and separation of the structural elements o f the cell.”

“With the loss of the interfacial water, the cell's high energy resting state is replaced by an active mobilization of its resources, to maintain and restore the cell's structure. Metabolic energy begins to flow into the processes of restoration, serving the function of the tapper in the earliest coherers.”

Most of the things that we think of as fatigue result from disturbances of the hydration of cells, whose sensitivity, composition, and structure change according to the extent of the disturbance. The hydration is governed by the cells' "electrical" properties, which are regulated by internal metabolic processes and by systemic processes. When cellular fatigue reaches a certain point, only the interactions of all the organs can restore stable cellular structurc and functions. The liver eliminates lactic acid and ammonia, the adrenals and gonads provide stabilizing steroids, and the brain alters activity and behavior, in ways that can reverse mosl of lhe effects of fatigue.”

“The "treatment" for intracellular fatigue consists of normalizing thyroid and steroid metabolism, and eating a diet including fruit juice, milk, some eggs or liver, and gelatin, assuring adequate calcium, potassium, sodium, and magne- sium, and using supplements of niacinamide, aspirin, and carbon dioxide when necessary. Simply increasing carbon dioxide decreases lactic
acid and ammonia, increases GABA (the sleep improving nerve inhibitor), and regulates mineral and water disposition.”
 
Last edited:

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
So many physiology ideas he just points at... So much knowledge unshared... I guess he can only write so much
 

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
Questions not answered: how is stimulation transmitted in the Ling-Peat framework? How does the neuromuscular junction work within the Association Induction Hypothesis? Does acetylcholine have an intrinsic water destabilising effect? Are ”action potentials” transmitted via the short span of bulk water between two adjacent cells? If so, how can cells become selectively sensitised to certain directions of stimulation, as occurs in the heart purkinje fibers, AV and SA nodes?
 

LLight

Member
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
804
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients seem to have lower vasopressin levels than controls.
Vasopressin seems to induce potassium uptake by cells (in rats).
Potassium is involved in water structuration in the cells?
 

Sofia2020

Member
Joined
May 25, 2020
Messages
219
For me it is clear that we want to keep extra water out of the cell. Then the cells can do their function. The things that keep extra water out of cell are minerals: calcium as primary (the content of calcium in mother's milk), magnesium, potassium (juices), salt (as in seawater, where our ancestors came from,
The six most abundant ions of seawater are chloride (Cl−), sodium (Na+), sulfate (SO24−), magnesium (Mg2+), calcium (Ca2+), and potassium (K+)). Additionally, we can use niacinamide, progesterone and other nice substances like emodin, succinic acid etc.
 

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome patients seem to have lower vasopressin levels than controls.
Vasopressin seems to induce potassium uptake by cells (in rats).
Potassium is involved in water structuration in the cells?
Yes, but the intracelular concentration of potassium is determined locally via the amount of adsorbent elements (ATP etc...) present inside the cell. These elements alter the electronegativity of ionizable groups, acidifying them and increasing their affinity for potassium.

This potassium then structures intracellular water via its relatively hydrophobic hydration shell. So while potassium is critical for cell structure its seems that its controlled via metabolic pathways. Of course, if vasopressin does increase potassium, then it may be having a stabilising effect on the cell.
 

LLight

Member
Joined
May 30, 2018
Messages
804
Have you read this?

- How the Gerson therapy heals | Gar Hildenbrand

"Whether the damage occurs by oxygen starvation, by trauma, by any type of insult, the same response occurs in cells throughout every part of the body, no matter what the tissue of origin. First the cell will lose potassium, second the cell will accept sodium, and third, the cell will swell with too much water. Such cell swelling is called cellular edema. No matter what tissue in the body, and no matter what the cause of injury, the unifying set of occurrences in the tissue damage syndrome are 1) loss of potassium, 2) acceptance of sodium, and 3) swelling with excess water to create cellular edema.​
What happens to a cell which has swollen with too much water? Inside the cell, the environment becomes inappropriate for the manufacture of energy."​
"Gerson provided a way for a damaged cell to be confronted with less sodium so that it would have an opportunity to bind some potassium, to improve its hydration by lowering its water content, and to improve its mitochondrial function."​
"Around every tumor and around every arthritic joint and in most chronic viral conditions, our tissues that have lost potassium have gained sodium and have swollen with too much water. As early as 1957, Christine Waterhouse and Albert Craig working on a National Cancer Institute grant, were able to measure water retention in cancer patients, which was a general systemic edema. Not visible, not discernible clinically, but measurable. Let me quote them from the article Body-composition and changes in patients with advanced cancer which was published in the American Cancer Society’s journal Cancer 11(6), November-December, 1957.​
Recent communications from this laboratory have emphasized that gross-weight changes in patients with advanced cancer may be minimal, even when large amounts of body fat are being lost. Under these conditions it has been shown that there may be a great gain of total body water even though there may be no detectable edema."​


It's worth being mindful in forcing hydration without nutrition:
- Water Malabsorption Syndrome?

ADH-induced potassium retention in rats with genetic diabetes insipidus

"Within the 24 hour period after ADH injection, about 300~Eq of potassium were retained by each animal. Since serum potassium concentration did not change significantly, the bulk of retained potassium must have entered compartments other than the extracellular space. Since total renal potassium content in male Wistar rats of comparable body weight is about 120~Eq (unpublished observation), any increase in renal potassium content would contribute only slightly to the compartmentalization of the retained potassium. Therefore, the bulk of the retained potassium must have entered cells of extrarenal tissues. However, this argumentation demands further experimental proof."​
It seems consistent with the fact that some cancers are associated with the Syndrome of Inappropriate Antidiuretic Hormone Secretion (SIADH).​

 

TheBeard

Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
2,404
Questions not answered: how is stimulation transmitted in the Ling-Peat framework? How does the neuromuscular junction work within the Association Induction Hypothesis? Does acetylcholine have an intrinsic water destabilising effect? Are ”action potentials” transmitted via the short span of bulk water between two adjacent cells? If so, how can cells become selectively sensitised to certain directions of stimulation, as occurs in the heart purkinje fibers, AV and SA nodes?

It all comes down to endotoxins in the end.
Take antibiotics if your issue is chronic fatigue.
 

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
It all comes down to endotoxins in the end.
Take antibiotics if your issue is chronic fatigue.
Clarythromycin wrecked me so bad a year ago Im still recovering. Only took 3 doses
 

youngsinatra

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
442
Age
22
Location
Frankfurt, Germany
Clarythromycin wrecked me so bad a year ago Im still recovering. Only took 3 doses
I also think that anti-biotics can do more harm than good for some. Had some who did one course of heavy antibiotics due to infection and ended up with severe GI issues in the long-term.
 

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
More comments about the relationship between water structure and cell function:

“After Szent-Gyorgyi moved to the U.S., in 1947, he demonstrated the effect of muscle cytoplasm on the behavior of fluorescent substances, which was analogous to that of ice, until the muscle was stimulated. During contraction, the fluorescent material behaved as it would in ordinary liquid water. This effect involved the stabilization of the excited state of electrons. This single demonstration should have caused biolo- gists to abandon the membrane theory of cellular excitation, and to return to basic physics for their understanding of cell behavior.”

This experiment by SG is yuge, since it hints at the cytoplasm being very different from bulk water in that it has the ability to transform fluorescent compounds into phosphorescent ones. This involves electron triplet stabilisation and usually occurs only in ice or supercooled liquids. That it occurs in the cytoplasm as well tells us that it is far more ordered than bulk water, having “ice like” qualities, that momentarily vanish on muscle contraction.
 

S-VV

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
580
Bioenergetics, S. Gyorgy, 1956:

“A simple experiment is the following: acridine orange is frozen in water, whereupon it shows a weak red-brown phosphores- cence coming from a relatively short- lived excitation. If a small quantity of cortisone is dissolved in the water, the lifetime becomes very long, of the order of seconds. A trace of a narcotic, such as chloroform or ether, cuts down thelife- time again to its origina] value, inviting speculation about the nature of narcosis. Similarly, the lifetime of the excitation of rhodamine in frozen water is rela- tively short, of the dimension of 10-3
second, Addition of glutathione in physi- ological concentrations prolongs it 1000- fold, which may give a clue to the role of sulfur in biological systems. One of the oldest mysterics of biology is why, in our bodies, potassium is kept inside our cells and sodium outside of them. The dimensions of the potassium ion are such that it just fits nicely into the water lattice, while sodium (which has a bigger hydrate shell) does not do so and has to cause a disturbance.”

Here Gyorgy is speculating about how the effect of molecules and drugs may not be due to receptors, but rather their effect on water structure. Very Peaty.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
David PS Ray Peat Interview Jodellfit - Dr Ray Peat - Hormone Replacement, Thyroid, Frequent Snacking, Chronic Fatigue and more Q&A Interviews 4
B Ray Peat KMUD Vaccinations, study of villages info? Interviews 5
md_a Dr. Ray Peat - Liver Health, Milk, Alcohol, and More Listener Q&A Jodellefit 41
D Hypothetical Scenario: Vaccine (with Ray Peat Diet) or No vaccine (Without Ray Peat Diet) Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 7
L Erythromelalgia vs Ray Peat's Diet Ask For Help or Advice 4
bzmazu RAY PEAT ART GALLERY Ray Peat Topics 40
L Ray Peat Interview June 2021 - DR, RP, GD - #61: Bodybuilding and Steroids | Progesterone for Men? | Basic Bioenergetic Therapies with Ray Peat Interviews 2
md_a Vitamin D, Calcium and mineral metabolism with Dr Ray Peat and Kate Deering Interviews 6
boris Ray Peat Interview Ray Peat Live Now on Patrick Timpone June 2021 Interviews 11
Mito Criticisms of the Ray Peat pro-metabolic bioenergetic nutrition strategy Ray Peat Topics 78
DojaCat Can anyone guide me to the overall best threads to help me understand the gist of ray peat Ask For Help or Advice 22
Rinse & rePeat Big Muscles Little Fat - Lose Fat The Ray Peat Way! Diet 78
V Google appears to be burying Ray Peat search results Ask For Help or Advice 14
D New Ray Peat Interview on One Radio Network / Patrick Timpone Interviews 2
DannyIrons™ Back on the Ray Peat 'Diet'. Ask For Help or Advice 22
Christopher R. Ray Peat is Not About Diet but Rather a Way of Living Life? Interviews 12
T What's the rationale behind Ray Peat drinking lidocaine to cure colitis? Digestion 21
Nemo Ray Peat Recommends This Analysis of Moon Landing Fakery Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 15
Rinse & rePeat Ray Peat & Blood Typing Cancer, Degenerative Diseases 37
M Ray peat work lunch ideas? Ask For Help or Advice 9
L Ray Peat Interview April 2021 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Bioenergetic Nutrition Basics | "The Ray Peat Diet" | Appetite and Metabolism with Ray Peat Interviews 8
David PS Ray Peat Interview All things hormones, metabolism and health with Dr Ray Peat & Emma Sgourakis Interviews 3
H All things hormones, metabolism and health with Dr Ray Peat & Emma Sgourakis Interviews 1
S Histamine intolerance explained through a Ray Peat prism Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 50
P How to get in contact with Ray Peat himself Ask For Help or Advice 4
Blaze Ray Peat dissed by Dr. Tom Cowan on Patrick Timpone show Ask For Help or Advice 28
A New to ray peat, trying a lot of haidut and Ray’s recommendations but what am I missing? Metabolism 10
C Ray Peat breakfast ideas? Diet 5
RyanHeeney I'm starting a website based on the metabolism and Dr. Ray Peat's ideas. Ray Peat Topics 28
meatbag OtBoaT Ray Peat Day 1 Transcript-Personal Background, Influences, and View of Reality and Organisms Audio Interview Transcripts 1
D Anti-Peat Thoughts on this Video by a carnivore attacking the ray peat diet (Harry Serpanos) Debate - Anti-Peat 6
Grapelander #50: DHT for Hair Growth? | New Ray Peat Interviews | Keto and Mitochondria | Childhood Trauma Interviews 14
Grapelander Ray Peat on the Coronavirus, Immunity,& Vaccines Part 4_08.08.2020 Politics and Science Radio Show 1
SuperStressed Ray Peat Interview Dr. Ray Peat, Day One: Full Interview from On the Back of a Tiger Interviews 71
Sam321 Ray Peat inspired mayo Diet 8
D Ray Peat Search down? Interviews 3
D Complete list Ray Peat newsletters Articles & Newsletters 3
L Ray Peat Interview Jan 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - #47: The Power Elite | Vaccines | Hair Loss | UFOs | Surviving The Great Reset Interviews 102
J How does Ray Peat make coffee? Ask For Help or Advice 8
Inaut Ray Peat Torrent Resources 12
joshquintanilla Anti-Peat New Soundbite- Jack Kruse on Ray Peat Debate - Anti-Peat 47
L Ray Peat Interview Dec 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Body Temperature, Current Events, Etc. Interviews 21
Simatta Ray Peat-Inspired Infographic Diet, Recipes 52
livesimply Available EBooks Directly From Ray Peat Book Recommendations 0
L Ray Peat Interview Nov 2020 - Danny Roddy, Ray Peat, Georgi Dinkov - Bioenergetics, Thyroid, Stress, News Interviews 8
Hgreen56 Ray Peat (high Sugar) Diet Works Only Temporarily (?) Diet 3
B Ray Peat, William Blake Thesis 1960 Book Recommendations 1
JayDee 2020.01.20 : Dr. Ray Peat On Cosmology & Transforming Society | Cooperation Paradigm Audio Interview Transcripts 1
JayDee 2020.06.10 : Jodellefit : Dr Ray Peat Q&A - Weight Loss, Stretch Marks, Hydrogen, Negative Ions Audio Interview Transcripts 4
RealNeat "Search By Word" Ray Peat Transcripts + Emails Resources 12

Similar threads

Top